Help with Gestalt Concept / Gestalt Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help with Gestalt Concept / Gestalt Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ampdmg
03-09-06, 11:45 PM I am pretty new to the board and also to DnD/D20. My friend is going to dm a campaign and i am trying to convince him to either make it gestalt or maybe allow me to gestalt with penalties. Any tips on convincing him? He has experience as a player and as a dm, but not with 3.5 (he played 3.0 and previous).

On the character concept, I want to make a rogue 20 // spellthief 20, or maybe a rogue 15/thief-acrobat 5 // spellthief 20. Basically an anti-mage master thief. I myself am purposely limiting the character with feat selection and PrC/class combos for RP reasons. No fighter rogues etc. Deciding on Spring attack combo, with quick draw, combat expertise for AC, weapon finesse.

Weapons are restricted for me as well. He has a RP quirk about using his trusted dagger. Also curious if it is overpowering for a lvl 1 to have an adamintine/mithril dagger (Masterwork dagger no enchantments yet). He will NOT sell it for other things, RP reasons. Will not use other weapons except for shortbow and sap. a 1d4 dagger that helps with attack by a +1 and anti-dr for lycanthropes (not really even fighting lycanthropes yet) too powerful at lvl 1 with everyone having standard gp? My character got it from his mentor who perished a while back, and has useful memories of him.

Ok, review of questions:
1: anyway i can convince my DM of allowing me to be gestalt, or having the entire campaign gestalt?

2: is is possible/allowable to have a Rogue // spell-thief or Rogue/thief-acrobat // spellthief combo?

3: is a specially designed masterwork dagger (made of part adamatine and part mythril in the blade) without enchantments too powerful for a lvl 1 rogue who has it and will use it for RP reasons? (worth is 3,002 for the adamatine probably + 302 for mythril = 3,304 dagger cost)

Any help would be appreciated. Also, please no super CO for this character, i am designing him for RP reasons, instead of having a strong twf backstabber, or a super AC cleric. If you need my exact build, just post a message.

Thank you very much
JulesCARV
03-10-06, 12:27 AM As for whether you can get your DM to let you play a gestalt character, that's up to him.

As for the Rogue 15/Thief-Acrobat 5//Spellthief 20 idea, I don't think that's quite allowed. Gestalt characters who go into prestige classes progress in the prestige class as a single class.

You would, however, be able to take 15 levels of gestalt rogue//spellthief, and then take the other 5 levels in thief-acrobat, if you like the thief-acrobat flavor.

As for the dagger -- if you're starting at 3rd level or higher and are good, I'd look into getting an Ancestral Relic. Barring that, a mithral dagger, without the adamantine component, isn't too expensive.
ampdmg
03-10-06, 01:11 AM For question 2: I wanted to know if rogue // spellthief is valid, or rogue/thief acrobat // spellthief is valid. Rogue and spellthief are NOT PrCs, Rogue is in PHB and spellthief is a standard class in Complete Adventurers. the thief-acrobat is the PrC. I am not 100% sure about your answer JulesCARV. Reading through various forums (which most are house rules and such, i dont exactly know what UA says) i would assume that each half can be standard, or become a PrC, but when one side does take a PrC, then the other side cannot. So i can go:

lvl 1: rogue 1 // Spell Thief (ST) 1
lvl 2: rogue 2 // st 1
lvl 3: rogue 3 // st 1
lvl 4: rogue 4 // st 1
lvl 5: rogue 5 // st 1
lvl 6: Thief-Acrobat 1 // st 6
etc
lvl 11: rogue 6 / thief acrobat 5 // st 11
etc

That is how i interpretted it. Is this correct? again, i am not 100% sure, this is just what i got from various posts and such.

question 3: i am starting at lvl 1. The reason i have a specially made adamatine/mythril dagger is because of RP, please read the first post. It is worth about 3.3k gp. Very expensive for a lvl 1 character. The benefits is what i am questioning. While it is very expensive for lvl1, my character will NOT sell it for better equipment. He will be using it against EVERYTHING he wants to kill. the weapon is part mythril, part adamatine masterwork. so it does 1d4 dmg, has a +1 to hit, breaks DR for lycanthropes (mythril is almost pure silver vs shapechangers, but I will NOT be fighting lyanthropes anyways) it is partially stronger as a weapon (more weapon hp and higher hardness, but slightly lighter than regular daggers in part of the mythril).

