Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ace_of_Diamonds 02-11-07, 12:16 PM	This might belong in the Races forum, but I'll put it here for now. Anyway, my friends were sitting around discussing races. We came up to half-orcs, and all of us thought it was rather silly that they had a net -2 to their ability score adjustments. We didn't think that removing one of the -2 adjustments was unbalancing, so we removed the Intelligence penalty to make the adjustments +2 Strength, -2 Charisma. Half-orcs apparently don't come across as particularly dumb to our group, I guess. Then again, all of us play far too much World of Warcraft and think of the orcs like they're Thrall's Orcish Horde. Anyway, what do you guys think of that little adjustment to half-orcs?
Sticks_Arq_Stones 02-11-07, 12:24 PM	Hmm I'm not an expert but I've heard people say that +2 strength is worth two –2’s. I however I think it sounds fine, half-orcs don’t really get anything else anyway. I don’t know if this is already your plan, but adjusting the orcs role in your game a little could be a good way to make this change make more sense. For example, instead of the blood thirsty barbarians they could just hail from a different land then humans, owning their own kingdoms and making their own laws. Anyway probably more of a response then you needed, hope it helps.
FrostHammer 02-11-07, 01:22 PM	I think half-orc should have what you house-ruled, and in addition, get either bonus skillpoints OR a bonus feat like humans do. And they treat the Orc double-axe as a martial weapon.
Shadowfax7 02-11-07, 01:47 PM	IMC, rather than remove the Int penalty I would add a +2 Con. This harkens back to previous editions of D&D where the Half-Orc also got a bonus to Con.
Ace_of_Diamonds 02-11-07, 01:56 PM	Hmm I'm not an expert but I've heard people say that +2 strength is worth two –2’s. I however I think it sounds fine, half-orcs don’t really get anything else anyway. I don’t know if this is already your plan, but adjusting the orcs role in your game a little could be a good way to make this change make more sense. For example, instead of the blood thirsty barbarians they could just hail from a different land then humans, owning their own kingdoms and making their own laws. Anyway probably more of a response then you needed, hope it helps. That does remind me, though, I was considering removing the orc race entirely (the MM entry) from my games and calling a half-orc a full-blooded orc instead, using the PHB stats (plus removing the INT penalty). It would require a massive rewrite of the flavor/fluff of orcs, but I think I like it.
Crashy75 02-11-07, 02:50 PM	That does remind me, though, I was considering removing the orc race entirely (the MM entry) from my games and calling a half-orc a full-blooded orc instead, using the PHB stats (plus removing the INT penalty). It would require a massive rewrite of the flavor/fluff of orcs, but I think I like it. I've been doing this from the start. (I used orc fluff). I removed the cha penalty. Also removed the cha penalty for dwarves and gave them a dex pen. Both of those races always seemed pretty self-confident to me. (I see most members of both having ranks in intimidate but not diplomacy or bluff- more cultural traits than inborn)
EvilVegan 02-11-07, 02:55 PM	The best option I've seen: +2 str, -2 Int. Skill point bonus as human Orc weapons are martial +2 Racial bonus on Intimidate checks
Crashy75 02-11-07, 03:09 PM	The best option I've seen: +2 str, -2 Int. Skill point bonus as human Orc weapons are martial +2 Racial bonus on Intimidate checks ohhh yeah. That too. Except the bonus sp's. Never thought of that.
ShinoAburame 02-11-07, 03:31 PM	I never liked halfbreeds, not only are they weak but they're irrelevant game wise. Being raised an orc in a human enviorment is hard enough, why need you be a half-orc? And maybe you could be a half-orc in RP, but game mechanics wise you either be a human or orc. (Your choice) It shouldn't really matter. Do you see half gnomes/half elves? Half dwarves/Half goblins? No.. Apparently only humans can breed outside thier race, but it just makes alot of unnescrey bullcrap. Here's what I would advise for the orc fix. You'll notice I give'em auto profficietcy with thier race weapon, if it's thie race weapon, why are only a select few proficient with it? Same go's for gnomes and the gnome-hook hammer... or the dwarven waraxe... NOTE: Orcs no longer have darkvision in this version. Orc (Either a pure orc or someone who wants to RP as a half-orc) Medium size. Base speed: 20ft. +2 strength -2 charisma -2 intelligence Gains auto profficietcy with the orc-double axe. Consider the orc one size larger when caculating damage die rolls. (For example, a club for a medium size creature is 1d6, for a large creature it's 1d8. You treat the club as 1d8 damage with an orc) I think this is fairly balanced, he's slow, uncharming, dimwitted, but at the cost of 50gold can shuffle your body with a double-bladed axe that deals a whopping 1d20 damage! (That's not counting strength modifier)
Tyler Do'Urden 02-11-07, 04:21 PM	A half-orc is a sword. He's not good for much really, he's just designed for killing people. But what little he does, he does very well. I'm fine with the half-orc as is.
