Gestalt... is it broken? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt... is it broken? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MrGone
02-17-04, 02:01 PM I know the book claims it is not broken but I cant help but to think that as tempting and fun it is to play a gestalt character... is it a game breaker?
I have been bouncing around the idea of incorporating it into my game but am leery due to the fact it seems to be broken.
Monk/Fighter... more hps and loads of feats.
Paladin/Monk... Saving Throw god.
Rogue/Fighter... armor, sneak attack, a bunch of weapons.
Etc.
I am afraid it could blow the game open and be hard to contain what are your thoughts?
Dartanel
02-17-04, 02:08 PM Yes, it is broken, the introduction to the section even goes so far as to say so.

But, as long as you understand that it's broken, accept that it's broken, and work with the fact that it's broken, you can still challenge your players. Which, I guess, would really make it not broken, would it? :)
stone_dog
02-17-04, 02:11 PM I think you should only use it if you are already on the hard side on your players.

I enjoy throwing difficult challanges their way and, for the most part, they have spent more time on death's door than in any other game. They love it though, gets the Die Hard thing going.

It isn't broken, but you have to set the expectation that this is a specific type of game, high action, cinematic, high challange. Make sure that when you shift to a more gritty style of gaming, or a larger group that the optional gestalt rule will be dropped.

Yes, it has serious potential for breakage, but it is easily balanced back out too. Bigger enemies and more of them is a good start.
DJCupboard
02-17-04, 02:14 PM If it weren't for the fact that major NPCs will be gestalt, too, and that you'll be adjusting the el of encounters to match their (the PCs) power, I'd call it game breaking. With a careful DM, though, it's just a different kind of new and exciting game, which is what UA is shooting for.

It's also only intended for small parties (three or less), so that they don't have to be fighting EL one or two challenges most of their carreers.

~DJCupboard~

edit: sometimes spelling kills us all.

edit: for clarity.
Krelios
02-17-04, 02:32 PM It's not broken, it's high-powered. As DJCupboard already pointed out, as long as everything uses it, it's all balanced in and of itself. It's only broken if you mix it into a standard campaign. That is what the introduction to that section mentioned, and they give rules for adjusting the CRs for monsters accordingly.
aldymnor
02-17-04, 02:57 PM Originally posted by Dartanel
Yes, it is broken, the introduction to the section even goes so far as to say so.

Yep.

Gestalt is like the feat "Spellfire" in FR. If you allow it, you better damn be ready to modify your campaign. Gestalt isn't just like some PrC or template. It literally modifies the way a campaign works. I can't imagine effectively balancing a gestalt with a normal character; indeed, it's best to just use all characters as gestalts. That's what we're doing in this campaign we just started.
Krelios
02-17-04, 03:02 PM Originally posted by aldymnor
Yep.

Gestalt is like the feat "Spellfire" in FR. If you allow it, you better damn be ready to modify your campaign. Gestalt isn't just like some PrC or template. It literally modifies the way a campaign works. I can't imagine effectively balancing a gestalt with a normal character; indeed, it's best to just use all characters as gestalts. That's what we're doing in this campaign we just started.

Which is what the rules for Gestalt characters specifically state. It's always going to be broken if you don't follow all the rules...
RhoxandRoll
02-17-04, 03:18 PM Well, the chapter tells you how to balance the game around it. However, I disagree with the idea...Methinks it stinks of power gaming...
stone_dog
02-17-04, 03:33 PM Do you mean trying to gain an unreasonable edge over the other players or an unreasonable edge over the DM?

As long as the players are feeling challenged with the game and happy with their characters I don't see how it could possibly be stinky powergaming.

The PC's could even be the only gestalt characters in the world and they still would have a rough time with a cabal of skilled necromancers or a tribe of powerful orcs and lets not forget that a dragon can seriously ruin your day.

All it is to me is another reason to stop pulling punches.
DarkThoughts24
02-17-04, 07:55 PM its powergaming truly but its a devious trap. its the paper giant in which a dm can douse with gasoline and smite the pcs heavily.

of course i like it given the fact i rarely have the 4 player party. it allows me more ways to kill them and feel so very happy knowing they had all the tools to handle everything
flyingmoose
02-17-04, 08:21 PM Broken is a bad word and I wish people would save it for things that actually break the game. Things that defy adjudication like "how is the beholder looking at me [with the big eye] and biting him?"

Putting a single gestalt character in a party full of standard characters is heavily unbalanced unless you give the gestalt character at least a +2 ECL, but you're not supposed to do that. The idea is that gestalt characters are all or nothing.

But as long as the campaign is all-gestalt and challenge ratings are adjusted slightly, go crazy.

