Giving characters more feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Giving characters more feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Omni-Wyvernil
12-29-07, 05:31 PM With the glut of splatbooks out at this point, it can be difficult to select just seven feats for your character(eight if you're human or playing as a fighter). So why not simply increase the number of feats characters get? For instance, give feats out every other level rather than every three levels. So, the average character would have eleven feats rather than seven, which could help out quite a bit.

1 per 3: 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18
1 per 2: 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20

Of course, this would make characters like the fighter who rely on bonus feats even weaker. So, in addition, why not increase the number of bonus fighter feats to 1 per level? That way, fighters end up with a whopping 31 feats at level 20. Additionally, humans could be given two bonus feats rather than one if you feel more feats takes away their advantage too much.

Of course, you'd have the make the monsters stronger to compensate for increased player strength, but this could help give characters greater diversity at lower levels.

What do you think? Does this work as a house rule?
deathbane
12-29-07, 07:34 PM If you can deal with overpowered characters. It can be hard to build the character you want with limited feats, but sometimes you just have to sacrifice.
PinkTaco
12-29-07, 07:47 PM Why not just use flaws (UA)?
Senevri
12-29-07, 07:57 PM Fix the traps, give B-class feats separately.
Xavon
12-29-07, 08:05 PM Lots of people give more feats but less powerful treasure. I'm a fan of this myself.
ppirilla
12-30-07, 02:01 PM There's a houserule that's been floating around for a while now: Every odd level you gain a feat, every even level you get +1 to an ability. To compensate, treasures are cut and stat-boosting items are banned.

I've also been known to give "lesser" feats as rewards for good gameplay; mostly the +2/+2 skill feats and the like.
navar100
12-30-07, 02:19 PM Also, don't outright ban prestige classes, but keep watch. Their prerequisites were designed for RAW feat allocation. If you are fine with some players getting into them earlier than normal, ok. Otherwise, you may need to add a feat prerequisite or two. If a prerequisite is based on skill ranks, then the minimum level to enter it remains regardless of the extra feats. You could also metagame it. Don't add any prerequisites, but make a deal with the player by fiat. You are being generous with the extra feats. The player doesn't milk it and enters the prestige class at the minimum level it would have required by RAW anyway.
calronmoonflower
12-30-07, 03:49 PM There's a houserule that's been floating around for a while now: Every odd level you gain a feat, every even level you get +1 to an ability. To compensate, treasures are cut and stat-boosting items are banned.

I remember that houserule in an article on the main sight.
JimProfit
12-30-07, 07:03 PM I've always liked the idea of the fighter having a bonus feat per level, i also would expand his feat list to anything with the [General] category and make [Fighter] feats only he could take. :D

My GM once did a thing so we could customize our characters and expriement with feats. What he did was he let us have four bonus feats.

Not level or anything specific like that. Just four bonus feats at character creation.
ericSHINRA
12-30-07, 07:14 PM The the idea of granting more feats does as the OP says, decreases the effectiveness of the Fighter. Also, what the Fighter needs is not more feats but actual Class Abilities.
ppirilla
12-30-07, 10:53 PM I remember that houserule in an article on the main sight.

Yeah, I know it was in an article at some point, but I don't think it originated there. Could be wrong, though.
JimProfit
12-31-07, 12:40 PM Also, what the Fighter needs is not more feats but actual Class Abilities.
Feats are like cowbell lol :P
ArochanoX
12-31-07, 12:50 PM I like giving my players more abilities that come through feats that grant them more money to get the abilities.

I reduced the gold and treasure the players get by 33%. But I grant them a feat every odd level and ability increase every even level. I also banned skill-boosting items. If a character wants to be good at some skill, he can always take skill focus IMO.
CrazyOzzy
01-01-08, 09:11 AM I give PCs a feat every odd level + I allow them to be trained in some things as rewards by expert trainers + I give feats as rewards for great actions (the +2/+2 feats).

