Gridless! [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Gridless! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CryoSilver
10-24-07, 12:57 AM For my next game, I think I'm gong to try something new with my players. As you might know, we game with a projector and AutoCAD (CADkey now, but basically the same). And I thought it'd be interesting to do away with the grid (mostly) and just use distances. That'd be hard in a normal setting, but with CAD, distance is just a click away.

The big question is: how much space do creatures take up? Without a convenient "5 foot square" each creature needs a unique "footprint" so to speak.

Any suggestions?
SokenzanMarauder
10-24-07, 02:29 AM Why not just use standard measure (I'm not sure if CAD programs use an inch scale or pixel scale - Hopefully this is what you're looking for)?

Small creature = .5 in. or 16x16 pixels
Medium creature = 1 in. or 32x32 pixels
Large creature = 2 in. or 64x64 pixels

Etcetera.
CryoSilver
10-24-07, 02:42 PM CAD uses whatever measurement system you tell it when you install.

Mine's set to use metric, but we just say 1 meter = 1 foot for purposes of distance on screen, because it's such a hassle to change the units..

In any case, I'd prefer something more "organic" than squares, you know? Maybe circles and ovals (for tall and long creatures).
vorpo
10-24-07, 08:59 PM CAD uses whatever measurement system you tell it when you install.

Mine's set to use metric, but we just say 1 meter = 1 foot for purposes of distance on screen, because it's such a hassle to change the units..

In any case, I'd prefer something more "organic" than squares, you know? Maybe circles and ovals (for tall and long creatures).

I am guessing you mean you scale your map to use 1m as 1 ft. Anyway, I have thought of the same thing before. I still use a creature takes up 5' (circle instead of square I guess) for purpose of occupying the space. Other movement (passing through or squeeze through) use the same rules. Since this problem only arises (I think) in combat situations, it is perfectly sensible to rule a creature still occupies 5' circles (room for dodging/swinging weapons etc). If you don't want this, it be of a much much greater project to convert. Since you have to consider how to deal with AoO (whether the target passes through your threatened areas).
CryoSilver
10-24-07, 11:22 PM Threatened areas are pretty easy to determine using circles. A 5 foot diameter circle for the creature, and another 15 foot diameter circle as the threatened area, probably done in a dotted line. It's pretty simple to set them (and a name tag) as a single entity.
vorpo
10-25-07, 01:27 AM Threatened areas are pretty easy to determine using circles. A 5 foot diameter circle for the creature, and another 15 foot diameter circle as the threatened area, probably done in a dotted line. It's pretty simple to set them (and a name tag) as a single entity.

Yes, but what about creature movements with reach longer than 5 ft? How will you determine how many times one being leaves a certain creature's threatened areas? Even more so if the movement cuts the outer edge of the circle (like a tangent line)? The actual distance traveled might be less than 5 ft but can possibly provoke AoO twice.

Also, movements aren't linear enough which makes this judgement even trickier.
CryoSilver
10-25-07, 01:35 AM That's irrelevant: you can only make one AoO against any given creature in one round.
vorpo
10-25-07, 10:13 AM That's irrelevant: you can only make one AoO against any given creature in one round.

But that does mean he has 2 chances to make the choice, instead of one. Besides, can a character/creature conciously just walk outside the 5' reach? Without a grid, you'd have to think about how wide each person/creature is and thus if they can "squeeze" through without entering the 5' radius.

Also, AoO is provoked for leaving a threatened square into another threatened square. How are you gonna decide when he "leaves" from one to another threatened "square".
trapspringer
10-25-07, 10:46 AM Any movement of 5 meters (excepting the 5 meter step) while in a threatened space would provoke an attack of opportunity.
CryoSilver
10-25-07, 09:38 PM Movement and whether a creatures moves into a threatened space or not would be based on the path of travel: remember, since we're using CAD, it's all visual: you can see the path of the creature moving, and if it's path is more than about halfway into a threatened area for more than 5 feet, it'll provoke.

I'll reinstall CADkey (my laptop crashed a few weeks ago and I've been lazy about reinstalling stuff) and try to post examples.
CryoSilver
10-25-07, 10:07 PM Here we go
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/cryosilver/threat.jpg

1 is a medium sized creature. 2 is a large (long) creature. 3 is a large (tall) creature.

As 1 moves past 2, it provokes an AoO at the point indicated because it is at least halfway into the threatened area, and at the indicated point, it has been traveling through that area for 5 feet.

As 1 moves past 3 to the southwest, it does NOT provoke an AoO because it is less than halfway into the threatened area. As it moves past to the northeast, it provokes an AoO at the indicated point, because it has at that point, been moving through the threatened area for 5 feet.

