gestalt with LA [Archive] - Wizards Community

gestalt with LA [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GoodTeletubby
01-29-05, 09:26 PM How does the gestalt interact with templates with level adjustments? I don't think the LA should be as high because they lose more from each level lost than a normal charachter, but I don't know how it should be dealt with. My char may end up being a rogue/fighter 3 werewolf, which adds 2HD and +2 LA, but i can't figure out how that should work, should he end up taking only one class level each time he should level up so that he slowly fill up the other side of the progression made up by the templare? or just remove the LA and have the two HD count as an animalHD/LA level, so that the animal HD takes up one class slot, and the LA takes up the other, so he ends up ECL 5?

Any ideas?
Kintara
01-29-05, 10:22 PM Paying for the HD and LA on the same side is asking for trouble. Lots of trouble. Taking HD on one side and paying for your LA on the other is asking for even more trouble.

Personally, I'm not entirely sure how to deal with it. One way is to recalculate the LA. The good thing about this method is that it's on the most solid ground.

The trouble with other methods is that they're very easy to abuse. If you pay for the HD and LA on one side and take a class on the other, then you open a box of problems. The first one is that losing one half of a gestalt progression is hardly the same thing as losing a whole level. You still get everything associated with having a class level, you just don't get quite as much. Losing "half" of your progression is hardly half of the benefits of gaining a level. Plus, monster HD aren't usually comparable to PC class levels, so they get more benefit out of being paired with one. The other trouble is that ECL for monsters is balanced on the asssumption that you don't get class levels. If you could maintain a full spellcasting progression on top of the benefits of the monster abilities, for instance, then maybe the LA would have been calculated differently. It opens up options that the balancing process hadn't considered.

Paying the monster HD and LA concurrently is simply too inconsistent to be balanced. If there is a different number of HD in comparison to the LA, then you might run into the above problem of "paying" for the LA with one half of a gestalt progression. If they're more even, it can be even more problematic. You see, imagine an ECL 6 Hound Archon/Paladin 1 (HD on one side, LA and Paladin 1 on the other).... The trouble with that is that you're playing a normal ECL 11 (12, really) creature as a gestalt level 6 character. I think it's obvious that that isn't balanced. Now, you could enforce a minimum level of the monster's normal ECL for gestalts, but it doesn't really fix the problem.

So, my answer is that LAs are a ***** with gestalts.
strenoth
01-30-05, 01:18 AM Me, I just simply treat ALL racial levels (HD and LAs) as the same class, and allow it to be gestalted with normal classes.
Kintara
01-30-05, 01:42 AM Me, I just simply treat ALL racial levels (HD and LAs) as the same class, and allow it to be gestalted with normal classes.Personally, I think LA loses too much of its balancing punch if you do this. Losing levels to LA is a big penalty. Losing half of a gestalt is a lot less so, especially if you play to your niche.
Lord_Anthrax
01-30-05, 07:18 AM Let characters with LA(especially those with racial HD)buy off their LA at the rate of 1 for every 3 character levels instead of requiring (LA x3)class levels to buy it down by 1.
Gilean
01-30-05, 12:33 PM Replace LA with greater amounts of monster HD. Then gestalt normally.
MJ the Prophet
02-01-05, 11:04 PM Or, if you're willing to take the trouble, put together a monster class with the rules from Savage Species. Your DM will have to rule on how to deal with the odd HD/feat/skill/ability bonus progression, but I'm planning on running a gestalt campaign, and its doable that way. You may end up a little high-powered, but that's the idea for a gestalt game anyway, isn't it?
Korimyr the Rat
02-09-05, 01:00 PM I allow monsters to gestalt their monster HD (unless they're Dragons or Outsiders) with their Favored Class-- most monsters with high HD don't have spellcasters as Favored Classes, and those that do typically also have inordinately high LAs.