To balance this all I do is simply grant the Monsters and NPCs the same thing. Monsters get a feat every 2HD instead of every 3HD.

It Makes for better PCs, happier Players and Monsters are alot more interesting! The Players will encounter monsters with abilities they could not have imagined. Try changing a Great Wyrm's feats in this manner, or the Tarrasque...
Killy
01-02-08, 02:51 PM I let the characters take 2 feats at first level instead of just 1. Feats with no prerequisites will hardly break any game so no problem here, and it has worked ok so far.
BigGus
01-02-08, 09:37 PM I do the same as CrazyOzzy; everyone gets feats every odd-numbered level/HD, so it's mostly self-balancing. The only real downside is it's easier for a clever player to create broken characters if you give them more feats.

The fighter may lose out a little in terms of power (not ideal...) but it makes them more interesting to level up in, since they get a new feat every single level. One way to balance things out is to use Tequila Sunrise's Supreme Weapon Focus/ Spec feats (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=966322, bottom of post #2) which the fighter can certainly afford with 21 feats by level 20 (or 22 if you're a human). There are literally dozens of other fighter fixes on these boards if you don't like them.
baronvonboxy
01-08-08, 02:20 PM My DM gives us one extra feat at first, any of the +2 to saves feat, skill focus, toughness, or skill boost feats i.e. alertness. Pretty good for some prestige classes that need iron will or stealthy.
Orenmir
01-09-08, 11:08 AM According to rule 0, a DM can give as many free feats, magic booty, ability boosts, skill ranks, etc as he wants. Just remember -- without adjusting CRs, the game will break and the PCs will get bored killing everything with their pinkies.

Personally, I think there's no need for all the extras. It only makes the DMs job harder -- having to tweak the CRs, and risking needless death if you make a mistake. If you think your players are getting bored, I believe it's better to just accelerate the XP. And then slow it back down to normal when they're getting less bored and more involved. For me, advancing levels faster is more exciting than extra feats or booty.
ragoftag
01-10-08, 11:29 AM I just realized the point I was missing: 'Giving characters more feats'! If you give the PCs more feats, you absolutely MUST give the monsters more, as well! Orenmir is right when he sez: "Just remember -- without adjusting CRs, the game will break". The horrible beastie known as Balance will rear its ugly head. I might add that an intelligently adjusted set of feats and appropriate CRs become vital. A local 'GM' pulled the Fire template on a troll stunt just to prove he was studly and had to do a rewrite of the Resistance rules in his game or have a TPK. 'Course, it was NOT his fault we didn't have a way to kill a Fire resistant troll!:ahem:
Roog
01-12-08, 05:39 PM 1 per 2: 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20

...

What do you think? Does this work as a house rule?

How about 1 feat every odd level: 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19

This would give less of a rush of feats at the beginning, and mean that stat boosts and bonus feats would occur at different levels.
Fenrir_Greyback
01-12-08, 08:30 PM How about 1 feat every odd level: 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19

This would give less of a rush of feats at the beginning, and mean that stat boosts and bonus feats would occur at different levels.

This would work very well in my mind. Providing that you did the same with monsters/NPCs.
Xavon
01-13-08, 08:45 PM How about 1 feat every odd level: 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19

This would give less of a rush of feats at the beginning, and mean that stat boosts and bonus feats would occur at different levels.

It also doesn't interfere with the fighter.
Silvercrys
01-14-08, 07:17 AM I've had a houserule for around... Four months now. Everyone (monsters/NPCs included) gets a feat at first, and then they get new feats at every even level after (2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20).