Does that clear it up a bit? I can draft more examples if need be.

EDIT:
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/cryosilver/move1.jpg

This is just an example of the different kinds of movement afforded by not using a grid. In all cases (even the spline and curve), movement is almost exactly 30 feet (margin of error +/- 6 inches). Also, I realized I should turn up the line thicknesses, for simplicity of viewing. In the case of the first picture, I just traced over everything with brighter colors in Paint. :)

Distance traveled is calculated by the length of the centerline (not shown). I also discovered that CADkey does not come with a built-in spline length calculator, much to my chagrin. I found one that's simple to use though, so even that crazy curvy path isn't too hard to plot out.
vorpo
10-27-07, 05:40 PM Movement and whether a creatures moves into a threatened space or not would be based on the path of travel: remember, since we're using CAD, it's all visual: you can see the path of the creature moving, and if it's path is more than about halfway into a threatened area for more than 5 feet, it'll provoke.

I'll reinstall CADkey (my laptop crashed a few weeks ago and I've been lazy about reinstalling stuff) and try to post examples.

My key concern was: can players visually see the threatened circle thus avoid it when moving. Oh... another thing, how are you gonna deal with terrain movement impedence?
Knightblde
10-28-07, 12:06 AM FYI some of the AoO ideas listed above are incorrect

1) You can make 1 attack of opportunity against a single foe once per round for them MOVING OUT OF A THREATENED SQUARE.

2) It does not matter if the square they enter is threatened by you or not.

3) You may make more than one AoO if they provoke one another way, such as casting.

Besides, can a character/creature conciously just walk outside the 5' reach?

IRL they would stay 5' away, but they would judge your reach and try to stay out of it.

For the projector, why not use a projector program like Battlegrounds? It is made to figure a lot of this stuff out. I myself don't have a projector yet, but plan to and I am planning on using this program.
CryoSilver
10-28-07, 04:38 PM My key concern was: can players visually see the threatened circle thus avoid it when moving. Oh... another thing, how are you gonna deal with terrain movement impedence?

Yes, they can; it's noted as the red circle on the map, unless there's reason for it not to be (like an extending arm that they don't know about).

