Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The nameles one 10-21-04, 07:20 AM	I dont have Unearthed Arcana yet, so I want to ask what is the Gestalt rules all about? Based on what I've seen in these forums it siim the Gestalt rules are insane. What is the main idea behind them? :confused:
d_nychus 10-21-04, 08:21 AM	Take any two classes, and combine the best class features of both. That is your gestalt class. It's meant mostly for single or two player groups who do not want another NPC to fill in needed class abilities, or if the DM wants a particularly powerful campaign. For most games, it's not recommended.
Kiri Sittori 10-21-04, 09:13 AM	I dont have Unearthed Arcana yet, so I want to ask what is the Gestalt rules all about? Based on what I've seen in these forums it siim the Gestalt rules are insane. What is the main idea behind them? :confused: Basically, if you've ever played AD&D, it's similar (but somewhat superior) to the AD&D multiclass rules. The basic rule is this: instead of advancing one class at a time, you advance two classes. The insanity comes from figuring out what happens if you take a fighter/wizard at first level, and wizard/cleric at second. :)
The nameles one 10-21-04, 09:20 AM	Basically, if you've ever played AD&D, it's similar (but somewhat superior) to the AD&D multiclass rules. The basic rule is this: instead of advancing one class at a time, you advance two classes. The insanity comes from figuring out what happens if you take a fighter/wizard at first level, and wizard/cleric at second. :) So you could like alternate between Fighter/Wizard and Wizard/Cleric so at level 20 you are Wizard 20, Fighter 10 and Cleric 10? :twitch: Or Wizard 20/Sorcerer 20? :twitch: :twitch:
Kiri Sittori 10-21-04, 01:17 PM	So you could like alternate between Fighter/Wizard and Wizard/Cleric so at level 20 you are Wizard 20, Fighter 10 and Cleric 10? :twitch: Or Wizard 20/Sorcerer 20? :twitch: :twitch: Yes. The "problem" that I was referring to is "what is the BAB of a character that takes Ftr/Wiz at L1, and Clr/Wiz at L2?" :P
The nameles one 10-21-04, 02:01 PM	Yes. The "problem" that I was referring to is "what is the BAB of a character that takes Ftr/Wiz at L1, and Clr/Wiz at L2?" :P The cleric's?
Sucineri 10-21-04, 02:03 PM	Wizard 2nd level is +1 BAB, Cleric at 1st level is +0 BAB. So you would take the Wizard's +1, add it to the Fighter's +1 and you would have +2. It really isn't that hard.
Pyriel 10-21-04, 02:23 PM	you cant be wizard 20/sorcerer 20....there opposing classes. just like how monk and barbarian cant be worked together do to alignment. but you use the best of both classes...so if you use monk and fighter for ex, you get fighter bab and monk saves with bonus feats and monk special abilities. If you use unarmed attacks then IIRC, you would use the monks 5 attacks with a full bab.
Sucineri 10-21-04, 02:48 PM	you cant be wizard 20/sorcerer 20....there opposing classes. just like how monk and barbarian cant be worked together do to alignment. WOW..you are totally wrong on the wizard/sorceror thing. I have my UA book open right now and it says on page 74 at the bottom right of the page specifically stating a wizard/sorceror combo. It says that you don't gain crap from BAB or saves, or anything like that because both classes are essentially the same. It also says and I quote "But oh, the spell you can cast!". Wizards and Sorcerors aren't opposing or it would say so specifically in their class entries. There are no alignment restrictions on them at all. They just say that wizards TEND to be more lawful and sorcerors TEND to be more chaotic. Doesn't say specifically that they have to be though.
ChimericalWolf 10-21-04, 02:51 PM	The best thing to do would be to use fractional BAB, which is a variant in UA. Under that rule, the F1/W1 F2/C1 would have a +1 BAB. At first level the fighter BAB is better, so for first level you get the +1. For second level you choose the Cleric BAB (3/4 per level) so that char would have a 1 and 3/4 base attack, which rounds to +1. "you cant be wizard 20/sorcerer 20....there opposing classes. just like how monk and barbarian cant be worked together do to alignment." (emphasis mine) ^ What in dream's name is this bull? Where in god's green earth did you dig that up? [EDIT] And thanks to Sucineri for backing me up....before I got there. I probably started typing first, so there!
