Heroic Abilities [Archive] - Wizards Community

Heroic Abilities [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Raelifin
09-16-05, 02:53 PM I am trying a new theme for my newest campaign: Epic. I don't mean epic as in epic level, I mean epic as in epic sagas and legendary adventures. I talking about making the PCs into characters like Conan, Hercules, Beowulf, Achilles, King Arthur (or any of his knights), and many others. The obvious way to do this would be to run epic (or near epic) level adventures. After all, that is what the epic level handbook was made for, right? The problem with this is that epic level PCs are (in my opinion) unbalanced (I didn't say broken) and a bit complex. Instead, I'd like to allow PCs to choose Heroic Abilities as they become higher level. These abilities would be similar to incredibly powerful feats, and would give the character a major boost to a certain area. My problem is how to balance these out in terms of both monster CR and balance. If I were to make an ability of +8 str, and I bumped the EL of all encounters the PCs faced, combat would be decided by initiative. The PCs would have less hp then normal so they would die easier but they would also be able to kill most enemies incredibly easily. Does anyone have any ideas on how to make this mechanic work?
Crash01234567890
09-16-05, 03:37 PM Get a good understanding of what the heroes are capable of and throw what you want at them. Give ad hoc rewards. Have fun. Don't tie yourself down to a system. I've done similar before and wound up with three level fives taking out a camp of about five hundred orcs and goblins.

Now that's the stuff legends are made of.
Lina_Inverse
09-16-05, 05:05 PM >___>
<___<

go over to the epic board,and goto exalted d20. Give all the pcs the solar template.
Raelifin
09-16-05, 05:37 PM I want the PCs to be above-average power, not gods! Cool template though.

After some thought I have come up with four options:
1. +1 LA Template. This template would be applied to all characters.
2. No change. Simple change the flavor so that characters seem more powerful.
3. Action Point Variant. Action points allow for a sort of cinematic feel in campaigns like Eberron. Using a variant, you could make normal actions extraordinary.
4. 1 and 3.
Lina_Inverse
09-16-05, 06:20 PM I want the PCs to be above-average power, not gods! Cool template though.

After some thought I have come up with four options:
1. +1 LA Template. This template would be applied to all characters.
2. No change. Simple change the flavor so that characters seem more powerful.
3. Action Point Variant. Action points allow for a sort of cinematic feel in campaigns like Eberron. Using a variant, you could make normal actions extraordinary.
4. 1 and 3.

Try the dragonblooded template. Much much lower on the scale. And gives cool elemental flavor.
Raelifin
09-16-05, 06:32 PM Where is it?
Lina_Inverse
09-16-05, 06:49 PM Where is it?

a few posts down from solars.
Aurotuli
09-16-05, 09:48 PM Are templates really needed? I mean, think about it for a moment.

What were the major quests taken on by some of the Knights of the Round Table? Facing an ogre one-on-one. Dealing with a dragon the size of their horse (which typically meant a rather young one, by SRD d20 standards) - maybe with the help of another knight. The typical NPC - as presumed by the SRD - can be readily felled by a kobold or goblin. The typical NPC village can be felled by a large band of either.

"Epic", in the sense of the legends of the knights of the round table and many other legends and even some myths - are typically PC classes of perhaps 3 - 7th level facing (often, but not always) one-on-one encounters against creatures whose CR is just a level or two lower. By definition, an ogre requires four PC class characters of second or third level. This is a major problem for a small (or even large) village community, as most are first level NPC classes. They could probably deal with it on their own, but it would take the planning and work of the entire settlement, and it would likely result in the loss of life of several of them - lives needed for the normal planting, harvesting, etc. A fourth or fifth level fighter (knight), on the other hand, is greatly challenged by this encounter, but he may have a hope of overcoming it without dying in the process, and by taking up the challenge he removes the danger the community itself would face if it dealt with the challenge on its own - assuming it had the tenacity, the will, and the means of doing so.