And areas of rough terrain count double for movement; they'll be noted on the map and measured out.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CryoSilver 10-24-07, 12:57 AM	For my next game, I think I'm gong to try something new with my players. As you might know, we game with a projector and AutoCAD (CADkey now, but basically the same). And I thought it'd be interesting to do away with the grid (mostly) and just use distances. That'd be hard in a normal setting, but with CAD, distance is just a click away. The big question is: how much space do creatures take up? Without a convenient "5 foot square" each creature needs a unique "footprint" so to speak. Any suggestions?
SokenzanMarauder 10-24-07, 02:29 AM	Why not just use standard measure (I'm not sure if CAD programs use an inch scale or pixel scale - Hopefully this is what you're looking for)? Small creature = .5 in. or 16x16 pixels Medium creature = 1 in. or 32x32 pixels Large creature = 2 in. or 64x64 pixels Etcetera.
CryoSilver 10-24-07, 02:42 PM	CAD uses whatever measurement system you tell it when you install. Mine's set to use metric, but we just say 1 meter = 1 foot for purposes of distance on screen, because it's such a hassle to change the units.. In any case, I'd prefer something more "organic" than squares, you know? Maybe circles and ovals (for tall and long creatures).
vorpo 10-24-07, 08:59 PM	CAD uses whatever measurement system you tell it when you install. Mine's set to use metric, but we just say 1 meter = 1 foot for purposes of distance on screen, because it's such a hassle to change the units.. In any case, I'd prefer something more "organic" than squares, you know? Maybe circles and ovals (for tall and long creatures). I am guessing you mean you scale your map to use 1m as 1 ft. Anyway, I have thought of the same thing before. I still use a creature takes up 5' (circle instead of square I guess) for purpose of occupying the space. Other movement (passing through or squeeze through) use the same rules. Since this problem only arises (I think) in combat situations, it is perfectly sensible to rule a creature still occupies 5' circles (room for dodging/swinging weapons etc). If you don't want this, it be of a much much greater project to convert. Since you have to consider how to deal with AoO (whether the target passes through your threatened areas).
CryoSilver 10-24-07, 11:22 PM	Threatened areas are pretty easy to determine using circles. A 5 foot diameter circle for the creature, and another 15 foot diameter circle as the threatened area, probably done in a dotted line. It's pretty simple to set them (and a name tag) as a single entity.
vorpo 10-25-07, 01:27 AM	Threatened areas are pretty easy to determine using circles. A 5 foot diameter circle for the creature, and another 15 foot diameter circle as the threatened area, probably done in a dotted line. It's pretty simple to set them (and a name tag) as a single entity. Yes, but what about creature movements with reach longer than 5 ft? How will you determine how many times one being leaves a certain creature's threatened areas? Even more so if the movement cuts the outer edge of the circle (like a tangent line)? The actual distance traveled might be less than 5 ft but can possibly provoke AoO twice. Also, movements aren't linear enough which makes this judgement even trickier.
CryoSilver 10-25-07, 01:35 AM	That's irrelevant: you can only make one AoO against any given creature in one round.
vorpo 10-25-07, 10:13 AM	That's irrelevant: you can only make one AoO against any given creature in one round. But that does mean he has 2 chances to make the choice, instead of one. Besides, can a character/creature conciously just walk outside the 5' reach? Without a grid, you'd have to think about how wide each person/creature is and thus if they can "squeeze" through without entering the 5' radius. Also, AoO is provoked for leaving a threatened square into another threatened square. How are you gonna decide when he "leaves" from one to another threatened "square".
trapspringer 10-25-07, 10:46 AM	Any movement of 5 meters (excepting the 5 meter step) while in a threatened space would provoke an attack of opportunity.
CryoSilver 10-25-07, 09:38 PM	Movement and whether a creatures moves into a threatened space or not would be based on the path of travel: remember, since we're using CAD, it's all visual: you can see the path of the creature moving, and if it's path is more than about halfway into a threatened area for more than 5 feet, it'll provoke. I'll reinstall CADkey (my laptop crashed a few weeks ago and I've been lazy about reinstalling stuff) and try to post examples.
CryoSilver 10-25-07, 10:07 PM	Here we go http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/cryosilver/threat.jpg 1 is a medium sized creature. 2 is a large (long) creature. 3 is a large (tall) creature. As 1 moves past 2, it provokes an AoO at the point indicated because it is at least halfway into the threatened area, and at the indicated point, it has been traveling through that area for 5 feet. As 1 moves past 3 to the southwest, it does NOT provoke an AoO because it is less than halfway into the threatened area. As it moves past to the northeast, it provokes an AoO at the indicated point, because it has at that point, been moving through the threatened area for 5 feet. Does that clear it up a bit? I can draft more examples if need be. EDIT: http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/cryosilver/move1.jpg This is just an example of the different kinds of movement afforded by not using a grid. In all cases (even the spline and curve), movement is almost exactly 30 feet (margin of error +/- 6 inches). Also, I realized I should turn up the line thicknesses, for simplicity of viewing. In the case of the first picture, I just traced over everything with brighter colors in Paint. :) Distance traveled is calculated by the length of the centerline (not shown). I also discovered that CADkey does not come with a built-in spline length calculator, much to my chagrin. I found one that's simple to use though, so even that crazy curvy path isn't too hard to plot out.
vorpo 10-27-07, 05:40 PM	Movement and whether a creatures moves into a threatened space or not would be based on the path of travel: remember, since we're using CAD, it's all visual: you can see the path of the creature moving, and if it's path is more than about halfway into a threatened area for more than 5 feet, it'll provoke. I'll reinstall CADkey (my laptop crashed a few weeks ago and I've been lazy about reinstalling stuff) and try to post examples. My key concern was: can players visually see the threatened circle thus avoid it when moving. Oh... another thing, how are you gonna deal with terrain movement impedence?
Knightblde 10-28-07, 12:06 AM	FYI some of the AoO ideas listed above are incorrect 1) You can make 1 attack of opportunity against a single foe once per round for them MOVING OUT OF A THREATENED SQUARE. 2) It does not matter if the square they enter is threatened by you or not. 3) You may make more than one AoO if they provoke one another way, such as casting. Besides, can a character/creature conciously just walk outside the 5' reach? IRL they would stay 5' away, but they would judge your reach and try to stay out of it. For the projector, why not use a projector program like Battlegrounds? It is made to figure a lot of this stuff out. I myself don't have a projector yet, but plan to and I am planning on using this program.
CryoSilver 10-28-07, 04:38 PM	My key concern was: can players visually see the threatened circle thus avoid it when moving. Oh... another thing, how are you gonna deal with terrain movement impedence? Yes, they can; it's noted as the red circle on the map, unless there's reason for it not to be (like an extending arm that they don't know about). And areas of rough terrain count double for movement; they'll be noted on the map and measured out.