Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gilean 09-13-05, 10:47 AM	This is a simple thread to get ideas on gritty form of D&D. The goal is to introduce as few, and as simple, houserules as possible to make the game grittier, while not completely breaking it. All cases covered by core should be covered by the house rule. Additional rules that are not mandatory but are deemed beneficial can be added. Here's mine: Ability damage from normal attacks Each character has normal hit points. Normal damage first reduces character's hit point to 0. After that, the attack deals ability damage, as follows Strength: Crushing, force Dexterity: Slashing, electricity, cold Constitution: Piercing, acid, fire, default [aka all that is not spelled out elsewhere] Critical hits cause normal damage to ability score, and rest of damage to hit points. For example, longsword with no strength would cause d8 dexterity damage and d8 hit point damage. Subdual damage always deal hit point damage. Any character with 0 hit points that takes damage must succeed at a fortitude save DC damage dealt or become unconscious. A -4 penalty to attack roll can be taken to inflict different type of ability damage or to deal subdual/standard damage when the other is default. Any creature with 0 hit points is fatigued. Creatures with no con are not affected by critical piercings. Other critical damage applies as normal. They are destroyed at 0 hit points. Note, this is not an official competition of any sort. No reward is given. No ranking is used, unless such is wished for. Consider this a resource for grittier gameplay.
weasel fierce 09-14-05, 01:44 PM	Various random ideas: Cut all HP gains above level 1 in half. Death at -5 instead of -10 HP Going below 0 has a chance of causing physical attribute loss. Raising from the dead incurs permanent Constitution loss NO raise dead whatsoever Roll ability scores in order, particularly if you use 3D6. Give XP for killing things only, if killing said things was actually important to the overall objective, or a personal character goal
Gilean 09-14-05, 02:15 PM	Cut all HP gains above level 1 in half.Crude, but efficient. Some work with monsters, though.Death at -5 instead of -10 HPDoes not work alone all too well, but could enhance other variants.Going below 0 has a chance of causing physical attribute loss.Each round, a fortitude DC 10 + negative hp (17 at -7, for example)?Raising from the dead incurs permanent Constitution lossOr raise doesn't repair the body. This could work and is easy to explain.NO raise dead whatsoeverMy personal favourite. They are not available unless you go the the Underworld and cheat/negotiate the deceased out. And it always has a price.Roll ability scores in order, particularly if you use 3D6.If players run with it, fine. The point of playing D&D (instead of something else) is usually to play heroic characters, and this takes some of it away.Give XP for killing things only, if killing said things was actually important to the overall objective, or a personal character goalWhat, a house rule? Damn. I read something about experience being granted when defeating challenges. I don't consider it a challenge to get lost in the woods and attack random, innocent boars. Unless one is starving. IOW, this one is given.
Koga:The ninja trick 09-14-05, 06:56 PM	Only three.. #1: Druids/Clerics are banned. (Anyone can worship a diety, what makes them so special?) #2: All casters after every spell must make a DC Fortitude save of 10+the spell's level or become dazed for 1 round +1 round for every 2 spell levels. (To a maximum of 3.) #3: Characters must roll for HP even at first level. Trust The Koga, without realiable spellcasters the game becomes alot more gritty and the players will actuallu have to use thier brains.
Phrennzy 09-14-05, 07:00 PM	I lean with Koga. But I would have one simple rule. No Magical Forms of Healing/Curing/Resurrection That's it. When you have to spend three weeks waiting for your hit points to recover, you have grit.
