Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rwb 02-25-04, 11:21 PM	Is it any worse than the already higher power level to allow these?
CompleteSatori 02-26-04, 01:06 AM	There isnt any 'worse', the fact is that a Savage Progression is the same as the whole Race/Template/ECL taken all at once, so there is no overpower, and if you were building a character with Racial HD, you would build those HD concurrently with an additional character level per Gestalt anyways. Reverse creation using the straight templates or races is no worse or better than playing through levels of Savage Progression. And certainly no more powerful than a standard Hero class build, since those templates have an ECL to move them to the balance point of power with a character of their level/HD.
Baron Phylos 02-26-04, 01:18 AM	Maybe not too powerful, but you can get yourself some insanely effective builds if you combine monster strengths with classes. Pretty sure a Pixie/Rogue Assassin is a pretty nasty thing to have around.
CompleteSatori 02-26-04, 01:22 AM	Yes, but you cant create a good model of game balance based on a few good concepts, its the overall effect on gameplay that matters. Anyone on the CO board (myself included) can optimize the hells out of a class/race/template combination, but thats not to say that its unbalanced, we just pick and choose.
Banpai 02-26-04, 07:03 PM	Do you mean that you can take a class level for each racial hd and after the progression is complete ether more racial hd and a class level for each or class level and class level or special gestalt PrC?
rwb 02-26-04, 09:05 PM	No I was referring to balancing a savage progression where on some levels no hit die, no increase in BAB or saves is given with the other class in the Gestalt combination. In this case you could take any templates at thier LA and because you are also progressing in a class you don't miss any HD etc..
Archangel 02-27-04, 09:19 AM	But how do you balance monsters? Do you now have Ogre 4/Barbarian 4?
JoAT 02-27-04, 09:35 AM	Originally posted by rwb No I was referring to balancing a savage progression where on some levels no hit die, no increase in BAB or saves is given with the other class in the Gestalt combination. In this case you could take any templates at thier LA and because you are also progressing in a class you don't miss any HD etc.. This is a problem, though, when attempting to gestalt with a savage progression, or anything similar - a hit die less level - an LA, essentially, is supposed to help balance out the rest of the character - otherwise, it would have abilities that could well be too powerful for normal play. However, with a gestalt, the weakness of the LA feature would be totally eliminated - not only would you gain all of the abilities of the LA (whcih are basicly class abilites, put together at a hit dieless level to help balance them out, meaning that they would be more powerful than a standard level if given with a hit die), but all of the abilities of the gestalted class and it's hit die, and corrposponding progressions. This is not a good thing. Once you look that over, it is then worth takeing into account the fact that, nominally, at least, most LAs and ECLs are somewhat whacked - either weaker than they should be (most normal cases), or stronger than they should be (things like half-ogres and the feral template). Because of this, at the momment, I'm putting together (on a case by case basis) gestalt progressions for races/templates that eitehr I, or someone in my campaign is likely to play (no need to go through all that work for mere monsters, though). As a general rule, what I'm trying to work off of is combining hit dice, either in terms of racial/paragon classes, or in terms of monster type hit dice, with the progression, and then examining and rebalanceing them until they each fill a full gestalt level - takeing up both slots, as it were - in order to simplify matters (and besides, I still don't like how things progress under savage progression sometimes...) It's begining to look like it'll work out fairly well, as long as you ignore the fact that some of these gestalted races may end up with less hit dice than they have listed in the MM...
Gestalt_Commoner 02-27-04, 10:26 AM	whut is savege?
The Simple Seeker II 02-27-04, 11:10 AM	Originally posted by Gestalt_Commoner whut is savege? http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=128
Gestalt_Commoner 02-27-04, 11:32 AM	o thx!! i betar hide dat from mi plaers :D
The Simple Seeker II 02-27-04, 11:37 AM	Originally posted by Gestalt_Commoner o thx!! i betar hide dat from mi plaers :D If they have access to the internet, it cannot be stopped, unless, it is you that has the only PC around.