Would you as a DM allow this adamatine/mythril masterwork for a character lvl 1 if he will not sell it, and will hunt it down if someone trys to steal it away from him? He will not really use better weapons, but later on will try and enchant it permanently with magical bonuses.

As a side note i wanted to include:
when gestalting the rogue // spellthief, i will take the Sneak attack progression of the rogue, but will not be allowed to use spellthief's abilities past the spellthief's sneak attack progression. example:

my lvl 3 rogue//st sneak attacks an arcane caster. i cause 2d6 sneak dmg. i use up only 1d6 to steal a lvl 1 spell from said caster.

my lvl 6 rogue//st sneak attacks another arcane caster. my rogue's sneak dice is up to 3d6 sneak dice, but my st sneak dice is at 2d6. i hit the caster, and use 1d6 as sneak attack dmg, and 2d6 as st abilities. 1d6 st goes to stealing a spell, the other 1d6 goes to absorbing spell resistance. (if i can do that at that point ^_^ haha i dont know)

later on when i am lvl 18 or 20 or whatever, while my rogue has 10d6 sneak dice, my spellthief has only 5d6 sneak dice. i can only use up to 5d6 for my st abilities, the other half goes through as damage.

While i can understand gestalting a character is to make a character more versatile, example: barbarian bard or cleric fighter, my characer is a rogue but with a better will save (+), a new CHA requirement (-), same HD, same BAB, bascially same Weapon and armor proficiencies, skill point spliting [have to split my skill points into caster skills and rogue skills] (-), up to lvl 4 spells (+), some magic stealing abilities (++). My character concept is a rogue with anti mage abilties or a spellthief with more roguish abilities. ^_^
Morwen
03-10-06, 01:59 AM Gestalt characters who go into prestige classes progress in the prestige class as a single class.

You would, however, be able to take 15 levels of gestalt rogue//spellthief, and then take the other 5 levels in thief-acrobat, if you like the thief-acrobat flavor.

That's not correct. The only restriction on PrCs concerning gestalt characters are the following:
- Can't advance in two PrCs simultaneously.
- Can't take a PrC that is already a combination of two classes, such as Mystic Theurge.

When you take a PrC level on one side of the gestalt combination, you still get to take a regular class level on the other side.
Millennium
03-10-06, 07:01 AM I wouldn't say that an otherwise-ordinary mythril or adamantine dagger at Level 1 is necessarily overpowered. Level-1 characters aren't going to be facing creatures with DR/adamantine, and there are no creatures with DR/mythril, so there's no significant advantage to it mechanically. There would be an advantage in terms of wealth, but since you don't intend to sell the dagger this isn't really an issue.

That said, such weapons are very expensive. You might want to go into your character background a bit to explain how exactly you got it in the first place. Alternatively, you might work with the DM to engineer a situation where you don't start with the dagger, but can find it early in your career, along with whatever situation comes up that causes you to become so attached to it.
ampdmg
03-16-06, 02:49 AM Thanks for the info. any other DMs would allow the dagger to be played lvl1? I liked your idea about maybe finding it early on, and I will talk to my DM about it. We have not started character creation yet.
starfire311
03-16-06, 01:41 PM Thanks for the info. any other DMs would allow the dagger to be played lvl1? I liked your idea about maybe finding it early on, and I will talk to my DM about it. We have not started character creation yet.