Only once you start introducing magical creatures (such as chimeras, manticores, young adult dragons, lesser demons, etc) do you shift into needing mythical heroes instead of mere legendary ones. Mythical heros often have magical items and special abilities, etc that lower level ones do not. They tend to be around levels 7 - 13, and they are typically well known for major adventures they have been on in the past. Consider, for instance, the story of how the medusa was defeated. A single adventurer faced a CR 7 creature with a magic sword and a reflective shield (and a helm of invisibility, I think, although that may be my recollection from the Clash of the Titans speaking). Likely the adventurer was around level 8 - 10.

That is part of the problem, really. Most legends and myths speak of one adventurer facing these beasts. A CR 7 creature is a significantly more potent challenge when only a single adventurer gets to deal with it. A group is rarely found in mythology. There is Gilgamesh with his single companion, but Enkidu is only around for part of his adventurers. There is Odessey, but again many of his adventurers are alone or nearly so. Most tales of the Knights of the Round Table dealt either with the exploits of a single knight or the collection of knights as a whole (in mass battles). Jason and the Argonaughts is the only mythical group of adventurers that comes to mind, and even then many adventurers involved only one or two of the group at a time - or the ship as a single entity evading / dealing with an encounter.

I suggest, if trying to create the legends of old (so to speak) with a group, use a multiplication factor. There is not one ogre causing trouble, but instead three. The young dragon faced is actually one of several in a nearby nest - the first to hatch. As soon as the first is overcome they find evidence that in a few days or hours a few more might be on their way into the village's area. They must seek out the nest and destroy it. I suggest using a dragon type that rarely looks after its nest (lay and forget, like some reptiles or amphibeans). Or perhaps the mother was slain by another adventurer a few months back, and that adventurer is now in another kingdom, dealing with a worse threat elsewhere (or perhaps died of mortal wounds after the draconic encounter).

The example in an above post of an encampment of several hundred goblins is a good example. Far more than most NPCs could hope to deal with, but a band of four fifth to tenth level adventurers might yet deal with it - especially if they have the gear typical of their level (magic items, etc). A few fireballs or lightning strikes could take out a few score by themselves, actually, at that level - assuming all are just Warrior 1 (as the default in the MM usually are). A band of 'elite' goblins - having the elite array and 2 or 3 levels of War could also prove a major challenge.

Of course, you will start having problems once the group is in the mid-high levels (11-15), as you start having to use more complex situations, more dangerous creatures (Vrocks, adult dragons, etc) - the type that could likely lay waste to a small town with little effort. Keeping the same feel becomes ever more difficult as the level rises, really. Most NPCs simply do not have even the most basics means of hope of dealing with such menaces - even as a collective well organized group.

By those levels the group is not so much mythical as objects of near hero-worship. Like heracles, it is likely tales will spread that perhaps the members of the group are more than mere mortal (which was actually true, in the case of heracles). By 20th level the situation is even worse. The menaces they fight are - individually - powerful enough to take on entire small kingdoms of NPCs - and have a chance of winning. An Old Red Dragon, a Balor, a Pit Fiend - these are creatures that likely have their own centuries old mythologies, whose names are rarely spoken - and then only in whispers. Yet the adventurers take them on with as much ease as a vetran Knight (2-4 level fighter) takes on an Ogre.

The whole 'legendary / mythic' feel just sort of breaks down at that point, really. The dangers they face are simply too spectactular in the eyes of the typical NPCs - whether commoners, merchants, knights, aristocrats, or even the uncommon PC classed NPC. A setting that has 20th level N/PCs and does not have hero-worship cults focused upon them (albeit perhaps unknown even to the hero they worship) is not a realistic setting. At least not unless the setting is a "High Magic, Gods Occationally Walk the Earth" setting, such as Faerun.
Raelifin
09-16-05, 10:29 PM Thank you very much. Indeed, much of maintaining a feel of legend is mainly the job of good storytelling and proper preparation. However, I am trying to accomplish the feel almost as if the game is a mere re-telling of an ancient tale that has already been exaggerated. Also, I think that the key to high-level challenges is to make them difficult and prolonged but also have a greater reward than normal.