EvilVegan 02-11-07, 05:28 PM	ohhh yeah. That too. Except the bonus sp's. Never thought of that. Well the int penalty shows that they're not very good at skills involving intelligence and the skill point bonus makes it so that they're still good at learning their other skills. Since humans have a skill point bonus for no reason (they aren't smarter, they're just better at learning) I figured half-orcs should have it and still be dumber than a human (effectively making them equal to other PHB races in terms of learning, but better than an orc and worse than a human).
bholdr_mage 02-11-07, 06:31 PM	Actually, how about this: +2 str -4 cha +2 on Intimidate and Sense Motive. Half-orcs are reknown for their ability to look menacing in the face of danger and staring it down with the looks of their brute force. Because of this, it makes them good judges of action and character. +1 skill point per level. Half-orcs are not as adapting as their human counterparts, but more so than from their orc heritage. Orc blood. Half-orcs can use the orc-double axe and other orc related items as if they were a full-blooded orc. Their rich history in these obscurities are from years of battle within their blood making it very easy to pick up and carry with tradition.
Ace_of_Diamonds 02-11-07, 10:48 PM	Actually, how about this: +2 str -4 cha Well, the initial idea was to eliminate the fact that they have a net negative to their ability scores. +2 Strength and -4 Charisma is still a net of -2.
Cyanide300 02-11-07, 11:23 PM	Well, if you're playing a melee combat oriented character, and a half-orc doesn't have a cumulative -2 then there's pretty much no reason not to be one. Why would anyone playing a fighter or barbarian not go for a race with +2 Str if they only have to take a -2 cha (easily the least useful fighter ability). The half-orc's reduced int often puts some fighter feats out of reach, meaning there may be a reason not to play a half-orc if you're a fighter.
Ace_of_Diamonds 02-12-07, 12:08 AM	Well, if you're playing a melee combat oriented character, and a half-orc doesn't have a cumulative -2 then there's pretty much no reason not to be one. Why would anyone playing a fighter or barbarian not go for a race with +2 Str if they only have to take a -2 cha (easily the least useful fighter ability). The half-orc's reduced int often puts some fighter feats out of reach, meaning there may be a reason not to play a half-orc if you're a fighter. Your concerns are really just confirmations as to the mindset I'm trying to instill by removing the Int penalty. Right now, none of my regular players will even consider playing an orc. Removing the Int penalty would give them an incentive. And if you simply want more survivability for a fighter or barbarian, who wouldn't play a dwarf? +2 Con (1 extra hit point a level) for -2 Charisma (a stat you don't use, according to you).
CaoSlayer 02-12-07, 12:51 PM	In addition to the improved charisma, I like to give the half-orc a benefit change depending of his background... Human raised background: Favoured class: any. Skill bonuses:Bluff and Disguise +2: Half-Orcs usually ashamed of his lineage use to disimulate and lie pretending to be only ugly people. Orc raised background: Favoured class: barbarian. Skill bonuses: intimidate and survival +2: In Orc´s tribes half-orcs are the lowest of the lower, they must try to impose themselves over other orcs and must find ways to survive by themselves with little help. If I were to give a profiency to an orc, it would be greataxe or battleaxe as simple weapons, orc double weapons are too exotic since orcs rarely use them.