So far, I haven't had anything break on me, but my group hasn't really been playing as often as we used to.
Panserbjorn_X
01-14-08, 12:15 PM I just realized the point I was missing: 'Giving characters more feats'! If you give the PCs more feats, you absolutely MUST give the monsters more, as well! Orenmir is right when he sez: "Just remember -- without adjusting CRs, the game will break". The horrible beastie known as Balance will rear its ugly head. I might add that an intelligently adjusted set of feats and appropriate CRs become vital. A local 'GM' pulled the Fire template on a troll stunt just to prove he was studly and had to do a rewrite of the Resistance rules in his game or have a TPK. 'Course, it was NOT his fault we didn't have a way to kill a Fire resistant troll!:ahem:

tangent/
Why not just knock it unconscious with non-lethal damage, and then Coup de Grace it?

It's the same thing as giving trolls rings of fire resistance, or levels in caster classes that gain access to Protection from Energy. Troll druid (or cleric) 5 (or more) anyone?
/tangent

Giving extra feats doesn't really make the PCs all that more powerful.There aren't any PrCs (except for Master of Many Forms, to my knowledge) that only have feat prereqs. And even then, RAW, MoMF can't be entered until 6th level. (Blah blah blah; take your totem druid elsewhere)

~PX~
Orenmir
01-14-08, 12:38 PM Giving extra feats doesn't really make the PCs all that more powerful.

Tell that to the CharOp board regulars. Especially at mid-to-high levels, even only one extra feat can begin to tip the scales. That's why a Fighter dip is so enticing to some!
Panserbjorn_X
01-14-08, 09:08 PM Taking into consideration that they critique builds over on the CO board, and a lot of times the OP doesn't want to change a couple feats they have picked.

Needing feat X and feat Y for a PrC that still has the requirement of needing Z ranks in one or more skills isn't subsumed by getting bonus feats from a DM.

You will also find on the CO board that it's not the feats that being the keystone of the build, it's the application of those feats. Getting the +2/+2 feats for free does nothing for a character. Even if they need one for a PrC, they still have to meet the other prereqs.

Show me at least a handful (at least five, and I have already listed one) of PrCs that have feat-only prereqs, and I might rethink my stance.

~PX~
MrWildman
01-15-08, 03:26 AM My group has a fairly constant default house rule about feats. We begin with one bonus feat at character creation (the "Feats are cool!" rule). After that, we assume that every 5 - 6 levels or so an appropriate time for another bonus feat will naturally present itself. A reward for a daring roleplaying choice, say, or a needed PrC prerequisite.

It's easy and flexible. Which is good, because we're lazy and easily distracted. :D
McPoyo
01-15-08, 02:19 PM I've often implemented an "Every odd level you gain a feat" house rule in a lot of the games I run. Doesn't trip over a fighter's feat allocation (Unless you just fail so hard you took odd levels of fighter. Bad!), and I've yet to see an instance where it caused game balance issues.
ragoftag
01-17-08, 09:56 AM Panserbjorn_X wrote:
Why not just knock it unconscious with non-lethal damage, and then Coup de Grace it?
A bad GM was at the base of this, he allowed the troll to regen from the Coup de Grace...twice! The sordid tale was truncated for brevity of answer, trust me this was but one instance within a poor excuse for a game.
McPoyo
01-17-08, 09:59 AM They would have had to have had a way to deal Lethal damage with that Coup De Grace, as well. Can't Coup De Grace with Nonlethal, and you can't Coup De Grace something with Regeneration unless you've got a way to bypass that Regen.

Although Acid would still have worked, iirc.
ragoftag
01-18-08, 11:04 PM McPoyo-They would have had to have had a way to deal Lethal damage with that Coup De Grace, as well. Nope. The 'GM' was showing his ultimate power over his game, being cool and showing how smart he is.
The original point was a warning against allowing the balance of the game to be compromised.
McPoyo
01-19-08, 08:13 AM I was just pointing out a technicality so no-one read that and assumed you could coup-de-grace anything with Regen without having a way to deal lethal damage :)