CompleteSatori 02-27-04, 12:34 PM	Originally posted by Archangel But how do you balance monsters? Do you now have Ogre 4/Barbarian 4? No actually Archangel. The only things that change in a Gestalt game are creatures or NPCs with Class levels, those are turned into Gestalt builds. So your Hero level NPCs would all be Gestalt, but monsters remain the same. The balance for monsters is this: Raise the CR of the party by +1 for individual monsters that have combat based purely on damage or few save related spells/Su/Sp etc, and raise party CR by +2 for save intensive creatures. The best example is the one posted in the book, a Medusa. A dangerous melee combatant, to be sure, but moreso, save or die. Now your Gestalt characters are much more likely to have very strong saves, so this is less of a challenge. So that Medusa, normally a CR 7, becomes a virtual CR 5 for combat with Gestalt characters. Now heres the trick, the parties experience remains the same, if you wish to level them fast, and while you built the combat around their apparent power level, they gain xp as if the CR of each creature was what it originally was, a CR 7.
Pagan priest 02-27-04, 03:15 PM	I just started running a ghaele from SS, and as soon as I saw what gestalt characters were, I realized that it was a perect match. If you are not familiar with it, a ghaele gets a total of 10 hit dice over 20 levels, leaving a fairly powerful character with a glass jaw. So combine that with say, barbarian for d12 hit die every level, perhaps with the frenzy option instead of rage and you've got a nice strong, survivable character. At some levels, he will get 8 + int for skill points, at others it will be only 2+ int, 7 feats instead of only 4, a couple of more skills on the in class list. Yeah, using gestatl with SS would be fairly strong. At the moment, I don't see it as being any worse than more standard gestalt characters. If you are using gestalt characters and the campaign could support any of the savage progression types, they would be a natural fit.
rwb 02-28-04, 04:05 PM	If using savage progressions isn't any more powered than "normal" gestalt builds, how about template classes like the ones SKR has been posting. By getting full HD, skill, BAB and Save progressions for the other "Class" there seems to be less reason not to take on certain templates now.
Banpai 02-29-04, 05:00 AM	The reason why SS gestalts are way stronger IMO than standart gestalts is stat these classes are balanced with other standart classes by their ECL. The Ghaele mentioned already is a balanced class/race chause it pays for his powers a very hard price = LA + 10! If you allow them to take a class level for every monster class level then you basically negate the LA and that definitely disrupts balance. The fact that certain monsters from SS have huge stat boni do really adds insult to injury. Now the final question what would you rather play, a Ghaele/Fighter with cleric PrC after level 14 or a Cleric / Fighter with any powerfull combinations of PrCs? I would even consider taking a Ghaele/Fighter or preferably something that adds more than just HD and feats to a Ghale)something other with only 10 HD against another Gestalt.
Mommy was an Orc 02-29-04, 11:50 AM	Savage Species incorporates ECL into a leveled out build. You still need to put the level adjustment into the other class. Which means you only get class levels when you gain monster hit dice. Originally posted by Pagan priest I just started running a ghaele from SS, and as soon as I saw what gestalt characters were, I realized that it was a perect match. If you are not familiar with it, a ghaele gets a total of 10 hit dice over 20 levels, leaving a fairly powerful character with a glass jaw. So combine that with say, barbarian for d12 hit die every level, perhaps with the frenzy option instead of rage and you've got a nice strong, survivable character. At some levels, he will get 8 + int for skill points, at others it will be only 2+ int, 7 feats instead of only 4, a couple of more skills on the in class list.
Banpai 02-29-04, 01:15 PM	:D Thanks so much thats exactly what I wanted to say.:D
Mommy was an Orc 02-29-04, 02:14 PM	No problem - otherwise, who wouldn't play an Astral Deva/Sorcerer(or Wizard)?? +20 BAB(Astral Devas usually gain +1 BAB on the odd levels, Sorcerers on the even levels) and +52 stats, and that's not even counting all the various freebies... Originally posted by Banpai :D Thanks so much thats exactly what I wanted to say.:D
jagggar 03-01-04, 05:55 PM	Originally posted by Mommy was an Orc Savage Species incorporates ECL into a leveled out build. You still need to put the level adjustment into the other class. Which means you only get class levels when you gain monster hit dice. At least in my head, that doesn't seem properly balanced. Either you'd be changing all monster classes to have a number of levels equal to their HD which would make them too powerful, or you'd be giving them ablilties only for the monster class level when they only gain the level which is underpowered. Or would you balance the latter by giving them their class features without the HD/BAB/Saves? A Gestalt Ogre/Cleric would have 4HD, +4 good saves, +1 bad saves, skills to go along with the HD, all the appropriate Ogre ablities, and cast/know spells and turn undead as a 6th level cleric?
