Hiding and attacking House Rule or Interpretation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hiding and attacking House Rule or Interpretation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
pres_man
08-28-05, 02:04 PM Due to the recent FAQ, there has been a large discussion of attacking and hiding. I am wondering what other DMs rule with respect to this concept. Here are my thoughts:

Hiding and range attacking (sniping)
Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.
These are the rules in the SRD. So I take that to mean that you can attack once per round and stay hidden. Well if this is true for ranged attacks, then I believe it should be true for melee attacks, so here is my rule for melee sniping = bushwhack.

Bushwhack: If you've already successfully hidden from your target close enough that they are in your threatened area, you can make one melee attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the attack.

Situations:
1. Person is hiding at beginning of round. They may bushwhack, then try to rehide with a -20 penalty on their rehide.

2. Person is not hidden at the beginning of the round. They may move and hide (without the -20 penalty), then bushwhack their target. Ending the round not hidden.

3. A person may be hidden or not, though there must be coverage/concealment up to the target. In this case the person may try to do a hidden charge. The person makes a hide check while charging with a -20 penalty. The person ends the round not hidden.

4. A person may be hidden or not, through there must be coverage/concealment along their path. In this case they may try to hide while running, they take a -20 on their check, end the round hidden (hopefully).

5. A person can try to sniping even if they are not hidden at the beginning. They must make a hide check, then their attack. They end the round not hidden.
Verelor
08-28-05, 03:02 PM It's a little more than impossible to hide from another person when you just stabbed them through with a big pointy weapon from right beside.
Xeviat-DM
08-28-05, 03:45 PM When hidden, attacking someone in melee range is possible. Imagine that the character you're attacking is blind; he's going to know you attacked him but isn't going to know where you are exactly. There's ways to find you, but since you have a 50% miss chance being totally concealed, you're going to be fine.

Remember, making a hide check has to be as part of a move action or a move action itself. So no "bushwack" full attacks, though you seemed to have noticed that yourself.

I think your interpretation of the rules works. Just make sure to become familiar with what people will do to try to find hidden characters, such as groaping into adjacent squares in hopes of finding them, or how listen checks work to pinpoint target (you have to beat the listen DC by 20 or more to pinpoint a target).
Kursk
08-28-05, 09:35 PM Due to the recent FAQ, there has been a large discussion of attacking and hiding. I am wondering what other DMs rule with respect to this concept. Here are my thoughts:

Hiding and range attacking (sniping)

These are the rules in the SRD. So I take that to mean that you can attack once per round and stay hidden. Well if this is true for ranged attacks, then I believe it should be true for melee attacks, so here is my rule for melee sniping = bushwhack.

Bushwhack: If you've already successfully hidden from your target close enough that they are in your threatened area, you can make one melee attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the attack.

Situations:
1. Person is hiding at beginning of round. They may bushwhack, then try to rehide with a -20 penalty on their rehide.

2. Person is not hidden at the beginning of the round. They may move and hide (without the -20 penalty), then bushwhack their target. Ending the round not hidden.

3. A person may be hidden or not, though there must be coverage/concealment up to the target. In this case the person may try to do a hidden charge. The person makes a hide check while charging with a -20 penalty. The person ends the round not hidden.

4. A person may be hidden or not, through there must be coverage/concealment along their path. In this case they may try to hide while running, they take a -20 on their check, end the round hidden (hopefully).

5. A person can try to sniping even if they are not hidden at the beginning. They must make a hide check, then their attack. They end the round not hidden.

:rofl:

I can see it now. You come home and I stand up from behind the couch, slash you with my long sword, duck back behind the couch and you are none the wiser!
pres_man
08-29-05, 01:05 AM Well, not exactly. I know I've been hit. You just did so fast, that I'm not sure if something flew by, or jumped out, or whatever. You did it just as I was looking the other way. It is really not that hard to imagine.
Xeviat-DM
08-29-05, 01:54 AM :rofl:

I can see it now. You come home and I stand up from behind the couch, slash you with my long sword, duck back behind the couch and you are none the wiser!

Imagine standing in a crowd of people, and you feel a slap. You quickly turn but only see other people there. Yes, you know you were slapped, but you can't tell where the slap came from. An expert hider, IE a rogue with a +10 modifier in hide, is generally going to be able to hide right in front of your face in the dark (concealment) an you won't see them. They just know how to move to keep you from noticing them (remember, they have to move at half speed to retain this bonus), watching your eyes and moving so you don't ever see them. If you beat the opposed skill check, then you saw them.

Now, it may be more fair to make melee "sniping" a feat. Improved Snipe could allow you to use the snipe ability with a melee weapon or a ranged weapon at less than 30 ft, and even give you a +4 bonus to your hide checks to snipe.
pres_man
08-29-05, 02:40 PM I appreciate people's critique of my rules, but I'd like to see some rules other DMs use for things like shadow dancers or rangers with their hide in plain sight abilities and attacking.

Do you let them attack from hiding and stay hidden? Can they make a full attack while staying hidden, do they take an extra penalties?

Do they have to rehide, if they attack?

How do you handle hiding and attacking? How do you interprete the -20 to your hide check while attacking, considering hiding is part of a move action and not an attack action?
Arcade
08-30-05, 12:53 PM I appreciate people's critique of my rules, but I'd like to see some rules other DMs use for things like shadow dancers or rangers with their hide in plain sight abilities and attacking.

Do you let them attack from hiding and stay hidden? Can they make a full attack while staying hidden, do they take an extra penalties?