Sucineri 10-21-04, 03:02 PM	CLASSES AND ALIGNMENT RESTRICTIONS Barbarians are any non-lawful. Bards are any non-lawful. (which I didn't know til I just read it in my PHB) Clerics are any alignment. Druids are any neutral. Fighters are any alignment. Monks are any lawful. Paladins are only lawful good. Rangers are any alignment. Rogues are any alignment. Sorcerors are any alignment. Wizards are any alignment. NOT POSSIBLE Barbarian/Monk Barbarian/Paladin Bard/Monk Bard/Paladin Druid/Paladin DONE WITH THIS BOLDING CRAP! WOO DOGGIES! Yeah, so anyway..those are the 5 gestalts that are not possible. Even if you start as another combo and take one of these classes as a gestalt, it is not possible if the other class is already in there. :)
ChimericalWolf 10-21-04, 03:06 PM	Even if you start as another combo and take one of these classes as a gestalt, it is not possible if the other class is already in there. :) A little correction, while you cannot take any of those classes together as gestalt, you can have those classes, such as a Barbarian than later a Monk, however, you may loose some abilitys. For the Barb/Monk, If you turn lawful to take monk levels, you will lose your ability to rage until you turn non-lawful again.
Sucineri 10-21-04, 03:16 PM	Well yeah, if you change your alignment to get the other class then you can have both. But you can never be both fully. So a Barbarian/Monk depending on his alignment is not fully a barbarian..or he is not fully a monk. That's why I have a gestalt character who is a Barbarian/Druid. I also am using the edited class of Druid from the UA book which gets rid of my shaping abilities so that I can get some monk abilities. AND..the abilities don't rely on alignment. :)
ChimericalWolf 10-21-04, 03:32 PM	Keep in mind, of course, that monks loose nothing from becoming non-lawful, except the ability to continue in the monk class. So that char of yours could go monk for a while, than get in touch with his wilder (raging) side.
Sucineri 10-21-04, 04:08 PM	Sure..but then he can never be a monk again. That would suck. *edit* Ack..forgot one MAJOR thing here.. Being a GESTALT wizard20/sorceror20 is not the same as being a normal wizard20/sorceror20. A Gestalt version would have the level 20 BAB of the better of the two classes (in this case you would just have the level 20 BAB of wizard since they have the same). You would have the level 20 saves of the better (which are both the same), etc. So basically if you are a Gestalt fighter20/barbarian20 and you come up against a barbarian20 OR a fighter20 you both have +20/+15/+10/+5 BAB. But if you come up against a fighter20/barbarian20 with your GESTALT fighter20/barbarian20 you are screwed. Because your enemy has the BAB of a level 40 fighter (since barb/fighter are the same BAB), the saves of a level 40 fighter (I believe barb/fighter have same saves, not sure)..and that type deal. Do you see what I am getting at?
Nazzareth 10-21-04, 06:17 PM	Gestalt rules are only insane because people have twisted an another wise simple set of rules to min-max out their characters. In their power gaming maddness they have read into the rules things that are not explictly stated, purposly misinterpting the rules to their own min-maxing ends. Playing on claims of vague and ambiguous sentance structure, stating the "RAW" and "it doesn't has say you can't" type arguments to support their min-maxing frenzy.