Mommy was an Orc 03-01-04, 08:08 PM	Try thinking of it in terms of being a Drow. That's a +2 ECL for good stats, spell resistance, and some other things. That doesn't make them able to be a 20th level one class/18th level in the other. It makes them 18th/18th. Same thing goes for Ogre: 4HD, 4 levels of Cleric. It isn't difficult to use a Fighter/Rogue multiclass to get a +17 BAB/18th level Clerical caster at 20th level with 4 dice of sneak attack damage. Tossing in the +10 strength/+4 Con, it will be at least the equivalent of any human melee build and capable of casting 9th level spells. They don't need the extra two levels of Cleric to be equivalent... Originally posted by jagggar At least in my head, that doesn't seem properly balanced. Either you'd be changing all monster classes to have a number of levels equal to their HD which would make them too powerful, or you'd be giving them ablilties only for the monster class level when they only gain the level which is underpowered. Or would you balance the latter by giving them their class features without the HD/BAB/Saves? A Gestalt Ogre/Cleric would have 4HD, +4 good saves, +1 bad saves, skills to go along with the HD, all the appropriate Ogre ablities, and cast/know spells and turn undead as a 6th level cleric?
jagggar 03-01-04, 09:24 PM	I'm starting to see your point. Though the drow naturally has no racial HD (other than the one that is replaced by the first class level. Would you mind typing it out, how the character would progress using the drow Savage Progression? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a
Mommy was an Orc 03-01-04, 11:10 PM	Not too difficult. Let's pretend someone's a drow cleric/wizard Level 1: Drow 0/Cleric/Wizard 1/1 Level 7: Drow 0/Cleric 7/Wizard 7 Level 8: Drow 1/Cleric 7/Wizard 7 Level 14: Drow 1/Cleric 13/Wizard 13 Level 15: Drow 2/Cleric 13/Wizard 13 Level 20: Drow 2/Cleric 18/Wizard 18 The really good example is the Astral Deva/Wizard - +20 BAB - Astral Deva gets +1 BAB every odd level, Wizards get +1 every even level. Toss in +52 stats, great immunities/spell resistance, etc... But, if they only get a wizard level for every racial hit die, they're only 12th level wizards with +12 BAB. Which doesn't sound that hot, but how often do you average a base of 17 before applying point buy? Originally posted by jagggar I'm starting to see your point. Though the drow naturally has no racial HD (other than the one that is replaced by the first class level. Would you mind typing it out, how the character would progress using the drow Savage Progression? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a
cdmonish 03-02-04, 05:40 PM	MommyWasAnOrc, Is this then a build for a Mindflayer (without regard to optimization)? Mindflayer (with 8HD+7LA)/Monk5/Wizard13 Also, how would you account for the Spell Resistance of the Mind Flayer (IIRC, 25+class levels, although I don't have a MM with me)? I'm guessing you would count only those levels after the ECL15 of a Flayer for a SR of 30. Also, how would you handle the Ghaele Eladrin (10HD + 10LA)/Cleric10? Since the Ghaele casts as a 14th level Cleric, would this Gestalt combo cast as a 24th level Cleric? I'm trying to come up with a soluation before a campaign. Good input all around.