And yeah, Fire resistant/immune trolls are not cool at that low a level when you can't Baleful Polymorph them into something easier to handle. Like a Fiendish Sheep.
ragoftag
01-21-08, 02:16 AM Understood, 'fair play' is at the heart of both our posts.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Omni-Wyvernil 12-29-07, 05:31 PM	With the glut of splatbooks out at this point, it can be difficult to select just seven feats for your character(eight if you're human or playing as a fighter). So why not simply increase the number of feats characters get? For instance, give feats out every other level rather than every three levels. So, the average character would have eleven feats rather than seven, which could help out quite a bit. 1 per 3: 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 1 per 2: 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20 Of course, this would make characters like the fighter who rely on bonus feats even weaker. So, in addition, why not increase the number of bonus fighter feats to 1 per level? That way, fighters end up with a whopping 31 feats at level 20. Additionally, humans could be given two bonus feats rather than one if you feel more feats takes away their advantage too much. Of course, you'd have the make the monsters stronger to compensate for increased player strength, but this could help give characters greater diversity at lower levels. What do you think? Does this work as a house rule?
deathbane 12-29-07, 07:34 PM	If you can deal with overpowered characters. It can be hard to build the character you want with limited feats, but sometimes you just have to sacrifice.
PinkTaco 12-29-07, 07:47 PM	Why not just use flaws (UA)?
Senevri 12-29-07, 07:57 PM	Fix the traps, give B-class feats separately.
Xavon 12-29-07, 08:05 PM	Lots of people give more feats but less powerful treasure. I'm a fan of this myself.
ppirilla 12-30-07, 02:01 PM	There's a houserule that's been floating around for a while now: Every odd level you gain a feat, every even level you get +1 to an ability. To compensate, treasures are cut and stat-boosting items are banned. I've also been known to give "lesser" feats as rewards for good gameplay; mostly the +2/+2 skill feats and the like.
navar100 12-30-07, 02:19 PM	Also, don't outright ban prestige classes, but keep watch. Their prerequisites were designed for RAW feat allocation. If you are fine with some players getting into them earlier than normal, ok. Otherwise, you may need to add a feat prerequisite or two. If a prerequisite is based on skill ranks, then the minimum level to enter it remains regardless of the extra feats. You could also metagame it. Don't add any prerequisites, but make a deal with the player by fiat. You are being generous with the extra feats. The player doesn't milk it and enters the prestige class at the minimum level it would have required by RAW anyway.
calronmoonflower 12-30-07, 03:49 PM	There's a houserule that's been floating around for a while now: Every odd level you gain a feat, every even level you get +1 to an ability. To compensate, treasures are cut and stat-boosting items are banned. I remember that houserule in an article on the main sight.
JimProfit 12-30-07, 07:03 PM	I've always liked the idea of the fighter having a bonus feat per level, i also would expand his feat list to anything with the [General] category and make [Fighter] feats only he could take. :D My GM once did a thing so we could customize our characters and expriement with feats. What he did was he let us have four bonus feats. Not level or anything specific like that. Just four bonus feats at character creation.
ericSHINRA 12-30-07, 07:14 PM	The the idea of granting more feats does as the OP says, decreases the effectiveness of the Fighter. Also, what the Fighter needs is not more feats but actual Class Abilities.
ppirilla 12-30-07, 10:53 PM	I remember that houserule in an article on the main sight. Yeah, I know it was in an article at some point, but I don't think it originated there. Could be wrong, though.
JimProfit 12-31-07, 12:40 PM	Also, what the Fighter needs is not more feats but actual Class Abilities. Feats are like cowbell lol :P
ArochanoX 12-31-07, 12:50 PM	I like giving my players more abilities that come through feats that grant them more money to get the abilities. I reduced the gold and treasure the players get by 33%. But I grant them a feat every odd level and ability increase every even level. I also banned skill-boosting items. If a character wants to be good at some skill, he can always take skill focus IMO.