Ualaa 10-21-04, 06:25 PM	A Gestalt character has the potential to be stronger then a non-Gestalt character, but that depends upon the combinations of classes chosen. Barbarian 20th gains only feats from fighter 20th. While feats are nice, a combination which improved Reflex/Will saves, possibly contributed sneak damage or class features to the mix might provide a bigger bang for the buck. The combination of arcane or divine magics or psionic powers might be even stronger. Unearthed Arcana suggests reducing a monsters CR by 1 in general or by 2 if the monster depends upon a save or perish ability, due to the increased strength of a gestalt character. It is assumed a group of gestalts will have mostly good saves, and thus be less vulnerable. (Barbarian/Fighter Gestalt is no stronger vs Reflex/Will saves then a non-Gestalt Barbarian or Fighter.) A gestalt character with barbarian 20 / fighter 20, is 20th level, albeit slightly stronger (due to feats) then a straight barbarian 20th. A 21st EL encounter is a good challenge for a party of 4 Gestalt 20th level characters, just as a 20th EL encounter is balanced for a party of 4 non-Gestalt 20th level characters. (Comparing CR's and Experience gained from CR's, raising a CR by 1 increases exp and challenge by 50%; this suggests against non save or die effects, a Gestalt is a 50% increase in power but not nearly strong enough for a 20 CR increase.) A non-Gestalt Barbarian 20 + Fighter 20, is a 40th level character, and has been epic for half their career. A party of 40th level characters should be able to handle an EL 40 encounter and completely destroy an EL 20 or 21 encounter. Taking hit points as an example, a Gestalt 20 Barbarian/20 Fighter has 19D12 + 12 + CON hit points (135.5 plus CON). A 40th level character with 20 levels of each has 19D12 + 12 + 20D10 + CON (245.5 plus CON), clearly not an equal comparison.
Nazzareth 10-21-04, 07:29 PM	Gestalt characters are on average about 50% more powerfull than standard characters of the same level. Many groups are mixing standard and gestalt in the same game buy give gestalt character an LA of +1 or +2, which is totally unfair and unbalancing for the players of standard characters.
Sucineri 10-21-04, 09:17 PM	Gestalt rules are only insane because people have twisted an another wise simple set of rules to min-max out their characters. In their power gaming maddness they have read into the rules things that are not explictly stated, purposly misinterpting the rules to their own min-maxing ends. Playing on claims of vague and ambiguous sentance structure, stating the "RAW" and "it doesn't has say you can't" type arguments to support their min-maxing frenzy. I am trying to figure out what you are meaning by this..are you saying it about someone in this thread..or are you saying it in general? If you are saying it in general then it is odd because without any examples I am clueless as to what you are saying. And if you are saying it about someone in this thread, I am still clueless because I don't see it.
Khan the Destroyer 10-21-04, 11:29 PM	I think that he was speaking in general. Implying that the reason there is confusion about the Gestalt rules and why it might be considered "insane" is because people purposely interpret the rules to use Gestalt in a way not intended by the books. In other words, I think he was saying that by the book, Gestalt is not too bad, but the way people try to interpret it to their ends makes it confusing and lends to its reputation as "insane", "broken", or "powergaming".
Nazzareth 10-21-04, 11:52 PM	Your dead right on that one.
Sucineri 10-22-04, 03:28 AM	Ahh, okay. Well, I go with the rules. :)
starfire311 10-22-04, 02:36 PM	Wizard 2nd level is +1 BAB, Cleric at 1st level is +0 BAB. So you would take the Wizard's +1, add it to the Fighter's +1 and you would have +2. It really isn't that hard. Noooooooooooooooooooooo... don't start this again. yes the rule can be interpreted this way... but as has been discussed in other threads it can be interpreted many ways... any DM that allows this is crazy IMO.... a Ftr1-Clr 1/Wiz 2 should have a BAB of +1
Sucineri 10-22-04, 05:32 PM	Noooooooooooooooooooooo... don't start this again. yes the rule can be interpreted this way... but as has been discussed in other threads it can be interpreted many ways... any DM that allows this is crazy IMO.... a Ftr1-Clr 1/Wiz 2 should have a BAB of +1 I don't understand why it would be a +1. Fighter 1 - Wizard 1 would have a +1 BAB. Fighter 1 - Cleric 1 would have a +1 BAB. Wizard 1 - Cleric 1 would have a +0 BAB. But in the case of Fighter/Wizard + Wizard/Cleric. There are 2 levels of wizard, and on the wizard's 2nd level they obtain a +1 BAB whereas the cleric at level 1 doesn't. You don't treat it as this.. 1st level Fighter1/Wizard1 2nd Level Cleric1/Wizard1 3rd Level Rogue1/Wizard1 etc. The wizard will never get better..and by that way you can't ever make any class better. What if it was Fighter1/Wizard1 then Fighter1/Cleric1 on 2nd level? The fighter side IS getting stronger..so you would use the 2nd level of fighter compared to the first level of Cleric and pick which one would be stronger. At that point you would have everything a 2nd level fighter has as far as feats, BAB, fort save, etc, and then you would have whatever saves you would have gotten from the wizard AND the cleric. Why do you see it otherwise? Go ahead and give your example, because so far I can't see it.