It should be noted that in addition to gaining class features for both classes, you also gain weaknesses and limitations for both classes (so you can't be a paladin/bard or monk/barbarian 'cause you can't be both lawful and nonlawful.)
DarkThoughts24
02-17-04, 08:34 PM ecl+2 is a bit extreme, just keep in mind the GPC is supposed to get a lot less exp per encounter.
Kaya Kenobi
02-18-04, 05:18 AM Ok... My current party I'm DMing for has the following:

Ranger 7
Fighter 6
Fighter 5/ Rogue 1
Cleric 6
Gestalt Monk/Druid 5..

There's no major balance issues.. The ECL for the PC is +2, and it has worked just fine.

So, no, it's not broken. Not even with the group of PCs here.
Salla
02-18-04, 04:16 PM I haven't gotten mine yet (tomorrow!), but I leafed through one at the game store. When I got the UA 'web enhancement', when I saw 'gestalt characters', I figured it was going to be 'a little of this, a little of that', rather than 'the best of both worlds', which I quickly discovered was the case on these boards.

Cue spaz attack and Curly Howard 'woo woo woo woob' sound effects.

Fortunately, they have that nice big sidebar that explains that gestalt isn't for 'normal' campaigns and are operating under NO pretense that a gestalt character will be balanced with a normal character. They even go into some detail on just how much more powerful the gestalt is compared to a normal character ('you'd think twice as powerful, but not quite ...').

I rather like Kaya's idea of ECL+2'ing the Gestalt. Given how the power level climbs faster at higher levels, though, I'd be tempted to do something like:
Levels 1-5: +1 ECL
Level 6-10: +2 ECL
Level 11-15: +3 ECL
Level 16: +4 ECL
Of course, the computations on this would be a pain ... he'd start ECL +1, then at 6th level, he'd have to 'hold back' a level to adjust for the ECL, kinda like getting a template in mid-game.
Kaya Kenobi
02-18-04, 05:31 PM As the characters rise into even higher levels I'll continue to update on this, but so far, being 2 levels behind every other class is what has made the Gestalted PC balanced...
aldymnor
02-18-04, 05:43 PM Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi
As the characters rise into even higher levels I'll continue to update on this, but so far, being 2 levels behind every other class is what has made the Gestalted PC balanced...

I ranted about this last night but then lost my Connection, so I closed the window.

At any rate, I was going to say the reason WotC won't commit to a static LA is that two Gestalts aren't really balanced.

Let's examine the Barbarian/fighter, shall we? Let's treat it like a Barbarian who was lucky enough to convince his DM to let him Gestalt into fighter. Well, his BaB doesn't change, no extra hit points, and his saves stay the same too. He doesn't get any more skill points per level, and for a quick scan, I'm pretty sure he doesn't even get any extra class skills. He doesn't enjoy any better armor, but he does enjoy something like 11 bonus feats by the level 20.

Well, ok. That's nice.

Let's examine the Cleric/Fighter, shall we? Let's treat him like a Cleric who was lucky enough to convince his DM to let him Gestalt into fighter. The BaB goes better, no better saves are gained, he gets a couple extra nifty class skills (Intimidate, Jump, Ride.. the list goes on), he gets proficiency in all martial weapons, 11 extra feats by level 20, a d10 hit die, and no reduction in spellcasting level. It's nearly a pure benefit, and this isn't even the best Gestalt combination, not by a longshot. But it's quite better than a Barbarian/Fighter.

Since Gestalts aren't really balanced with each other, they have to be treated separately you know? I wouldn't impose a +2 LA on our Barb/Fighter friend. Or if I did, I certainly wouldn't impose the same restriction on Cleric/Fighter. Cleric/Fighter is just better.

Well, that's my opinion anyway. If I were wrong, I'm pretty sure WotC would be comfortable with putting in a "yeah, all Gestalts are equal, and this is how you balance them" clause in UA.

</rant>

Edit: fixed errors
Kaya Kenobi
02-18-04, 05:53 PM And if balance is screwed up, I can fix it. I am the DM, and I made the offer the the player that instead of leveling up he could take a certain combination as he was monk already and was thinking about taking up druid levels.. By the time he reaches level 6, all the other players will probably be level 8-10.