Cyanide300 02-12-07, 01:02 PM	Well if you're playing a barbarian, Half-orc is the way to go. They don't care about int or cha. They just smash things. That's the incentive to play a half-orc, seeing as how barbarian is its favored class. With the way things are, half-orcs are great barbarians. They don't care about feats like the fighter does, and the str bonus makes their rage even better. The increased Str of an orc gives you extra damage and a higher chance to hit. That's 2 combat bonuses instead of the 1 that con provides (1 extra HP per level). It also increases your carrying capacities, makes it easier to move and break obsticles (such as with bull rush or overrun), as well as giving you +1 on all the str based skills a fighter or barbarian gets. As a dwarf, you get a +2 con, which gives you 1 extra HP per level, +1 on your fort save, and makes it a little easier to hold your breath or run long distances (two things that are used much less often than carrying gear and moving obsticles). You don't get any bonuses to important fighter skills, but you still take the same penalty to intimidate, as well as any other cha based check you might make. If you take the int penalty away from half-orcs, that makes less incentive to play a dwarf if you want to be a fighter, and fighter is the dwarf's favored class. IMO a half-orc with no int penalty is a better fighter than a dwarf. The half-orc does more damage and is more likely to hit. Still moves at the same speed in full-plate, but has the option to move faster if he wears lighter armor. A half-orc is better at sundering, better at bull rushing opponents, better at overrunning (thought the dwarf is better at resisting those), better at disarming, better at grappling, better at tripping, and better at charging (faster speed and higher attack and damage). The half-orc's str bonus makes it better than a dwarf at pretty much every special combat action. Any fighter in his right mind would give up 1 hp per level to be better at all those essential actions, especially when he gets all the fighter feats to make them even more effective. The only incentive to play a fighter as a dwarf rather than a half-orc is that the dwarf is more likely to have access to the int based fighter feats. But you're taking that away. IMO you're just trading a percieved inbalance towards dwarven fighters for an inbalance towards half-orc fighters. Half-orcs are already very capable fighters. They're just less likely to have access to the int based fighter feats, and they aren't as good at crafing their own weapons. You're the DM of your game, but if it was me I wouldn't cave to the players on this one. For as much as a fighter benefits from extra strength, the -2 int and cha is a fair trade IMO.
ZombieDragon 02-12-07, 01:30 PM	At our table H-orc's remove the -2 to cha and gain racial familiarity with orc weapons(double axe). H-orcs are the weakest of all the races in the PHb from an overall power standpoint.
EvilVegan 02-12-07, 01:56 PM	When BESM redid all the PHB races and set them up with a system of points halforcs got a 1 and humans got a 6. Dwarves and halflings got 7.
Climhazzard 02-12-07, 04:05 PM	When BESM redid all the PHB races and set them up with a system of points halforcs got a 1 and humans got a 6. Dwarves and halflings got 7. True, but keep in mind that if we took the 5 extra character points half-orcs got, I could have a half-orc with... Base movement 0 +2 Strength 1 +2 Intelligence 1 Bonus Feat 2 Darkvision 1 Orc blood 1 Total Value 6 Final Cost 0 ...so BESM is not the best judge of racial power. For my game, I've decided to remove the Intelligence and Charisma penalties, and add instead, a Wisdom penalty. That way, the half-orc retains the fact that they are smarter than full-blooded orcs (as stated in a handful of WOTC products) and it doesn't fall into the "you're ugly, so you get a -2 Cha" area. And how disasterous is it for the group's melee fighter to fail a Will save?
Ace_of_Diamonds 02-12-07, 04:09 PM	For my game, I've decided to remove the Intelligence and Charisma penalties, and add instead, a Wisdom penalty. That way, the half-orc retains the fact that they are smarter than full-blooded orcs (as stated in a handful of WOTC products) and it doesn't fall into the "you're ugly, so you get a -2 Cha" area. And how disasterous is it for the group's melee fighter to fail a Will save? I am totally stealing that idea now.
bholdr_mage 02-12-07, 05:53 PM	Except that wisdom is important for Gatekeeper knowledge (uh...druids) in Eberron, so a wisdom penalty would be stupid. In other settings, the wis modifier instead is ok. I had a -4 to cha because str IS better than cha (generally speaking, unless in a very social campaign) and arguably better than int. I like skill points, so that's why I decided to go with the -4 to cha. Anyway, while getting rid of a -2 penalty may seem ingenious, it's actually quite balanced. Any other race against a half-orc in melee, without the help of magic (or with the same amount of magic) at the same level...the half-orc statistically will beat the crap out of each other race (LA +0). Because they hit harder as a whole. Adding something to the half-orc race does seem necessary though.