ikki 03-02-04, 06:15 PM	or mindflayer 15/xxx8/Illithid savant 7 ;) or for the ghaele... 20/cleric 20. (cleric 34) Just thats its wasted as same abilities do not copy... Otherwise the cleric/cleric would ROCK! However, a ghaele 20/Wizard 14/Theurge 6 should work.. ;)
Mommy was an Orc 03-02-04, 06:33 PM	Mindflayer: yes, exactly right. Ghaele: One of two rulings should take place: They can't gestalt with cleric as they're already members of the class. You can't be a gestalt cleric/cleric. I'd go with this one myself. They can gestalt with cleric, but as they're happening in the same level, they don't stack. So they could have the caster power of a cleric 14, but then also be a cleric 10. mindflayer 15/xxx8/Illithid savant 7 doesn't work. You could be a mindflayer 15/Illithid Savant 5/xxx13. The Savage Species prestige class was written with the idea that you cannot go up in another class until after you finish out the monster class and that you are likely competing with epic level characters when you finish it off. Which is why it is so powerful. Originally posted by cdmonish MommyWasAnOrc, Is this then a build for a Mindflayer (without regard to optimization)? Mindflayer (with 8HD+7LA)/Monk5/Wizard13 Also, how would you account for the Spell Resistance of the Mind Flayer (IIRC, 25+class levels, although I don't have a MM with me)? I'm guessing you would count only those levels after the ECL15 of a Flayer for a SR of 30. Also, how would you handle the Ghaele Eladrin (10HD + 10LA)/Cleric10? Since the Ghaele casts as a 14th level Cleric, would this Gestalt combo cast as a 24th level Cleric? I'm trying to come up with a soluation before a campaign. Good input all around.
Banpai 03-02-04, 06:45 PM	The cleric/cleric as well as theurges dont work - forbidden by the rule. The Ghaele question is a little bit more difficult, it mainly depends on if you are using the SS class (otherwise this would become very difficult) or not. Acording to SS you get a level of spell casting at every class level till level 14 after that you get two more HD you can certainly take two more levels of cleric or another PrC. Taking levels of cleric with the first 8 hd would not advance spellcasting , it only gives class skills armor and shield profiencies and turn undead ( I would not say that you would get 2 more domains). While itīs not possible to gain a caster level above 20 with the Ghaele IMO itīs certainly possible wiht other combinations though the DM should make a ruling on this before the game starts.
cdmonish 03-02-04, 06:46 PM	I was thinking the same thing about like classes not stacking. The character in question was going to play a Rakshasa and wanted multiple sorcerer levels. I'm going to allow Rakshasa (7hd+7la)Sorcerer6/XX13. While it doesn't overcome some of the rediculously high LA's (the +7 for the Ogre Mage for example), gestalt at least makes Monster PC's a little more playable. It can be quite a benefit for some of the more powerful melee races. Giants for example. Given that fire giants have 15HD and only a +4 LA, you could make a pretty powerful melee cleric along the lines of FireGiant/Fighter1/Cleric16.
Cathon 03-02-04, 06:50 PM	If I ever do gestalt in a campaign, I plan to house rule that any class based stat gain is tied to Base Attack. So you could have the BAB and Stat Gain from one class, but not the stat gain from one class and the BAB gain from another. I'd hate to see the Warhulk/Barbarian Gestalt Ogre otherwise...
CompleteSatori 03-03-04, 12:15 AM	Well that whole bit about Cleric/Ghaele is actually a bit tricky, as stated in the SS, creatures with virtual casting levels can take that class and those caster levels stack to determine spells per day etc etc, and there is also something else in there about CR changes when stacking caster levels on monsters, but that doesn't apply here. I would go with the previously mentioned rule that the Ghaele can't take a Cleric level until after its 14th level of Monster progression, as that is what the SS advancement gives you (Caster level every level to 14).
Mommy was an Orc 03-03-04, 01:00 AM	The problem with that is not every monster has spellcasting levels tied to class levels or at every level. Lillend as an example, doesn't actually gain any bardic casting abilities at levels 1, 3, or 11, but does gain a Hit Die at those levels. Trumpet does the same at level 1 with cleric, meaning he could be a 5th level cleric caster at 2nd level. Rakhasa at 1st level. Aranea at 1st level. Really tricky are the ones where HD has little to do with the caster level - Brass/Copper Dragons could in theory end up with a caster level of 19 if the sorcerer levels came on the +ECL levels. I think the other rule is a lot simpler - you can't advance in other classes(i.e. benefits gained from your monster class) until you finish out your monster class. Originally posted by CompleteSatori Well that whole bit about Cleric/Ghaele is actually a bit tricky, as stated in the SS, creatures with virtual casting levels can take that class and those caster levels stack to determine spells per day etc etc, and there is also something else in there about CR changes when stacking caster levels on monsters, but that doesn't apply here. I would go with the previously mentioned rule that the Ghaele can't take a Cleric level until after its 14th level of Monster progression, as that is what the SS advancement gives you (Caster level every level to 14).