No, there's an adjustment to be made, by whatever needs to be done. If it's a truly weak combination the LA might be +1. If it's stronger, it should be higher in the LA. Needing 3,000 experience points to reach 3rd level is definately more restrictive than percentage penalties, but it really doesn't hurt anything.
DarkThoughts24
02-18-04, 08:55 PM perhaps buy levels of ecl on occassion similar to the bloodline rules may be in order during the playtest

and lets be honest if you give a minmaxing barbarian 11 more feats you will likely have a village slughterign engine of destruction. he can easily devote his standard feats to rage based feats while he spends hsi fighter feats on combat skills.

and a skilled 2 weapon extended sunderign rage barbarian with cleave and great cleave will break ever person place and thing he can.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MrGone 02-17-04, 02:01 PM	I know the book claims it is not broken but I cant help but to think that as tempting and fun it is to play a gestalt character... is it a game breaker? I have been bouncing around the idea of incorporating it into my game but am leery due to the fact it seems to be broken. Monk/Fighter... more hps and loads of feats. Paladin/Monk... Saving Throw god. Rogue/Fighter... armor, sneak attack, a bunch of weapons. Etc. I am afraid it could blow the game open and be hard to contain what are your thoughts?
Dartanel 02-17-04, 02:08 PM	Yes, it is broken, the introduction to the section even goes so far as to say so. But, as long as you understand that it's broken, accept that it's broken, and work with the fact that it's broken, you can still challenge your players. Which, I guess, would really make it not broken, would it? :)
stone_dog 02-17-04, 02:11 PM	I think you should only use it if you are already on the hard side on your players. I enjoy throwing difficult challanges their way and, for the most part, they have spent more time on death's door than in any other game. They love it though, gets the Die Hard thing going. It isn't broken, but you have to set the expectation that this is a specific type of game, high action, cinematic, high challange. Make sure that when you shift to a more gritty style of gaming, or a larger group that the optional gestalt rule will be dropped. Yes, it has serious potential for breakage, but it is easily balanced back out too. Bigger enemies and more of them is a good start.
DJCupboard 02-17-04, 02:14 PM	If it weren't for the fact that major NPCs will be gestalt, too, and that you'll be adjusting the el of encounters to match their (the PCs) power, I'd call it game breaking. With a careful DM, though, it's just a different kind of new and exciting game, which is what UA is shooting for. It's also only intended for small parties (three or less), so that they don't have to be fighting EL one or two challenges most of their carreers. ~DJCupboard~ edit: sometimes spelling kills us all. edit: for clarity.
Krelios 02-17-04, 02:32 PM	It's not broken, it's high-powered. As DJCupboard already pointed out, as long as everything uses it, it's all balanced in and of itself. It's only broken if you mix it into a standard campaign. That is what the introduction to that section mentioned, and they give rules for adjusting the CRs for monsters accordingly.
aldymnor 02-17-04, 02:57 PM	Originally posted by Dartanel Yes, it is broken, the introduction to the section even goes so far as to say so. Yep. Gestalt is like the feat "Spellfire" in FR. If you allow it, you better damn be ready to modify your campaign. Gestalt isn't just like some PrC or template. It literally modifies the way a campaign works. I can't imagine effectively balancing a gestalt with a normal character; indeed, it's best to just use all characters as gestalts. That's what we're doing in this campaign we just started.
Krelios 02-17-04, 03:02 PM	Originally posted by aldymnor Yep. Gestalt is like the feat "Spellfire" in FR. If you allow it, you better damn be ready to modify your campaign. Gestalt isn't just like some PrC or template. It literally modifies the way a campaign works. I can't imagine effectively balancing a gestalt with a normal character; indeed, it's best to just use all characters as gestalts. That's what we're doing in this campaign we just started. Which is what the rules for Gestalt characters specifically state. It's always going to be broken if you don't follow all the rules...
RhoxandRoll 02-17-04, 03:18 PM	Well, the chapter tells you how to balance the game around it. However, I disagree with the idea...Methinks it stinks of power gaming...
stone_dog 02-17-04, 03:33 PM	Do you mean trying to gain an unreasonable edge over the other players or an unreasonable edge over the DM? As long as the players are feeling challenged with the game and happy with their characters I don't see how it could possibly be stinky powergaming. The PC's could even be the only gestalt characters in the world and they still would have a rough time with a cabal of skilled necromancers or a tribe of powerful orcs and lets not forget that a dragon can seriously ruin your day. All it is to me is another reason to stop pulling punches.
DarkThoughts24 02-17-04, 07:55 PM	its powergaming truly but its a devious trap. its the paper giant in which a dm can douse with gasoline and smite the pcs heavily. of course i like it given the fact i rarely have the 4 player party. it allows me more ways to kill them and feel so very happy knowing they had all the tools to handle everything