I don't allow LA to be Gestalted at all, but I do try to relax it somewhat-- around 1/3 level, more or less depending on how the monster balances with the FC and where it stands within its level.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GoodTeletubby 01-29-05, 09:26 PM	How does the gestalt interact with templates with level adjustments? I don't think the LA should be as high because they lose more from each level lost than a normal charachter, but I don't know how it should be dealt with. My char may end up being a rogue/fighter 3 werewolf, which adds 2HD and +2 LA, but i can't figure out how that should work, should he end up taking only one class level each time he should level up so that he slowly fill up the other side of the progression made up by the templare? or just remove the LA and have the two HD count as an animalHD/LA level, so that the animal HD takes up one class slot, and the LA takes up the other, so he ends up ECL 5? Any ideas?
Kintara 01-29-05, 10:22 PM	Paying for the HD and LA on the same side is asking for trouble. Lots of trouble. Taking HD on one side and paying for your LA on the other is asking for even more trouble. Personally, I'm not entirely sure how to deal with it. One way is to recalculate the LA. The good thing about this method is that it's on the most solid ground. The trouble with other methods is that they're very easy to abuse. If you pay for the HD and LA on one side and take a class on the other, then you open a box of problems. The first one is that losing one half of a gestalt progression is hardly the same thing as losing a whole level. You still get everything associated with having a class level, you just don't get quite as much. Losing "half" of your progression is hardly half of the benefits of gaining a level. Plus, monster HD aren't usually comparable to PC class levels, so they get more benefit out of being paired with one. The other trouble is that ECL for monsters is balanced on the asssumption that you don't get class levels. If you could maintain a full spellcasting progression on top of the benefits of the monster abilities, for instance, then maybe the LA would have been calculated differently. It opens up options that the balancing process hadn't considered. Paying the monster HD and LA concurrently is simply too inconsistent to be balanced. If there is a different number of HD in comparison to the LA, then you might run into the above problem of "paying" for the LA with one half of a gestalt progression. If they're more even, it can be even more problematic. You see, imagine an ECL 6 Hound Archon/Paladin 1 (HD on one side, LA and Paladin 1 on the other).... The trouble with that is that you're playing a normal ECL 11 (12, really) creature as a gestalt level 6 character. I think it's obvious that that isn't balanced. Now, you could enforce a minimum level of the monster's normal ECL for gestalts, but it doesn't really fix the problem. So, my answer is that LAs are a ***** with gestalts.
strenoth 01-30-05, 01:18 AM	Me, I just simply treat ALL racial levels (HD and LAs) as the same class, and allow it to be gestalted with normal classes.
Kintara 01-30-05, 01:42 AM	Me, I just simply treat ALL racial levels (HD and LAs) as the same class, and allow it to be gestalted with normal classes.Personally, I think LA loses too much of its balancing punch if you do this. Losing levels to LA is a big penalty. Losing half of a gestalt is a lot less so, especially if you play to your niche.
Lord_Anthrax 01-30-05, 07:18 AM	Let characters with LA(especially those with racial HD)buy off their LA at the rate of 1 for every 3 character levels instead of requiring (LA x3)class levels to buy it down by 1.
Gilean 01-30-05, 12:33 PM	Replace LA with greater amounts of monster HD. Then gestalt normally.
MJ the Prophet 02-01-05, 11:04 PM	Or, if you're willing to take the trouble, put together a monster class with the rules from Savage Species. Your DM will have to rule on how to deal with the odd HD/feat/skill/ability bonus progression, but I'm planning on running a gestalt campaign, and its doable that way. You may end up a little high-powered, but that's the idea for a gestalt game anyway, isn't it?
Korimyr the Rat 02-09-05, 01:00 PM	I allow monsters to gestalt their monster HD (unless they're Dragons or Outsiders) with their Favored Class-- most monsters with high HD don't have spellcasters as Favored Classes, and those that do typically also have inordinately high LAs. I don't allow LA to be Gestalted at all, but I do try to relax it somewhat-- around 1/3 level, more or less depending on how the monster balances with the FC and where it stands within its level.