Xeviat-DM 09-15-05, 12:09 AM	Here are the (X) elements I want to add to my games to institute a more gritty feel of realism in my games. A number of them have already been developed, and are going to be introduced once all the kinks can be rubbed out. Wounds: I will still call HP HP, but have introduced wound points. All weapons have their critical multipliers reduced by one, but weapons with x2 and x3 multipliers do deal extra wound damage on critical hits. On a critical hit, you deal wound and hp damage. Fatigue/Exhaustion: Fatigue and Exhaustion apply their ability score penalties to all ability scores, not just Strength and Dexterity. You are fatigued at 1/2 hp or when you take 1 point of wound damage, and are exhausted at 0 hp or 0 wounds. Fort save to resist death: I'm using a modification of the UA fort save to resist death mechanic; the difference is that hp is tracked into negatives, and every additional attack has a higher save based on how far into the negatives you are. Class Defense: This is the portion that I'm still working on; I want to have class defense bonuses and change armor to be DR (shields still add AC). Natural AC would be DR and wouldn't stack with armor. Called Shot: I'm working on a called shot mechanic. Basically you can direct attacks at specific areas, which all have AC bonuses based on their size. A called shot provokes an attack of opportunity without the Improved Called Shot feat, and deals normal damage as well as forcing a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/5 damage dealt). A failed save means the character has suffered an injury, giving them a -2 penalty to checks with that limb. A critical hit during a called shot automatically imposes this penalty, and disables the limb on a failed save (representing a broken bone). Attacks of Opportunity and Readied Actions: These actions now force their target to make a concentration check to continue the action. A failed concentration check means the action fails; in the case of movement, the subject looses that 5 ft. of movement, but can continue normally if they have movement left. This makes these attacks more tactically advantageous, especially in the case of Readied Actions. I need a hand with the armor/class AC system, but otherwise it's all working nicely.
weasel fierce 09-15-05, 12:35 AM	The "no raise" is by far the simplest and easiest way of making D&D gritty, without mucking with the rules a lot. For the ability scores in order, you could easily do it with 4D6 drop, (I use this for AD&D), but rolling in order, IMO, gives a lot more interesting characters, as you wont be optimized for everything. Its a question of taste though, as it reduces customization options for the player. My idea about XP isnt really anything new I think, as opposed to just something that needs to be paid a bit more attention to, IMO.
caeruleus 09-15-05, 12:35 AM	Trust The Koga, without realiable spellcasters the game becomes alot more gritty and the players will actuallu have to use thier brains. I agree with The Koga. I've recently started a campaign without any magic, and it definitely has that gritty feeling. Here are some other suggestions. Get rid of alignment. Let the world be an amoral place, no objective good or evil, and people do what they do to survive. Perhaps have consequences for being reduced in hp, but before you hit 0. Maybe penalties to attacks and skill checks (and maybe even AC if you're in that sort of mood) when the PC hits half of full hp. Then double the penalties when they reach a quarter of full hp.
Xeviat-DM 09-15-05, 12:49 AM	Get rid of alignment. Let the world be an amoral place, no objective good or evil, and people do what they do to survive. So that means the world is full of evil people, since everybody is selfishly trying to survive rather than work towards better ends? I don't see how removing alignment makes for a more gritty game. It may make for a darker world, probably a more violent world. But grit comes more from the deadliness of combat, not the frequency. In fact, in a more gritty game, people should be fighting less because they're going to need several days, even weeks, to recover from some horrible wounds. One thing to do to make the game more gritty is have characters contract diseases on the battlefield, especially from exposure or infected wounds. A simple way to reduce the power of spellcasters is reduce the full casters to 1 through 6th level spells, like the bardic progression, and increase their stats accordingly (probably don't have to change the druid or cleric in anyway, but you should increase the HD of the wizard and sorcerer). That would increase the cost of magic items, because the items will need to be crafted with higher caster levels.