I would probably allow the dagger, with the understanding that this sort of generousity is not to be abused. Especially if you had a good background reason for having it. I may force you to balance it over time, by perhaps owing a debt to someone that is equal to the gp value of the dagger. For instance, you had been raised in the past by a cleric and you promised to pay him back, you owe him exactly 3304 GP, out of the 4000 you originally owed him, you are slowly paying him back.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ampdmg 03-09-06, 11:45 PM	I am pretty new to the board and also to DnD/D20. My friend is going to dm a campaign and i am trying to convince him to either make it gestalt or maybe allow me to gestalt with penalties. Any tips on convincing him? He has experience as a player and as a dm, but not with 3.5 (he played 3.0 and previous). On the character concept, I want to make a rogue 20 // spellthief 20, or maybe a rogue 15/thief-acrobat 5 // spellthief 20. Basically an anti-mage master thief. I myself am purposely limiting the character with feat selection and PrC/class combos for RP reasons. No fighter rogues etc. Deciding on Spring attack combo, with quick draw, combat expertise for AC, weapon finesse. Weapons are restricted for me as well. He has a RP quirk about using his trusted dagger. Also curious if it is overpowering for a lvl 1 to have an adamintine/mithril dagger (Masterwork dagger no enchantments yet). He will NOT sell it for other things, RP reasons. Will not use other weapons except for shortbow and sap. a 1d4 dagger that helps with attack by a +1 and anti-dr for lycanthropes (not really even fighting lycanthropes yet) too powerful at lvl 1 with everyone having standard gp? My character got it from his mentor who perished a while back, and has useful memories of him. Ok, review of questions: 1: anyway i can convince my DM of allowing me to be gestalt, or having the entire campaign gestalt? 2: is is possible/allowable to have a Rogue // spell-thief or Rogue/thief-acrobat // spellthief combo? 3: is a specially designed masterwork dagger (made of part adamatine and part mythril in the blade) without enchantments too powerful for a lvl 1 rogue who has it and will use it for RP reasons? (worth is 3,002 for the adamatine probably + 302 for mythril = 3,304 dagger cost) Any help would be appreciated. Also, please no super CO for this character, i am designing him for RP reasons, instead of having a strong twf backstabber, or a super AC cleric. If you need my exact build, just post a message. Thank you very much
JulesCARV 03-10-06, 12:27 AM	As for whether you can get your DM to let you play a gestalt character, that's up to him. As for the Rogue 15/Thief-Acrobat 5//Spellthief 20 idea, I don't think that's quite allowed. Gestalt characters who go into prestige classes progress in the prestige class as a single class. You would, however, be able to take 15 levels of gestalt rogue//spellthief, and then take the other 5 levels in thief-acrobat, if you like the thief-acrobat flavor. As for the dagger -- if you're starting at 3rd level or higher and are good, I'd look into getting an Ancestral Relic. Barring that, a mithral dagger, without the adamantine component, isn't too expensive.
ampdmg 03-10-06, 01:11 AM	For question 2: I wanted to know if rogue // spellthief is valid, or rogue/thief acrobat // spellthief is valid. Rogue and spellthief are NOT PrCs, Rogue is in PHB and spellthief is a standard class in Complete Adventurers. the thief-acrobat is the PrC. I am not 100% sure about your answer JulesCARV. Reading through various forums (which most are house rules and such, i dont exactly know what UA says) i would assume that each half can be standard, or become a PrC, but when one side does take a PrC, then the other side cannot. So i can go: lvl 1: rogue 1 // Spell Thief (ST) 1 lvl 2: rogue 2 // st 1 lvl 3: rogue 3 // st 1 lvl 4: rogue 4 // st 1 lvl 5: rogue 5 // st 1 lvl 6: Thief-Acrobat 1 // st 6 etc lvl 11: rogue 6 / thief acrobat 5 // st 11 etc That is how i interpretted it. Is this correct? again, i am not 100% sure, this is just what i got from various posts and such. question 3: i am starting at lvl 1. The reason i have a specially made adamatine/mythril dagger is because of RP, please read the first post. It is worth about 3.3k gp. Very expensive for a lvl 1 character. The benefits is what i am questioning. While it is very expensive for lvl1, my character will NOT sell it for better equipment. He will be using it against EVERYTHING