After thinking on this problem for a while, I have decided that the way to enhance the abilities of a character without breaking the game is to cause an ability to turn material wealth into a stat boost of appropriate level. This would need to be thought out when deciding the particulars. However, with a combination of a high point build, higher level average, "natural" items and good storytelling, a legend is just around the corner.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raelifin 09-16-05, 02:53 PM	I am trying a new theme for my newest campaign: Epic. I don't mean epic as in epic level, I mean epic as in epic sagas and legendary adventures. I talking about making the PCs into characters like Conan, Hercules, Beowulf, Achilles, King Arthur (or any of his knights), and many others. The obvious way to do this would be to run epic (or near epic) level adventures. After all, that is what the epic level handbook was made for, right? The problem with this is that epic level PCs are (in my opinion) unbalanced (I didn't say broken) and a bit complex. Instead, I'd like to allow PCs to choose Heroic Abilities as they become higher level. These abilities would be similar to incredibly powerful feats, and would give the character a major boost to a certain area. My problem is how to balance these out in terms of both monster CR and balance. If I were to make an ability of +8 str, and I bumped the EL of all encounters the PCs faced, combat would be decided by initiative. The PCs would have less hp then normal so they would die easier but they would also be able to kill most enemies incredibly easily. Does anyone have any ideas on how to make this mechanic work?
Crash01234567890 09-16-05, 03:37 PM	Get a good understanding of what the heroes are capable of and throw what you want at them. Give ad hoc rewards. Have fun. Don't tie yourself down to a system. I've done similar before and wound up with three level fives taking out a camp of about five hundred orcs and goblins. Now that's the stuff legends are made of.
Lina_Inverse 09-16-05, 05:05 PM	>___> <___< go over to the epic board,and goto exalted d20. Give all the pcs the solar template.
Raelifin 09-16-05, 05:37 PM	I want the PCs to be above-average power, not gods! Cool template though. After some thought I have come up with four options: 1. +1 LA Template. This template would be applied to all characters. 2. No change. Simple change the flavor so that characters seem more powerful. 3. Action Point Variant. Action points allow for a sort of cinematic feel in campaigns like Eberron. Using a variant, you could make normal actions extraordinary. 4. 1 and 3.
Lina_Inverse 09-16-05, 06:20 PM	I want the PCs to be above-average power, not gods! Cool template though. After some thought I have come up with four options: 1. +1 LA Template. This template would be applied to all characters. 2. No change. Simple change the flavor so that characters seem more powerful. 3. Action Point Variant. Action points allow for a sort of cinematic feel in campaigns like Eberron. Using a variant, you could make normal actions extraordinary. 4. 1 and 3. Try the dragonblooded template. Much much lower on the scale. And gives cool elemental flavor.
Raelifin 09-16-05, 06:32 PM	Where is it?
Lina_Inverse 09-16-05, 06:49 PM	Where is it? a few posts down from solars.
Aurotuli 09-16-05, 09:48 PM	Are templates really needed? I mean, think about it for a moment. What were the major quests taken on by some of the Knights of the Round Table? Facing an ogre one-on-one. Dealing with a dragon the size of their horse (which typically meant a rather young one, by SRD d20 standards) - maybe with the help of another knight. The typical NPC - as presumed by the SRD - can be readily felled by a kobold or goblin. The typical NPC village can be felled by a large band of either. "Epic", in the sense of the legends of the knights of the round table and many other legends and even some myths - are typically PC classes of perhaps 3 - 7th level facing (often, but not always) one-on-one encounters against creatures whose CR is just a level or two lower. By definition, an ogre requires four PC class characters of second or third level. This is a major problem for a small (or even large) village community, as most are first level NPC classes. They could probably deal with it on their own, but it would take the planning and work of the entire settlement, and it would likely result in the loss of life of several of them - lives needed for the normal planting, harvesting, etc. A fourth or fifth level fighter (knight), on the other hand, is greatly challenged by this encounter, but he may have a hope of overcoming it without dying in the process, and by taking up the challenge he removes the danger the community itself would face if it dealt with the challenge on its own - assuming it had the tenacity, the will, and the means of doing so. Only once you start introducing magical creatures (such as chimeras, manticores, young adult dragons, lesser demons, etc) do you shift into needing mythical heroes instead of mere legendary ones. Mythical heros often have magical items and special abilities, etc that lower level ones do not. They