Hammering Proud Nails. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hammering Proud Nails. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TarlSS
07-29-06, 04:37 PM I have problems with Ressurect, save or die, teleport, and Polymorph magic and CODZILLA. They balance kind of, but essentially create a sort of balance that seems a bit alien in general.

Here are my changes.
House Rules:Spell Change Proposal (http://dndalliances.blogspot.com/2006/07/house-rules-proposals-on-spell-changes.html)

They specifically target those things. Wizards and Clerics are still plenty powerful when restricted from certain options.
Phoenix Knight
07-29-06, 05:03 PM I generally remove ressurection spells, and I remove teleportation in my low-magic setting.

I'm iffy about agreeing with some other changes. I understand where you are coming from with save or die effects (one solution is fate points), but I'd say you're generally better off outright banning something than gimping it. That's usually more likely to upset players than simply saying no one (me or you) will be doing this now.

Of course, many non-save-or-die effects have a similar effect. Anything that leaves the subject helpless can equate to the same thing if thrown around enough that there are too few PCs to prevent the enemies from killing those that are helpless.
Bulletproof_Condom
07-29-06, 11:42 PM I have problems with Ressurect, save or die, teleport, and Polymorph magic and CODZILLA. They balance kind of, but essentially create a sort of balance that seems a bit alien in general.
These are all high-level issues. It sounds like you just don't like high-level play.

Raise dead and teleport aren't available until 9th-level at the earliest. I think if you just play 8th-level and below, or even 5th-level and below, you'll be much happier with your game.
TarlSS
07-30-06, 04:30 AM Telling me what I do and do not like is a mistake.
I'm quite aware they're high level issues. I've run several campaigns level 10-20. I do like high level play. It has to alot offer. You understand that the scry/fry/save or die triangle runs rampant throughout high level D&D. This isn't, and shouldn't be the only way to play it. Experienced players and DMs run constant truces to make sure the game doesn't devolve into such when so clearly it must- getting rid of causation altogether makes it easier on everyone.

Honestly- Since when has teleportation really enchanced the game except for serving as a shortcut for travel time? When has 'save or die' really been all that much fun? When has the promise of an easy ressurection enchanced the quality of an adventure?
I know that in my time playing, that I frequently used these methods to undermine a DM I frankly did not like very much. They turn logic on it's head and force people to think more in terms of rules than what's appropriate to..anything really.
A very annoying DM I used to play under got incredibly engrossed into this sort of logic, and his games turned into boring psycheout-fests which involved how to use magic to twist the situation on it's head or lose. We were EXPECTED to live and breathe the scry and fry triangle.

As to save or die effects, I believe that for the purpose of the campaign setting, a certain flavor is served if evil PCs are allowed to kill folks outright, and good ones are not. As you mentioned, there are certainly many nasty and more effective ways to annihilate foes without directly killing them.

As to 'Kind-of-Save-or-Die" spells, the motive is that those spells have immediate binary counters. I understand that I cannot get rid of all the binary counters, but it would be unfair to have save-or-die be particularly prevelant when ressurect is not. Ideally both types of effects should be equally common.
DIESCUMDIE
07-31-06, 03:05 AM I agree. I have a slightly different solution but basically I agree.
Bulletproof_Condom
07-31-06, 03:28 AM Telling me what I do and do not like is a mistake.
Hey, path of least resistance, dude. Why remake the entire game when you can just stay below 6th level and be satisfied?
jasper
07-31-06, 08:42 AM When has 'save or die' really been all that much fun? Always especially when the monster/npc dies and I don’t. Other wise icky pppooo

When has the promise of an easy ressurection enchanced the quality of an adventure? And when has having no resurrection helped the module.

Truce the only truce my monster vs the pc have if the players force me to accept a ruling in their favor. I then wait and apply the rule in my monsters favor. Aka if x good for the party it is good for the monster
TarlSS
07-31-06, 10:14 AM Hey, path of least resistance, dude. Why remake the entire game when you can just stay below 6th level and be satisfied?