he wants to kill. the weapon is part mythril, part adamatine masterwork. so it does 1d4 dmg, has a +1 to hit, breaks DR for lycanthropes (mythril is almost pure silver vs shapechangers, but I will NOT be fighting lyanthropes anyways) it is partially stronger as a weapon (more weapon hp and higher hardness, but slightly lighter than regular daggers in part of the mythril). Would you as a DM allow this adamatine/mythril masterwork for a character lvl 1 if he will not sell it, and will hunt it down if someone trys to steal it away from him? He will not really use better weapons, but later on will try and enchant it permanently with magical bonuses. As a side note i wanted to include: when gestalting the rogue // spellthief, i will take the Sneak attack progression of the rogue, but will not be allowed to use spellthief's abilities past the spellthief's sneak attack progression. example: my lvl 3 rogue//st sneak attacks an arcane caster. i cause 2d6 sneak dmg. i use up only 1d6 to steal a lvl 1 spell from said caster. my lvl 6 rogue//st sneak attacks another arcane caster. my rogue's sneak dice is up to 3d6 sneak dice, but my st sneak dice is at 2d6. i hit the caster, and use 1d6 as sneak attack dmg, and 2d6 as st abilities. 1d6 st goes to stealing a spell, the other 1d6 goes to absorbing spell resistance. (if i can do that at that point ^_^ haha i dont know) later on when i am lvl 18 or 20 or whatever, while my rogue has 10d6 sneak dice, my spellthief has only 5d6 sneak dice. i can only use up to 5d6 for my st abilities, the other half goes through as damage. While i can understand gestalting a character is to make a character more versatile, example: barbarian bard or cleric fighter, my characer is a rogue but with a better will save (+), a new CHA requirement (-), same HD, same BAB, bascially same Weapon and armor proficiencies, skill point spliting [have to split my skill points into caster skills and rogue skills] (-), up to lvl 4 spells (+), some magic stealing abilities (++). My character concept is a rogue with anti mage abilties or a spellthief with more roguish abilities. ^_^
Morwen 03-10-06, 01:59 AM	Gestalt characters who go into prestige classes progress in the prestige class as a single class. You would, however, be able to take 15 levels of gestalt rogue//spellthief, and then take the other 5 levels in thief-acrobat, if you like the thief-acrobat flavor. That's not correct. The only restriction on PrCs concerning gestalt characters are the following: - Can't advance in two PrCs simultaneously. - Can't take a PrC that is already a combination of two classes, such as Mystic Theurge. When you take a PrC level on one side of the gestalt combination, you still get to take a regular class level on the other side.
Millennium 03-10-06, 07:01 AM	I wouldn't say that an otherwise-ordinary mythril or adamantine dagger at Level 1 is necessarily overpowered. Level-1 characters aren't going to be facing creatures with DR/adamantine, and there are no creatures with DR/mythril, so there's no significant advantage to it mechanically. There would be an advantage in terms of wealth, but since you don't intend to sell the dagger this isn't really an issue. That said, such weapons are very expensive. You might want to go into your character background a bit to explain how exactly you got it in the first place. Alternatively, you might work with the DM to engineer a situation where you don't start with the dagger, but can find it early in your career, along with whatever situation comes up that causes you to become so attached to it.
ampdmg 03-16-06, 02:49 AM	Thanks for the info. any other DMs would allow the dagger to be played lvl1? I liked your idea about maybe finding it early on, and I will talk to my DM about it. We have not started character creation yet.
starfire311 03-16-06, 01:41 PM	Thanks for the info. any other DMs would allow the dagger to be played lvl1? I liked your idea about maybe finding it early on, and I will talk to my DM about it. We have not started character creation yet. I would probably allow the dagger, with the understanding that this sort of generousity is not to be abused. Especially if you had a good background reason for having it. I may force you to balance it over time, by perhaps owing a debt to someone that is equal to the gp value of the dagger. For instance, you had been raised in the past by a cleric and you promised to pay him back, you owe him exactly 3304 GP, out of the 4000 you originally owed him, you are slowly paying him back.