Pagan priest 03-03-04, 01:54 PM	My point in mentioning the ghaele/xxx gestalt was the posibility that the gestatl could cover for a serious weakness in the ghaele SS progression... sucky hit points at higher level. For me at least, the ideal build would be something like ghaele 20/barbarian 14/cleric 6. Maybe substitute a PrC that gives +1 caster level for actual levels in cleric.
sirmeatball 03-03-04, 06:17 PM	Maybe if used with a creature that has a level adjustment, at levels where your creature class would not grant a HD, you use the HD of the other class, but lowered by 2. A d12 becomes a d8, a d10 becomes d6, ect. A d6 would then (in my mind) become a d2 and a d4 is 1 hp. The end effect is better for avoiding effects based on HD, because you still have them, but your total HP are a little less, as they should be for takeing a LA race
CompleteSatori 03-04-04, 01:45 AM	If you guys want to Acid Test a good monster/class combo... Heres my Ghaele/Dood. Strength- 36/+13 Dexterity- 18/+4 Constitution- 24/+6 Intelligence- 24/+6 Wisdom- 26/+7 Charisma- 24/+6 Saves - 19/11/20 (39/30/43 Grace/Circle/Resist/Haste) AC - 10+3dex+4def+1dodge+14nat+13ar = 45/10+13def+4dex HD - 20d10+120+20 = 300 (354 with Divine Vigor & Divine Favor) Move - 75', 190'fly (perfect) Base Attack - 20/15/10/5 (45/45/40/35/30) Skill Points - 262 @ 20th level Fighter4/Ranger1/Anointed Knight10/Holy Liberator5/Ghaele 20 Fighter1/Ghaele1* Power Attack/ Versatile (Knowledge (Arcana), Spellcraft) Fighter2/Ghaele2* Extend Spell/ Improved Initiative (Granted Power) Fighter3/Ghaele3* Ancestral Weapon (Greatsword)/ Strike of Vengeance (Granted Power) Fighter4/Ghaele4* Iron Will, +1 Charisma Ranger1/Ghaele5* Favored Enemy (Evil Outsider), Track, Wild Empathy AnointK1/Ghaele6 Anoint Self (DR 3/-)/ Dodge AnointK2/Ghaele7* Anoint Weapon (+10 Hardness) AnointK3/Ghaele8 Mobility, +1 Strength AnointK4/Ghaele9* Anoint Self (Combat Reflexes)/ Persistent Spell AnointK5/Ghaele10 Anoint Weapon (+50 Hp) AnointK6/Ghaele11 Spring Attack AnointK7/Ghaele12* Anoint Self (Inspired Strike)/ Reserves of Strength, +1 Strength AnointK8/Ghaele13 Anoint Weapon (Good Weapon) AnointK9/Ghaele14 Cleave AnointK10/Ghaele15* Anoint Self (Deep Strike)/ Improved Toughness HolyLib1/Ghaele16 Detect Evil, Resist Enchantment, +1 Wisdom HolyLib2/Ghaele17 Divine Grace, Smite Evil 1/day HolyLib3/Ghaele18* Turn Undead, Immunity to Charm and Compulsion/ Divine Vigor HolyLib4/Ghaele19 --- HolyLib5/Ghaele20 Celestial Companion, +1 Wisdom (Note- * denotes Outsider HD skill points) Special Attacks: Gaze (Su)- Slay evil of 5Hd or less (dc21), or Fear for 2d10rds. Nonevil, or higher HD save vs Fear (dc21) for 2d10rds. Light Ray (Ex)- Ranged touch 300', 2d12 damage. Special Qualities: Alternate Form- Incorporeal Globe of light. Damage Reduction 10/Evil & Cold Iron, DR 3/-, Protection from Arrows, Darkvision 60', Low-Light Vision, SR28, Immune to Elec.