weasel fierce 09-15-05, 12:53 AM	Removing alignments doesnt in itself result in a darker game, but it will result in a more sane game ;) For inspiration on gritty games, you could do worse than check out GURPS, Warhammer (The rpg, not the mini's game) and Runequest. Grit can come from a lot of other things too, like the campaign world, the character concepts and starting posessions. If you're a peasant militia man from a backwater town, things are different than if you;re a royal knight
Gilean 09-15-05, 12:12 PM	#1: Druids/Clerics are banned. (Anyone can worship a diety, what makes them so special?)I have clerics. But they simply announce they are channeling the power of their god. what happens is up to the god. One with high expertise in the matter can select a few miracles one can ask for specifically.#2: All casters after every spell must make a DC Fortitude save of 10+the spell's level or become dazed for 1 round +1 round for every 2 spell levels. (To a maximum of 3.)This is nasty. Me likes.#3: Characters must roll for HP even at first level.Works, but first level characters are fragile in any case.When you have to spend three weeks waiting for your hit points to recover, you have grit.That requires something more. The healing rate was 1 hit point per level per day of rest, IIRC. And heal skill doubles that. My variant does that better. One way to deal wioth magical healing is to use it as damage conversion. Normal damage into subdual, or subdual healed, equal to the normal amount.Wounds: I will still call HP HP, but have introduced wound points. All weapons have their critical multipliers reduced by one, but weapons with x2 and x3 multipliers do deal extra wound damage on critical hits. On a critical hit, you deal wound and hp damage.I prefer to use the ability scores. It does the reduced capacity to fight-portion better and is dangerous, also.Class Defense: This is the portion that I'm still working on; I want to have class defense bonuses and change armor to be DR (shields still add AC). Natural AC would be DR and wouldn't stack with armor.A bit beside the thread, but I suggest follwing: Half level for classes with full BAB, 1/3 for medium BAB, 1/4 for low BAB. Functionally equivalent to halved BAB. Reduce this by check penalty, if wished.The "no raise" is by far the simplest and easiest way of making D&D gritty, without mucking with the rules a lot.One doing this wold be wise to slightly nerf instadeath spells and abilities, increase their levels and CRs.Its a question of taste though, as it reduces customization options for the player.In my current game, the players could choose their stats and skills freely. Even though all the three characters were made independently all of them share roughly the same power level. Trusting one's players goes a long way towards good games.Get rid of alignment. Let the world be an amoral place, no objective good or evil, and people do what they do to survive.Done. The world is amoral and harsh place. Fortunately, people have enough sense to trust each other. Otherwise there would be no people left.One thing to do to make the game more gritty is have characters contract diseases on the battlefield, especially from exposure or infected wounds.The healing system of my homebrew simulates this to satisfaction. In terms of D&D, a foritude save is required to heal; too lousy a roll causes further damage.For inspiration on gritty games, you could do worse than check out GURPS, Warhammer (The rpg, not the mini's game) and Runequest.Checked, GMd (though I don't like the kill system nor the random characters and am not familiar with the world), GMd a variant (stormbringer, inwhich magic was extremely imbalanced; summoner either dies or gets something of great power).Grit can come from a lot of other things too, like the campaign world, the character concepts and starting posessions. If you're a peasant militia man from a backwater town, things are different than if you;re a royal knightThe rules and the world shape each other. One is gritty, the other becomes or should be made into such.
caeruleus 09-15-05, 01:17 PM	So that means the world is full of evil people, since everybody is selfishly trying to survive rather than work towards better ends? I don't see how removing alignment makes for a more gritty game. It may make for a darker world, probably a more violent world. But grit comes more from the deadliness of combat, not the frequency. In fact, in a more gritty game, people should be fighting less because they're going to need several days, even weeks, to recover from some horrible wounds. First of all, the world wouldn't be full of evil people. That assumes objective morals, and assumes that survival can only be had in one way. Some survive by banding together and helping each other out. Others survive by selfish means. Gilean gets it: Done. The world is amoral and harsh place. Fortunately, people have enough sense to trust each other. Otherwise there would be no people left. Thomas Hobbes would be proud. Second, I simply don't see why combat would increase in frequency if alignment were dropped. Maybe you think that because rather than dropping alignment, you're keeping it and making everyone evil. Think of the sword and sorcery genre. Yes, the deadliness of combat is large part of it, but there's plenty of other elements that give the world the right flavor. Think Conan. Think Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. Or, note weasel's comment: Grit can come from a lot of other things too, like the campaign world, the character concepts and starting posessions. If you're a peasant militia man from a backwater town, things are different than if you;re a royal knight