CrazyOzzy 01-01-08, 09:11 AM	I give PCs a feat every odd level + I allow them to be trained in some things as rewards by expert trainers + I give feats as rewards for great actions (the +2/+2 feats). To balance this all I do is simply grant the Monsters and NPCs the same thing. Monsters get a feat every 2HD instead of every 3HD. It Makes for better PCs, happier Players and Monsters are alot more interesting! The Players will encounter monsters with abilities they could not have imagined. Try changing a Great Wyrm's feats in this manner, or the Tarrasque...
Killy 01-02-08, 02:51 PM	I let the characters take 2 feats at first level instead of just 1. Feats with no prerequisites will hardly break any game so no problem here, and it has worked ok so far.
BigGus 01-02-08, 09:37 PM	I do the same as CrazyOzzy; everyone gets feats every odd-numbered level/HD, so it's mostly self-balancing. The only real downside is it's easier for a clever player to create broken characters if you give them more feats. The fighter may lose out a little in terms of power (not ideal...) but it makes them more interesting to level up in, since they get a new feat every single level. One way to balance things out is to use Tequila Sunrise's Supreme Weapon Focus/ Spec feats (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=966322, bottom of post #2) which the fighter can certainly afford with 21 feats by level 20 (or 22 if you're a human). There are literally dozens of other fighter fixes on these boards if you don't like them.
baronvonboxy 01-08-08, 02:20 PM	My DM gives us one extra feat at first, any of the +2 to saves feat, skill focus, toughness, or skill boost feats i.e. alertness. Pretty good for some prestige classes that need iron will or stealthy.
Orenmir 01-09-08, 11:08 AM	According to rule 0, a DM can give as many free feats, magic booty, ability boosts, skill ranks, etc as he wants. Just remember -- without adjusting CRs, the game will break and the PCs will get bored killing everything with their pinkies. Personally, I think there's no need for all the extras. It only makes the DMs job harder -- having to tweak the CRs, and risking needless death if you make a mistake. If you think your players are getting bored, I believe it's better to just accelerate the XP. And then slow it back down to normal when they're getting less bored and more involved. For me, advancing levels faster is more exciting than extra feats or booty.
ragoftag 01-10-08, 11:29 AM	I just realized the point I was missing: 'Giving characters more feats'! If you give the PCs more feats, you absolutely MUST give the monsters more, as well! Orenmir is right when he sez: "Just remember -- without adjusting CRs, the game will break". The horrible beastie known as Balance will rear its ugly head. I might add that an intelligently adjusted set of feats and appropriate CRs become vital. A local 'GM' pulled the Fire template on a troll stunt just to prove he was studly and had to do a rewrite of the Resistance rules in his game or have a TPK. 'Course, it was NOT his fault we didn't have a way to kill a Fire resistant troll!:ahem:
Roog 01-12-08, 05:39 PM	1 per 2: 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20 ... What do you think? Does this work as a house rule? How about 1 feat every odd level: 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19 This would give less of a rush of feats at the beginning, and mean that stat boosts and bonus feats would occur at different levels.
Fenrir_Greyback 01-12-08, 08:30 PM	How about 1 feat every odd level: 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19 This would give less of a rush of feats at the beginning, and mean that stat boosts and bonus feats would occur at different levels. This would work very well in my mind. Providing that you did the same with monsters/NPCs.
Xavon 01-13-08, 08:45 PM	How about 1 feat every odd level: 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19 This would give less of a rush of feats at the beginning, and mean that stat boosts and bonus feats would occur at different levels. It also doesn't interfere with the fighter.
Silvercrys 01-14-08, 07:17 AM	I've had a houserule for around... Four months now. Everyone (monsters/NPCs included) gets a feat at first, and then they get new feats at every even level after (2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20). So far, I haven't had anything break on me, but my group hasn't really been playing as often as we used to.