Kadasbrass 02-12-07, 06:18 PM	I removed the -2 cha for my half-orcs. I don't think a -2 int reflects that a race is dumb. Normally either their slower at learning new stuff (reflecting less skill points) or due to cultural or living arrangements that a race has few opportunities to learn stuff outside of whats needed for survival. I feel that an penalty score penalty needs to have some effect on a race other then just skill modifiers (ignoring the impact it has for the different classes). I don't use charisma penalties since the only characters that would be affected won't play it to begin with. I rarely use strenght penalties, but can use it for a few races since it effects more then just skills, but I do it only for a few races. Str still effects melee based attacks and damage. I normally keep ability score penalties between Con, Int, Dex, and Wis. Since these effect saves, skill points, hit points, and AC. Effecting all characters regardless of class.
Climhazzard 02-13-07, 09:04 PM	Except that wisdom is important for Gatekeeper knowledge (uh...druids) in Eberron, so a wisdom penalty would be stupid. In other settings, the wis modifier instead is ok. That's nice, but keep in mind that the first humanoid druids in Eberron were orcs, a race with a Wisdom penalty. You can justify why certain races and cultures favor classes they would be bad or mediocre in (high elf wizards, anyone?) with good backstory.
Argo 02-14-07, 06:51 PM	Not all people who play Half-Orcs are playing melee types. I am currently playing a Half-Orc Rogue, and we've got a Half-Orc Wizard as well. It's very difficult to pull off, but ultimately, I'm finding myself propelled by my race into a direction I usually don't go as a Rogue. I am focusing more on my Climbing and Jumping ability, as they play off of my racially-augmented strength, and relying less on my Bluff and other skills, as my racially-depleted Charisma and Intelligence make it difficult. If I could remove the Charisma penalty for Half-Orcs, I think that would go a long way toward helping them acheive balance. Although, someone mentioned that they remove one of the penalties to Int or Cha (Player's choice) and give the Half-Orc the Scent ability as well as auto-proficiency in Orc Doubleaxe. A +2 racial bonus on Intimidate and -2 on Diplomacy wouldn't hurt the flavor of the Half-Orcs either. I think that the Half-Orc really has been pigeonholed as a race into always being the dumb meatshield, and playing any other class than barbarian or fighter is fighting an uphill battle. The key to achieving balance is to make it so multiple classes can consider the race a viable option. A -2 to Intelligence and Charisma make it a poor choice for: Bards, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Rangers, Rogues, Sorcerers, and Wizards. And that's just from the PHB. In some ways, it's fun fighting an uphill battle. But in other ways, I keep getting killed.
Crashy75 02-14-07, 07:12 PM	I've also seen a variant that allowed the player to select any 2 of the 3 mental attributes for their penalty. So a wiz might have a -2 to wiz and cha. I can't say I liked it though.
Kadasbrass 02-14-07, 07:49 PM	I don't like the idea of choosing your penalties since it lets people but in it the spot of least importance.
Tyler Do'Urden 02-14-07, 08:41 PM	Not all people who play Half-Orcs are playing melee types.That's their fault. The race is built for melee combat. If you're going to deliberately make a suboptimal choice, you don't get to mitigate that by altering the game mechanics so that it's no longer suboptimal. Either accept the penalties or play a different race.
Climhazzard 02-14-07, 09:10 PM	I'm curious; do people think the half-orc is underpowered (like the high-level fighter), or somewhat boring but useable (like the sorcerer)?
Crashy75 02-14-07, 09:31 PM	I'm curious; do people think the half-orc is underpowered (like the high-level fighter), or somewhat boring but useable (like the sorcerer)? In some ways both. Underpowered compared to other core races. Boring but usable as a barbarian.
Kadasbrass 02-14-07, 09:33 PM	The Half-Orc suffers problems similar to the fighter. It lacks racial traits. +2 Str and Darkvision, thats it. Since the Half-Orc has limited roles it can excel at, it suffers in the high end game from its lack of traits and lack of decent class roles. Though the Half-orc does make a decent cleric if your not concerned about turning undead.
Crashy75 02-14-07, 09:45 PM	Also a decent druid. You can dump strength and still rock the house.