& Petrification, Cold resist 10 Fire resist 25, Tongues, Protective Aura. Spell Like Abilities- At Will: Aid, Charm Monster(dc20), Color Spray(dc17), Comprehend Languages, Continual Flame, Cure Light Wounds, Dancing Lights, Detect Evil, Detect Thoughts(dc18), Disguise Self, Dispel Magic, Hold Monster(dc21), Greater Invisibility, Major Image(dc19), See Invisible, Greater Teleport. (True Sight, Dimension Door CL9th) 1/day: Chain Lightning(dc22), Prismatic Spray(dc23) Restribution/Time Domains Divine Casting- 14th 0- 6 1- 7+1 Shield of Faith/ True Strike 2- 7+1 Endurance/ Gentle Repose 3- 6+1 Speak With Dead/ Haste 4- 6+1 Fire Shield / Freedom of Movement 5- 4+1 Mark of Justice/ Permanency 6- 4+1 Banishment/ Contingency 7- 3+1 Spell Turning/ Mass Haste Gear- +5 Adamant Holy Keen GhostTouch Truesilver Greatsword (Hardness 30, 90 Hp), +5 Mithril Shifting Full Plate of Soul Radiance, Bead of Karma x2, Greater Vestments of Power, Belt of Magnificence +6. Divine Power(Persisted 5th) Divine Favor (Persisted 5th) Resist Energy (Acid 30 6th) Resist Energy (Sonic 30 6th)
Banpai 03-04-04, 06:17 PM	Sorry that I ask but what do you want to prove with this example? Its shows pretty good how powerfull it would be to give the ghaele so many more HD. BtW if you already chose two of the most powerfull domains ( only two grand them one is a sleeping god on the astral plane and the other is some kind of strange elven god) why donīt you continue the cleric spellcasting with a nice PrC?
CDW22 03-05-04, 01:02 PM	For my Savage Gestalts, each HD, choose a class, you advance in that class as a normal Gestalt, combining whatnot. This works very well for the most part, as a Rakshasa could actually have a 20th CL, and it helps out quite a bit of the more fragile classes, like the Mind Flayer, who gains 8 levels out of it. On the Ghaele: They are just way too freaking overpowered to begin with, I won't allow them, but, if I did, they hit a glass ceiling at 20th level Cleric, they can't go epic until 21st level.
CompleteSatori 03-05-04, 01:15 PM	Banpai, Im not actually trying to prove anything, I built a Ghaele on several of the methods discussed here in this thread, and just wanted to post a build that is straight out of the books so that the people here could see an example, maybe even acid test it. Its a power check, nothing more. I chose not to take a clerical PrC on that build because it did not serve the purpose for the NPC I was making. This guy is only optimized in the direction that he would be used in my Epic campaign.
Alien Rope Burn 03-09-04, 06:58 PM	Here's my thoughts on it. The big issue, at least to me, is that LA / ECL becomes less worthwhile that it used to when gestalt classes are available. LA is figured based on the 'worth' of a given class level to a PC, but gestalt classes change that worth. Is the single level required to become a tiefling really worth it anymore, for example? It's a rather tough call, but I would say not in the slightest. My tenative solution is just to try and come up with a way to refigure LA (and to a certain extent, ECL as a whole) based on gestalt classes. It's probably one of the more work-intensive solutions, but the alternatives just seem to throw the balance of monsters off one way or the other to me. Comments?