ChimericalWolf 10-22-04, 06:37 PM	Okay, here's the best I can come up with. You only get one BAB slot per character level, but with gestalt you get _two_ BABs to fill those slots with. If you are a ftr1/wiz1, you have a +1 BAB. At second level, you take clr1/wiz2, so you get to choose between those two. But your Wiz1 level essentially doesn't count, because your 1st level BAB "slot" is taken up by your Ftr1. Essentially, the combat training you get as a wizard by second level comes to match the fighter training you already have, and not overlap.
Sucineri 10-22-04, 07:01 PM	But the thing is..you don't take fighter1/wizard2/cleric1 at the same time. Fighter1/Wizard1 is your first level. So you get the best that you can get between those 2 (as well as special abilities and normal class stuff) Wizard2/Cleric1 is your second level. So you get the best that you can get between those 2 (as well as special abilities and normal class stuff) If you just count it as Wizard1/Cleric1 at that 2nd level then you truly are not taking what you could be getting as a 2nd level wizard..even though you are 2nd level. When you level you do not look at what you did the previous level..because it doesn't matter anymore. You look at the cleric and the wizard charts and see "what do I get for being a 2nd level wizard?" You don't use "slots" or anything like that. Because at FIRST level you get +1 BAB from being a fighter. At 2nd level you gain +1 BAB for being a 2nd level wizard. So they stack. It's like when you aren't gestalt and you take fighter with +2 to your fort save. Then at 2nd level you take something that gives you +2 to fort and say +2 to reflex. You end up with +4 fort, and +2 reflex. BUT that's being a 2nd level character. In Gestalt they over lap. So level1 you get +2 fort (since both classes overlap) and +2 reflex. If at 2nd level you get a class that gets +2 fort and +2 will then don't you have +4 fort, +2 ref, +2 will? NORMALLY 2nd level STACKS on top of 1st level. GESTALT 2nd level (both classes overlapped) STACKS with 1st level (both classes overlapped).
Ualaa 10-22-04, 09:40 PM	Gestalt characters are on average about 50% more powerfull than standard characters of the same level. Many groups are mixing standard and gestalt in the same game buy give gestalt character an LA of +1 or +2, which is totally unfair and unbalancing for the players of standard characters. Unearthed Arcana suggests to not mix both Gestalt and non-Gestalt characters in the same campaign. When using the Gestalt option, it is assume all the PC's as well as the major NPC's are constructed with the Gestalt rules, so there is no need to assign a LA based on being Gestalt. Unearthed Arcana further suggests an encounter one level too high (in general) or two levels too high (if it relies upon a save or die type power) is an appropriate challenge for a Gestalt group. The example given is thus: A Shambling Mound (CR 6) or a Medusa (CR 7) are both appropriate challenges for a Gestalt group of four 5th level characters. With each one increase of CR (for a single monster) or of one EL (for an encounter), the challenge and rewards (experience) increase by 50%. By the rules presented in Unearthed Arcana, against a typical encounter a Gestalt character is 50% stronger (LA +1) but due to increased likelihood of mostly strong saving throws, a Gestalt is 100% stronger (LA+2) against an encounter that depends upon a save or die power. I strongly do not recommend combining both Gestalt and non-Gestalt in the same game, but if you do... the rules suggest an adjustment between LA +1 and LA +2 is appropriate. If the setting includes mostly save or die type things, the +2 adjustment is more appropriate. If the challenges are of a general combat AC/Attack/Damage nature, the +1 LA is more appropriate. The 3.5 mechanics, specifically challenge ratings, experience rewards and level adjustment strongly point to +1/+2 as an appropriate measure of power in terms of a level adjustment.