flyingmoose 02-17-04, 08:21 PM	Broken is a bad word and I wish people would save it for things that actually break the game. Things that defy adjudication like "how is the beholder looking at me [with the big eye] and biting him?" Putting a single gestalt character in a party full of standard characters is heavily unbalanced unless you give the gestalt character at least a +2 ECL, but you're not supposed to do that. The idea is that gestalt characters are all or nothing. But as long as the campaign is all-gestalt and challenge ratings are adjusted slightly, go crazy. It should be noted that in addition to gaining class features for both classes, you also gain weaknesses and limitations for both classes (so you can't be a paladin/bard or monk/barbarian 'cause you can't be both lawful and nonlawful.)
DarkThoughts24 02-17-04, 08:34 PM	ecl+2 is a bit extreme, just keep in mind the GPC is supposed to get a lot less exp per encounter.
Kaya Kenobi 02-18-04, 05:18 AM	Ok... My current party I'm DMing for has the following: Ranger 7 Fighter 6 Fighter 5/ Rogue 1 Cleric 6 Gestalt Monk/Druid 5.. There's no major balance issues.. The ECL for the PC is +2, and it has worked just fine. So, no, it's not broken. Not even with the group of PCs here.
Salla 02-18-04, 04:16 PM	I haven't gotten mine yet (tomorrow!), but I leafed through one at the game store. When I got the UA 'web enhancement', when I saw 'gestalt characters', I figured it was going to be 'a little of this, a little of that', rather than 'the best of both worlds', which I quickly discovered was the case on these boards. Cue spaz attack and Curly Howard 'woo woo woo woob' sound effects. Fortunately, they have that nice big sidebar that explains that gestalt isn't for 'normal' campaigns and are operating under NO pretense that a gestalt character will be balanced with a normal character. They even go into some detail on just how much more powerful the gestalt is compared to a normal character ('you'd think twice as powerful, but not quite ...'). I rather like Kaya's idea of ECL+2'ing the Gestalt. Given how the power level climbs faster at higher levels, though, I'd be tempted to do something like: Levels 1-5: +1 ECL Level 6-10: +2 ECL Level 11-15: +3 ECL Level 16: +4 ECL Of course, the computations on this would be a pain ... he'd start ECL +1, then at 6th level, he'd have to 'hold back' a level to adjust for the ECL, kinda like getting a template in mid-game.
Kaya Kenobi 02-18-04, 05:31 PM	As the characters rise into even higher levels I'll continue to update on this, but so far, being 2 levels behind every other class is what has made the Gestalted PC balanced...
aldymnor 02-18-04, 05:43 PM	Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi As the characters rise into even higher levels I'll continue to update on this, but so far, being 2 levels behind every other class is what has made the Gestalted PC balanced... I ranted about this last night but then lost my Connection, so I closed the window. At any rate, I was going to say the reason WotC won't commit to a static LA is that two Gestalts aren't really balanced. Let's examine the Barbarian/fighter, shall we? Let's treat it like a Barbarian who was lucky enough to convince his DM to let him Gestalt into fighter. Well, his BaB doesn't change, no extra hit points, and his saves stay the same too. He doesn't get any more skill points per level, and for a quick scan, I'm pretty sure he doesn't even get any extra class skills. He doesn't enjoy any better armor, but he does enjoy something like 11 bonus feats by the level 20. Well, ok. That's nice. Let's examine the Cleric/Fighter, shall we? Let's treat him like a Cleric who was lucky enough to convince his DM to let him Gestalt into fighter. The BaB goes better, no better saves are gained, he gets a couple extra nifty class skills (Intimidate, Jump, Ride.. the list goes on), he gets proficiency in all martial weapons, 11 extra feats by level 20, a d10 hit die, and no reduction in spellcasting level. It's nearly a pure benefit, and this isn't even the best Gestalt combination, not by a longshot. But it's quite better than a Barbarian/Fighter. Since Gestalts aren't really balanced with each other, they have to be treated separately you know? I wouldn't impose a +2 LA on our Barb/Fighter friend. Or if I did, I certainly wouldn't impose the same restriction on Cleric/Fighter. Cleric/Fighter is just better. Well, that's my opinion anyway. If I were wrong, I'm pretty sure WotC would be comfortable with putting in a "yeah, all Gestalts are equal, and this is how you balance them" clause in UA. </rant> Edit: fixed errors
Kaya Kenobi 02-18-04, 05:53 PM	And if balance is screwed up, I can fix it. I am the DM, and I made the offer the the player that instead of leveling up he could take a certain combination as he was monk already and was thinking about taking up druid levels.. By the time he reaches level 6, all the other players will probably be level 8-10. No, there's an adjustment to be made, by whatever needs to be done. If it's a truly weak combination the LA might be +1. If it's stronger, it should be higher in the LA. Needing 3,000 experience points to reach 3rd level is definately more restrictive than percentage penalties, but it really doesn't hurt anything.
DarkThoughts24 02-18-04, 08:55 PM	perhaps buy levels of ecl on occassion similar to the bloodline rules may be in order during the playtest and lets be honest if you give a minmaxing barbarian 11 more feats you will likely have a village slughterign engine of destruction. he can easily devote his standard feats to rage based feats while he spends hsi fighter feats on combat skills. and a skilled 2 weapon extended sunderign rage barbarian with cleave and great cleave will break ever person place and thing he can.