JoAT 03-10-04, 04:46 AM	Originally posted by Alien Rope Burn Here's my thoughts on it. The big issue, at least to me, is that LA / ECL becomes less worthwhile that it used to when gestalt classes are available. LA is figured based on the 'worth' of a given class level to a PC, but gestalt classes change that worth. Is the single level required to become a tiefling really worth it anymore, for example? It's a rather tough call, but I would say not in the slightest. My tenative solution is just to try and come up with a way to refigure LA (and to a certain extent, ECL as a whole) based on gestalt classes. It's probably one of the more work-intensive solutions, but the alternatives just seem to throw the balance of monsters off one way or the other to me. Comments? This is pretty much my take on the issue as well - just combining the LA.ECL with class levels will lead to some balance issues... and look kinda, well, weird. On the other hand the suggestion I've seen earlier, which seems (if I understnad it correctly), to say that you take the LA and apply it to the combined gestalt levels, and let the hit dice combine with the class levels seems to me to take a mechanic that's already somewhat underpowered, and give it even less. When looking at Gestalt monsters, I generally try to just to approximate the actual monster, changing things around slightly, and make it so that the entire LA/ECL works for the (more powerful) levels... Errrrr... That sounds kinda weird, so instead, I'll put up an example I made up durring my break at work today... Errr. yesterday... or whatever...: Troll Base Troll: 2 claws, 1 bite (natural weapons, each does 1d4), +2 Str, +2 Con, Int -4, Wis -2, Cha -4. Lowlight Vision, Dark Vision. Speed 30. BAB: Medium, as Cleric. Hit dice: d8. Skill points: 2+Int bonus Class skills: Listen and Spot. Class (Race) Defence Bonus: +0 (Sorry. No PC class, no Dex type defensive features, no CDB). Good Fort Save. Weapons and Armor: Proficent with Simple and Martial Weapons. (Since I'm using weapon groups, the translates to Basic, plus Thrown+sling group, and two of choice). No Armor Proficeny. Level 1 Scent, Large size, Regneration 1, +2 Str, +2 Con, +1 Natural Armor. Level 2 Rend, Regneration 2, +2 Str, +2 Con, +1 Natural Armor. Level 3 Regeneration 3, +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Dex, +1 Natural Armor. Level 4 Improved Natural weapons (d4 becomes d6) Regeneration 4, +2 Str, +2 Con, +1 Natural Armor. Level 5 Regeneration 5, +2 Str, +2 Con, +1 Natural Armor. Now, I know that it's missing a hit die, but as I said, I'm just aproximatign things - the fact that the PC troll goes up levels in troll without being born into being a troll is something of a weirdness with the rules, so I think they can be bent to drop a hit die without dying from it. Now, anyways, when I acid test this kind of thing, what I look at isn't really what kind of class (or class combo, since we're using gestalt), would fit best with the race, which is somewhat difficult anyways, given teh number of gestalt combinations. Rather, I tend to look towards what class combo would seem closest to the race. With something like a troll, though, it's hard - the best combo I could thing of would be something along the lines of a Barbarian/Monk or a Barbarian/Fighter. Since Barbarian/Monk is kinda an illegal combo, let's try it with a Barbarian/Fighter. First level : Troll - Regen 1, Scent ability, +1 to Natural Armor, -1 to AC (net benifit 0 ), +1 to atack, -1 to attack (net benefit 0), +1 to damage, 1d8+1 hit points, +3 to fort save, natural reach, proficiency in 3 weapon groups, 8 skill points. Also gains +1 to all Str and Con related skills, and an increased carrying capacity. Can be attacked by more creatures, and must squeeze through smaller areas. First level : Barb/Fighter - 1 Bonus feat, proficency in 4 weapon groups (maybe more depending on your ruleing), proficiency in all armor, +1 to attack, 2 reserve points (personal house rule - Fighters have 2+con mod reserve points/level), Rage ability, + 10' movement, +2 Fort Saves, 16 skill points +1d12 hit points, +1 to AC. Is not illiterate (because of fighter gestalt). So far, I think it looks fairly equal - this may be due, in part to the Class Defence Bonus, Weapon Group and Reserve points house rules I use, though. You'll note that instead of coming out and saying +2 to strength, I attempt to divide it up into the actual numbers involved. Just my personal, strange little thing. One