ChimericalWolf 10-23-04, 05:10 PM	Okay, Sucineri, this is the best way I can use to describe it. Every class gives a certain amount of BAB every level. For fighters, it's 1 per level. For Clerics, it's 3/4s. For wizards, it's 1/2. This isn't spelled out in the PHB, but it's essentially how it works. Let me show you. Used Bab is what you see in the PHB, as you round fractions down. Class-fractional BAB-Used BAB Ftr1 - 1 - 1 Ftr2 - 2 - 2 Ect. Clr1 - 3/4 - 0 Clr2 - 6/4=1+1/2 - 1 Clr3 - 9/4=2+1/4 - 2 Ect. Wiz1 - 1/2 - 0 Wiz2 - 1 - 1 Wiz3 - 1+1/2 - 1 Ect. If you look at it this way, it makes perfect sense why the Ftr1/Clr1/Wiz 2 doesn't get a +2. Lemme shape it out for you. Ftr1/wiz1 Who has the better BAB? The Fighter, so for first level you take the fighter's BAB. Than, at level 2, Clr1/Wiz2 Which class has the better BAB? Cleric, so you take the clerics's BAB. So this char's BAB would look like this: 1 BAB +1 from being a fighter. 2 BAB +1 3/4, which rounds down to using +1. I know I'm not describing this well, but I just can't seem to put it in words. Hopefully it helps, if not, I'll just come back and try describing it in a different way. Maybe tune in later, when I do it with values of pi!
Sucineri 10-23-04, 05:53 PM	Actually that makes perfect sense. :P BUT..I don't believe it says you do or don't do it that way in Unearthed Arcana, so it is more of a house rule either way. My way would be a house rule, and your way would be a house rule. They basically just laid the foundation out for us to build upon whichever way we want. Too bad they didn't specifically state how it works. :P So yeah..I can totally see where you are coming from, and I know you know where I am coming from since you said so. :) So this is where we have to agree to disagree. And I am fine with that. :D
gbnogkfs 10-23-04, 06:52 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=302586 :D please... not again :cool:
Rekuji 10-23-04, 07:14 PM	Think of it this way. You are not taking levels of both Wizard and Fighter, or of Wizard and Cleric. You are taking a level of Wizardfighter and a level of Wizardcleric. A level of Wizardfighter grants: High BAB (better of the Fighters High BAB and Wizards Low BAB) d10 hit die (better of Fighters d10 and Wizards d4) 2+Inteligence skill points (same for both) It also grants a Bonus Feat at first level, and another each even-numbered level after that, as well as a Spell Progression remarkably similar to that of the common Wizard. The Wizardcleric grants: Medium BAB (better of Clarics Medium and Wizard Low) d8 hit die (better of Clerics d8 and Wizards d4) 2+Inteligence skill points (same for both) Also granting twice the spellcasting capability of the Wizard or Cleric. Therefore, at level One, you gain the High BAB from the Wizardfighter, a +1. At second level, taking a level of Wizardcleric, you gain its Medium BAB, or +0, making your new total BAB +1.
Nazzareth 10-23-04, 08:14 PM	You can not use Encounter levels and CR to assign LA they are all different mechanics. LA+1 or +2 works only at low levels if you are mixing gestalt and non-gestalt characters, because at higher levels the gestalt characters far out strip those that play standard characters, gestalt 18/18 is more powerful than evey standard 20th level character. Anyway this is an old argument search for the threads Gestalt LA there are several of them around. 50% more powerfull does not balance out to LA+1 or +2, it works at lower levels, but not at higher levels a 2nd level gestalt = 3rd level standard, while a 4th level gestalt = 6th level standard, while a 6th level gestalt = 9th level standard, and so on. You should used a scaled LA that starts off at LA+1 then increase by +1 at every 3rd or 4th level or you rules similar to the bloodline rules.
Kiri Sittori 10-24-04, 10:11 AM	You can not use Encounter levels and CR to assign LA they are all different mechanics. LA+1 or +2 works only at low levels if you are mixing gestalt and non-gestalt characters, because at higher levels the gestalt characters far out strip those that play standard characters, gestalt 18/18 is more powerful than evey standard 20th level character. Anyway this is an old argument search for the threads Gestalt LA there are several of them around. 50% more powerfull does not balance out to LA+1 or +2, it works at lower levels, but not at higher levels a 2nd level gestalt = 3rd level standard, while a 4th level gestalt = 6th level standard, while a 6th level gestalt = 9th level standard, and so on. You should used a scaled LA that starts off at LA+1 then increase by +1 at every 3rd or 4th level or you rules similar to the bloodline rules. 1/4 is sufficient; that's roughly equivalent to requiring double the experience to level up, as 2e's multiclass system used.