Panserbjorn_X 01-14-08, 12:15 PM	I just realized the point I was missing: 'Giving characters more feats'! If you give the PCs more feats, you absolutely MUST give the monsters more, as well! Orenmir is right when he sez: "Just remember -- without adjusting CRs, the game will break". The horrible beastie known as Balance will rear its ugly head. I might add that an intelligently adjusted set of feats and appropriate CRs become vital. A local 'GM' pulled the Fire template on a troll stunt just to prove he was studly and had to do a rewrite of the Resistance rules in his game or have a TPK. 'Course, it was NOT his fault we didn't have a way to kill a Fire resistant troll!:ahem: tangent/ Why not just knock it unconscious with non-lethal damage, and then Coup de Grace it? It's the same thing as giving trolls rings of fire resistance, or levels in caster classes that gain access to Protection from Energy. Troll druid (or cleric) 5 (or more) anyone? /tangent Giving extra feats doesn't really make the PCs all that more powerful.There aren't any PrCs (except for Master of Many Forms, to my knowledge) that only have feat prereqs. And even then, RAW, MoMF can't be entered until 6th level. (Blah blah blah; take your totem druid elsewhere) ~PX~
Orenmir 01-14-08, 12:38 PM	Giving extra feats doesn't really make the PCs all that more powerful. Tell that to the CharOp board regulars. Especially at mid-to-high levels, even only one extra feat can begin to tip the scales. That's why a Fighter dip is so enticing to some!
Panserbjorn_X 01-14-08, 09:08 PM	Taking into consideration that they critique builds over on the CO board, and a lot of times the OP doesn't want to change a couple feats they have picked. Needing feat X and feat Y for a PrC that still has the requirement of needing Z ranks in one or more skills isn't subsumed by getting bonus feats from a DM. You will also find on the CO board that it's not the feats that being the keystone of the build, it's the application of those feats. Getting the +2/+2 feats for free does nothing for a character. Even if they need one for a PrC, they still have to meet the other prereqs. Show me at least a handful (at least five, and I have already listed one) of PrCs that have feat-only prereqs, and I might rethink my stance. ~PX~
MrWildman 01-15-08, 03:26 AM	My group has a fairly constant default house rule about feats. We begin with one bonus feat at character creation (the "Feats are cool!" rule). After that, we assume that every 5 - 6 levels or so an appropriate time for another bonus feat will naturally present itself. A reward for a daring roleplaying choice, say, or a needed PrC prerequisite. It's easy and flexible. Which is good, because we're lazy and easily distracted. :D
McPoyo 01-15-08, 02:19 PM	I've often implemented an "Every odd level you gain a feat" house rule in a lot of the games I run. Doesn't trip over a fighter's feat allocation (Unless you just fail so hard you took odd levels of fighter. Bad!), and I've yet to see an instance where it caused game balance issues.
ragoftag 01-17-08, 09:56 AM	Panserbjorn_X wrote: Why not just knock it unconscious with non-lethal damage, and then Coup de Grace it? A bad GM was at the base of this, he allowed the troll to regen from the Coup de Grace...twice! The sordid tale was truncated for brevity of answer, trust me this was but one instance within a poor excuse for a game.
McPoyo 01-17-08, 09:59 AM	They would have had to have had a way to deal Lethal damage with that Coup De Grace, as well. Can't Coup De Grace with Nonlethal, and you can't Coup De Grace something with Regeneration unless you've got a way to bypass that Regen. Although Acid would still have worked, iirc.
ragoftag 01-18-08, 11:04 PM	McPoyo-They would have had to have had a way to deal Lethal damage with that Coup De Grace, as well. Nope. The 'GM' was showing his ultimate power over his game, being cool and showing how smart he is. The original point was a warning against allowing the balance of the game to be compromised.
McPoyo 01-19-08, 08:13 AM	I was just pointing out a technicality so no-one read that and assumed you could coup-de-grace anything with Regen without having a way to deal lethal damage :) And yeah, Fire resistant/immune trolls are not cool at that low a level when you can't Baleful Polymorph them into something easier to handle. Like a Fiendish Sheep.
ragoftag 01-21-08, 02:16 AM	Understood, 'fair play' is at the heart of both our posts.