reason I'm saying this is balanced so far, is that the Troll's regenertion has them taking normal damage from fire - a very common energy type among enemies, as far as I've seen. Anyways, to continue. Troll 2 - Rend ability, Regen 2, +2 to attack, +2 to fort saves, +1d8+3 hit points, +1 to damage, +1 to AC, 2 skill points. +1 to all Str and Con skills, Slightly increased carrying load. Barb/Fighter 2 - Bonus Feat, 2 Reserve points, Uncanny Dodge ability, +1 to attack, +1 to Fort Saves, 1d12 hit points, +1 AC, 4 skill points. I'd say that it looks like the troll might be somewhat better here - Redn's fairly nice, though, given the natural weapons, and the fact that my campaign uses both the Armor as DR and the Armor Conversion rules (yes, armor is very nice), it'll take some time for a Troll to get through some of the higher armored creatures... Anyways... Troll 3 - Regen 3, +2 to attack, +1 to Fort saves, +1 to Will saves, +2 to Reflex saves, +1d8+5 hit points, +1 to damage, +2 to AC, +1 to initiative, 2 skill points +1 to all Str, Dex and Con skills. Slightly increased carrying capacity. Barb/Fighter 3 - 2 Reserve points, +1 to attack, +1 to Reflex saves, +1 to Will saves, Trap Sense +1, Armor Compatability +1, +1d12 hit points, 4 skill points. Armor Compatability is another house rule of mine - the fighter gains the ability to add a small amount to the maximum Dex (or, in my games, CDB) adjustment for armor worn. I think, however, one of the problems that's showing up in this acid test is that it's naked - ability for ability, the troll is comeing out ahead, whereas if it was up against a fully equiped Barb/Fighter, I'd say that things would be about equal. The troll would have to be full equiped too, fo course, but it's lack of skill would begin to show. No armor, not able to use natural weapons (or use natural weapons, but with the low damage), ect - the Troll is great naked, but how do you equip it, exactly? Anyways... Troll 4 - Regen 4, Improved Natural Weapons, +2 to Attack, +1 to damage, +2 to Fort Saves, +1d8+7 hit points, +1 to AC, 2 skill points, +1 to all Str and Con skills, slightly increased carrying capacity. Barb/Fighter 4 - 2 Reserve points, Bonus Feat, Extra Rage, +1 to Attack, +1 to Fort saves, +1d12 hit points, +1 to AC 4 skill points. You've probably noticed that the troll's hit points are creeping - +3, +5, +7... This is because I'm also counting in those hit points gained retroactively from the Con score bumps. This level is something I'd call equal once more, though it still leans towards the troll. It's important to note, however, that there's a second balance element here - the hidden benefits. Because I'm looking just at the numbers, the troll is really looking good right now. But the thing is, just about all the troll has is survivability. It's not got the class skills to actually do much, nor really the skill points - the base troll, is, in fact, not very good at all. If I were to compare a standard dwarf Barb/Fighter with the troll, looking at it as a whole, I'd say that they'd come out about equal... But, I do prefer to check level for level balance, so.... Troll 5 - Regen 5, +1 to attack, +1 to damage, +1 to Fort saves, +1 to Reflex saves, +1d8+9 hit points, +2 to AC, 2 skill points, +1 to Str, Dex, and Con skills, slightly increased carrying capacity. Barb/Fighter 5 - 2 Reserve points, +1 to attack, Improved Uncanny Dodge, +1d12 hit points, 4 skill points. This must be one of the worst levels for both classes - Both of them seem fairly empty. I'd give this one to the Barbarian/Fighter, though, just because of Improved Uncanny dodge, which is quite good. Of course, that's just me... *Wipes some sweat from his brow* I can't belive I actually went and did all that - Normally I just grab levels 1 and 5 (rarely seen one that needed to do 10 as well), and eyeball them. Overall, I'd say that for my game, with it's perticular adaptions of the rules in UA, and it's own house rules, the Troll Gestalt Progression is fairly balanced. A Ranger/Barbarian comparision probably would have been more fair, over all, and somewhat harsher on the troll, now that I think of it.... Anyways, in a more convenital campaign, only adopting the gestalt rules, I'd say that another level should be added on, to make it that full 6 hit dice, as in a more normal campaign, the things which make the troll more balanced compared to the other classes are not going to exist, and so the troll would be more powerful, comparitively.