Dunelord 10-25-04, 12:51 AM	We have taken off with this rule and as a group seem to really dig it. We use what for lack of a better word is sides. You get two sides, take the better of each, and have to keep all levels for a class on one side. For example if you where a 6th level gestalt fighter 3 rogue 3 wizard 6 you would have take the better of a normal 6th level wizard or a normal multi classed 6th level charter with 3 levels in fighter and rogue 3.
Blaze_the_Dragon 10-25-04, 02:45 PM	I hate to interupt this THRILLING form of conversation...but I must prove you all wrong...the best class combonation is spilting between cleric, sorcerer, wizard, and psion till your a 4th level cleric/wizard and a 4th level sorcerer/psion...Then take Mystic thurge and Cerebremancer...Your spells will be a tad weaker...but if you concentrate on spells that ether allow no saving throw, target allies or self, or spells that affect things that get no saving throw...and you make sure you have bodyguards... The entire combonation works with druid istead of cleric too...and aliment wise it provides a bit of breathing room seeing as cleric's need to be a certian aligment according to there god, and seeing as druid provides with a neautral your not hurting the suggested aliments too much....I see a TN (or CN) power hungery druid, trying to win back the world from civalization and overrun it with forests...
starfire311 10-25-04, 04:17 PM	I hate to interupt this THRILLING form of conversation...but I must prove you all wrong...the best class combonation is spilting between cleric, sorcerer, wizard, and psion till your a 4th level cleric/wizard and a 4th level sorcerer/psion...Then take Mystic thurge and Cerebremancer...Your spells will be a tad weaker...but if you concentrate on spells that ether allow no saving throw, target allies or self, or spells that affect things that get no saving throw...and you make sure you have bodyguards... Wow I feel proved wrong. You do realize that it says right there in the UA that if you use gestalt then you should not use an multiclass fixing PrCs like the eldirtch knight or mystic Theurge.
Rekuji 10-25-04, 08:05 PM	Also, you cant Gestalt with two Prestiege Classes. You can have a PrC and a Base Class, but not two PrC's.
WihHizwind 10-26-04, 01:20 AM	Two things: You can have a Gestalt Paladin/<various aligned character> character, assuming you are playing the alternative paladin alignments. IMHO if you're willing to take the rules for Gestalt, then you should also be willing to take the rules for Paladins of alternative alignment, which (at least, to me) seem a lot more reasonable. Also, remember that BAB and Base Saves are done by HD in the class/race. The table in the various books are these numbers rounded down. Poor BAB = HD*.5 OK BAB = HD*.75 Good BAB = HD*1 Good Save = 2+HD*.5 Bad Save = HD*.333etc Of course, if you're going by this theory, then an 8th level character (4thCleric/4thRogue) would have a BAB of 6, rather than the 5 (got be doing the rounding down after all the HD BAB addition, rather than on each racial/class HD individually).
baoban sith 10-27-04, 03:06 PM	The people that haven't been through this before, the real issue that results from not using fractional BaB with gestalt is that a fighter1/wizard1 that progresses as a wizard/sorcerer for the rest of their career would have a 20 BaB at 20th, when it should obviously be 10.
Khelvaster 10-27-04, 09:41 PM	People Gestalt Wiz/Cl, Wiz/Sorc, Wiz/Fig, Sorc/Barb but why don't they every try Druid/Cleric That is undoubtably the strongest Gestalt Ev4r. You can take the Wild Spell feat to spellcast when you are in the form of an animal. Cast polymorph, turn into a housefly(which because of its tiny size will require spot checks to see, and after it flies out of sight the monster will ignore it), then start inflicting the **** out of people. Frost Giant Swashbuckler level 20: WTF!?!?!?! The Cleric/druid dissapeared Cleric: Casts Quickened harm and touches FG FG: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Cleric: Casts harm and touches FG FG: *Dead*