Because the task of typing up a few paragraphs is not particularly onerous and resolves my problems to a more satisfactory degree? You might note this is the Houserules forum- rewriting the rules is matter of course.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TarlSS 07-29-06, 04:37 PM	I have problems with Ressurect, save or die, teleport, and Polymorph magic and CODZILLA. They balance kind of, but essentially create a sort of balance that seems a bit alien in general. Here are my changes. House Rules:Spell Change Proposal (http://dndalliances.blogspot.com/2006/07/house-rules-proposals-on-spell-changes.html) They specifically target those things. Wizards and Clerics are still plenty powerful when restricted from certain options.
Phoenix Knight 07-29-06, 05:03 PM	I generally remove ressurection spells, and I remove teleportation in my low-magic setting. I'm iffy about agreeing with some other changes. I understand where you are coming from with save or die effects (one solution is fate points), but I'd say you're generally better off outright banning something than gimping it. That's usually more likely to upset players than simply saying no one (me or you) will be doing this now. Of course, many non-save-or-die effects have a similar effect. Anything that leaves the subject helpless can equate to the same thing if thrown around enough that there are too few PCs to prevent the enemies from killing those that are helpless.
Bulletproof_Condom 07-29-06, 11:42 PM	I have problems with Ressurect, save or die, teleport, and Polymorph magic and CODZILLA. They balance kind of, but essentially create a sort of balance that seems a bit alien in general. These are all high-level issues. It sounds like you just don't like high-level play. Raise dead and teleport aren't available until 9th-level at the earliest. I think if you just play 8th-level and below, or even 5th-level and below, you'll be much happier with your game.
TarlSS 07-30-06, 04:30 AM	Telling me what I do and do not like is a mistake. I'm quite aware they're high level issues. I've run several campaigns level 10-20. I do like high level play. It has to alot offer. You understand that the scry/fry/save or die triangle runs rampant throughout high level D&D. This isn't, and shouldn't be the only way to play it. Experienced players and DMs run constant truces to make sure the game doesn't devolve into such when so clearly it must- getting rid of causation altogether makes it easier on everyone. Honestly- Since when has teleportation really enchanced the game except for serving as a shortcut for travel time? When has 'save or die' really been all that much fun? When has the promise of an easy ressurection enchanced the quality of an adventure? I know that in my time playing, that I frequently used these methods to undermine a DM I frankly did not like very much. They turn logic on it's head and force people to think more in terms of rules than what's appropriate to..anything really. A very annoying DM I used to play under got incredibly engrossed into this sort of logic, and his games turned into boring psycheout-fests which involved how to use magic to twist the situation on it's head or lose. We were EXPECTED to live and breathe the scry and fry triangle. As to save or die effects, I believe that for the purpose of the campaign setting, a certain flavor is served if evil PCs are allowed to kill folks outright, and good ones are not. As you mentioned, there are certainly many nasty and more effective ways to annihilate foes without directly killing them. As to 'Kind-of-Save-or-Die" spells, the motive is that those spells have immediate binary counters. I understand that I cannot get rid of all the binary counters, but it would be unfair to have save-or-die be particularly prevelant when ressurect is not. Ideally both types of effects should be equally common.
DIESCUMDIE 07-31-06, 03:05 AM	I agree. I have a slightly different solution but basically I agree.
Bulletproof_Condom 07-31-06, 03:28 AM	Telling me what I do and do not like is a mistake. Hey, path of least resistance, dude. Why remake the entire game when you can just stay below 6th level and be satisfied?
jasper 07-31-06, 08:42 AM	When has 'save or die' really been all that much fun? Always especially when the monster/npc dies and I don’t. Other wise icky pppooo When has the promise of an easy ressurection enchanced the quality of an adventure? And when has having no resurrection helped the module. Truce the only truce my monster vs the pc have if the players force me to accept a ruling in their favor. I then wait and apply the rule in my monsters favor. Aka if x good for the party it is good for the monster
TarlSS 07-31-06, 10:14 AM	Hey, path of least resistance, dude. Why remake the entire game when you can just stay below 6th level and be satisfied? Because the task of typing up a few paragraphs is not particularly onerous and resolves my problems to a more satisfactory degree? You might note this is the Houserules forum- rewriting the rules is matter of course.