Argo 02-15-07, 05:00 AM	That's their fault. The race is built for melee combat. If you're going to deliberately make a suboptimal choice, you don't get to mitigate that by altering the game mechanics so that it's no longer suboptimal. Either accept the penalties or play a different race. I guess I wasn't clear in my post, but we didn't houserule anything. We're doing things strictly by the book in my game. The point of the OP, I believe, was that a houserule to improve the Half-Orcs would serve to make the race not "suboptimal" for everyone but a melee-type. And, technically, Tyler, you DO get to mitigate it by houseruling if you choose. Rule 0 = All's fair.
Argo 02-15-07, 05:01 AM	Also a decent druid. You can dump strength and still rock the house. Don't Druids need a good Handle Animal?
Tyler Do'Urden 02-15-07, 09:01 AM	We're doing things strictly by the book in my game.I didn't mean you specifically, I was speaking in hypothetical terms.
Krusk 02-15-07, 06:15 PM	Don't Druids need a good Handle Animal? not amazing, just throw some ranks in it and it will balance out enough.
Ace_of_Diamonds 02-16-07, 01:15 AM	I'm curious; do people think the half-orc is underpowered (like the high-level fighter), or somewhat boring but useable (like the sorcerer)? I personally thought the half-orc was underpowered because of their total lack of versatiliy. They make decent fighters and barbarians, but the fact that they're pretty much bad for anything else isn't really made up for in being significantly better at being a fighter or barbarian than any other race. Hence unbalanced and underpowered.
Soltares 02-17-07, 02:59 AM	I'm partial to Sean Reynolds house rule; House rule: Half-orcs do not have a Charisma penalty. Half-orcs get a -1 penalty to Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Handle Animal checks. That one works for me, since I'm partial to the idea of Half-Orc Sorcerers, and the Charisma penalty was particularly bothersome. Orc Wizards doesn't seem to fit the race as well, so I'm cool with retaining the Int penalty. With penalties to both Int and Cha, I feel that the race is straightjacketed into a very limited set of roles. More options are always better, IMO, and while a +2 Str is sexy, I *still* wouldn't pick it over the human bonus feat for a Fighter build. He also speculated about giving them (and full-blooded Orcs, for that matter) Weapon Familiarity with the Orc Double Axe.
TwiddleStootch 02-17-07, 12:57 PM	In my game I have ruled that Half-Orcs don't have a Charisma penalty. I always thought they should be a little on the slow side, but they can still be quite convincing ;)
Otto the Bugbear 02-17-07, 09:22 PM	After reading this thread, I think I'll be going with... Humanoid type (human and orc subtype) +2 racial bonus to strength and –2 Intelligence (half-orcs are very strong, but not very bright) Base movement 30 ft. Darkvision 60 ft. +2 racial bonus on survival +1 skill point per level, as a human +2 racial bonus to saves against poison and disease Some good arguments for changing this race. Just for completeness, I'd change the half-elf too, since they also need a bit of help... Humanoid type (human and elf subtype) Base movement 30 ft. Low-light vision +2 racial bonus on diplomacy, bluff, and gather information +1 skill point per level, as a human +2 racial bonus to saves against enchantment spells and effects Bonus Feat: Skill Synergy (choose any two skills except diplomacy, gather information or bluff)
CaoSlayer 02-21-07, 04:59 PM	I have been thinking about creating "half -2" racial features that gives all or most the disadvantages of having a -2 in one of the stats but not screw class features. In case of orcs, in place of a -2 to inteligence could be a race feature named "slow learner" that granted that the half-orcs have a hard time learning things cause their orc blood, so they get -4 skill points at level 1 and -1 sp the other levels up to a minimum of 1 sp/level. The toned down -2 charisma would be just a -1 penalty to all skill checks related to charisma. So a half-orc could be like printed with a -1 to all charisma checks and -1 sp/level but +2 str without stat penalty so it can become a sorcerer, bard or wizard. This is an interesting thing for half-breeds where one parent have a bonus or penalty to a stat and the other not. Con half stat would be a -1 hp per level and concentration. Str half-stat would be a -1 to hit or a -1 to damage and str checks. Dex half-stat could be either a -1 iniciative and reflex saves or a -1 to AC and to hit with ranged/finesse weapons. Wis half-stat would be a -1 to all wis checks and will save. For a high stat with a normal stat, just change the -1 to a +1... So this way an half elf could gain a +1 to hit with ranged weapons and a +1 to AC but lose 1hp per level.