tend to be around levels 7 - 13, and they are typically well known for major adventures they have been on in the past. Consider, for instance, the story of how the medusa was defeated. A single adventurer faced a CR 7 creature with a magic sword and a reflective shield (and a helm of invisibility, I think, although that may be my recollection from the Clash of the Titans speaking). Likely the adventurer was around level 8 - 10. That is part of the problem, really. Most legends and myths speak of one adventurer facing these beasts. A CR 7 creature is a significantly more potent challenge when only a single adventurer gets to deal with it. A group is rarely found in mythology. There is Gilgamesh with his single companion, but Enkidu is only around for part of his adventurers. There is Odessey, but again many of his adventurers are alone or nearly so. Most tales of the Knights of the Round Table dealt either with the exploits of a single knight or the collection of knights as a whole (in mass battles). Jason and the Argonaughts is the only mythical group of adventurers that comes to mind, and even then many adventurers involved only one or two of the group at a time - or the ship as a single entity evading / dealing with an encounter. I suggest, if trying to create the legends of old (so to speak) with a group, use a multiplication factor. There is not one ogre causing trouble, but instead three. The young dragon faced is actually one of several in a nearby nest - the first to hatch. As soon as the first is overcome they find evidence that in a few days or hours a few more might be on their way into the village's area. They must seek out the nest and destroy it. I suggest using a dragon type that rarely looks after its nest (lay and forget, like some reptiles or amphibeans). Or perhaps the mother was slain by another adventurer a few months back, and that adventurer is now in another kingdom, dealing with a worse threat elsewhere (or perhaps died of mortal wounds after the draconic encounter). The example in an above post of an encampment of several hundred goblins is a good example. Far more than most NPCs could hope to deal with, but a band of four fifth to tenth level adventurers might yet deal with it - especially if they have the gear typical of their level (magic items, etc). A few fireballs or lightning strikes could take out a few score by themselves, actually, at that level - assuming all are just Warrior 1 (as the default in the MM usually are). A band of 'elite' goblins - having the elite array and 2 or 3 levels of War could also prove a major challenge. Of course, you will start having problems once the group is in the mid-high levels (11-15), as you start having to use more complex situations, more dangerous creatures (Vrocks, adult dragons, etc) - the type that could likely lay waste to a small town with little effort. Keeping the same feel becomes ever more difficult as the level rises, really. Most NPCs simply do not have even the most basics means of hope of dealing with such menaces - even as a collective well organized group. By those levels the group is not so much mythical as objects of near hero-worship. Like heracles, it is likely tales will spread that perhaps the members of the group are more than mere mortal (which was actually true, in the case of heracles). By 20th level the situation is even worse. The menaces they fight are - individually - powerful enough to take on entire small kingdoms of NPCs - and have a chance of winning. An Old Red Dragon, a Balor, a Pit Fiend - these are creatures that likely have their own centuries old mythologies, whose names are rarely spoken - and then only in whispers. Yet the adventurers take them on with as much ease as a vetran Knight (2-4 level fighter) takes on an Ogre. The whole 'legendary / mythic' feel just sort of breaks down at that point, really. The dangers they face are simply too spectactular in the eyes of the typical NPCs - whether commoners, merchants, knights, aristocrats, or even the uncommon PC classed NPC. A setting that has 20th level N/PCs and does not have hero-worship cults focused upon them (albeit perhaps unknown even to the hero they worship) is not a realistic setting. At least not unless the setting is a "High Magic, Gods Occationally Walk the Earth" setting, such as Faerun.
Raelifin 09-16-05, 10:29 PM	Thank you very much. Indeed, much of maintaining a feel of legend is mainly the job of good storytelling and proper preparation. However, I am trying to accomplish the feel almost as if the game is a mere re-telling of an ancient tale that has already been exaggerated. Also, I think that the key to high-level challenges is to make them difficult and prolonged but also have a greater reward than normal. After thinking on this problem for a while, I have decided that the way to enhance the abilities of a character without breaking the game is to cause an ability to turn material wealth into a stat boost of appropriate level. This would need to be thought out when deciding the particulars. However, with a combination of a high point build, higher level average, "natural" items and good storytelling, a legend is just around the corner.