Do they have to rehide, if they attack?

How do you handle hiding and attacking? How do you interprete the -20 to your hide check while attacking, considering hiding is part of a move action and not an attack action?

Hide in plain sight for me means they can attack, which make sthem become visible. then they can use a move-equivalent action to hide again at no penalty. Full attacks are not possible, though they can come out of hiding and do a full attack if they want.

So, yes, they do have to rehide if they attack.

The -20 to the hide check is because the person being attacked has a pretty good idea where he just got shot from (above, behind, etc.) and that the person hiding has some extra difficulty concealing themselves fully again before they are spotted.

If someone was using hide in plain sight and was sniping, they would make their hide check without a penalty. However, if they didn't make it by at least 20 more than required, it means that they were seen by their victim, but then merged with the shadows to get hidden again. The victim now knows where the attacker is, even if they can't see him exactly.

If the sniper made it by 20+ as a normal sniper, then they hide themselves before they are spotted, leaving the victim unable to locate their attacker and knowing only that they were shot from behind.
Xeviat-DM
08-30-05, 04:11 PM Hide in plain sight does not remove the penalty from such actions like sniping. It makes it so you are able to hide while being directly observed, as long as certain conditions are met (generally you still need to have cover or concealment). The Shadow Dancer and Assassin can use their hide in plain sight as long as there is a shadow within 5 feet of them, meaning they can disapear into it; it does not give them reduced penalties for certain actions.

Certain PrC abilities can reduce these penalties (I've made feats for my game since I like to be more feat intensive). Improved Snipe allows you to make your hide check to snipe as a swift action, so you could attack, rehide, and move in the same round, making it more difficult to be found. The Commando PrC from Heroes of Battle has an ability that reduces the penalties for hiding while moving by half.

After this thread, I've decided to go with the FAQs interpretation. The book says hiding while running, charging, or attacking suffers a -20 penalty. It also says that hiding is a move action or part of movement. So the shadow dancer who uses spring attack to jump from a shadow (-10 for full movement speed), then attack someone (-20 for attacking), then move back into the shadow (-10 for full movement speed) will have to make three separate hide checks; if successful, they will not be seen. Or, they could move from the shadow at half speed (no hide penalty) and attack (-20 for attacking) and remain there; I would rule that the character can determine what square the attack came from, but still doesn't see the attacker as long as the attacker is still able to hide.

Rangers make the best characters for this scenario, since their Chamo and HiPS abilities let them hide right infront of someone's face as long as they are in natural terrain.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pres_man 08-28-05, 02:04 PM	Due to the recent FAQ, there has been a large discussion of attacking and hiding. I am wondering what other DMs rule with respect to this concept. Here are my thoughts: Hiding and range attacking (sniping) Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot. These are the rules in the SRD. So I take that to mean that you can attack once per round and stay hidden. Well if this is true for ranged attacks, then I believe it should be true for melee attacks, so here is my rule for melee sniping = bushwhack. Bushwhack: If you've already successfully hidden from your target close enough that they are in your threatened area, you can make one melee attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the attack. Situations: 1. Person is hiding at beginning of round. They may bushwhack, then try to rehide with a -20 penalty on their rehide. 2. Person is not hidden at the beginning of the round. They may move and hide (without the -20 penalty), then bushwhack their target. Ending the round not hidden. 3. A person may be hidden or not, though there must be coverage/concealment up to the target. In this case the person may try to do a hidden charge. The person makes a hide check while charging with a -20 penalty. The person ends the round not hidden. 4. A person may be hidden or not, through there must be coverage/concealment along their path. In this case they may try to hide while running, they take a -20 on their check, end the round hidden (hopefully). 5. A person can try to sniping even if they are not hidden at the beginning. They must make a hide check, then their attack. They end the round not hidden.
Verelor 08-28-05, 03:02 PM	It's a little more than impossible to hide from another person when you just stabbed them through with a big pointy weapon from right beside.
Xeviat-DM 08-28-05, 03:45 PM	When hidden, attacking someone in melee range is possible. Imagine that the character you're attacking is blind; he's going to know you attacked him but isn't going to know where you are exactly. There's ways to find you, but since you have a 50% miss chance being totally concealed, you're going to be fine. Remember, making a hide check has to be as part of a move action or a move action itself. So no "bushwack" full attacks, though you seemed to have noticed that yourself. I think your interpretation of the rules works. Just make sure to become familiar with what people will do to try to find hidden characters, such as groaping into adjacent squares in hopes of finding them, or how listen checks work to pinpoint target (you have to beat the listen DC by 20 or more to pinpoint a target).
Kursk 08-28-05, 09:35 PM	Due to the recent FAQ, there has been a large discussion of attacking and hiding. I am wondering what other DMs rule with respect to this concept. Here are my thoughts: Hiding and range attacking (sniping) These are the rules in the SRD. So I take that to mean that you can attack once per round and stay hidden. Well if this is true for ranged attacks, then I believe it should be true for melee attacks, so here is my rule for melee sniping = bushwhack. Bushwhack: If you've already successfully hidden from your target close enough that they are in your threatened area, you can make one melee attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the attack. Situations: 1. Person is hiding at beginning of round. They may bushwhack, then try to rehide with a -20 penalty on their rehide. 2. Person is not hidden at the beginning of the round. They may move and hide (without the -20 penalty), then bushwhack their target. Ending the round not hidden. 3. A person may be hidden or not, though there must be coverage/concealment up to the target. In this case the person may try to do a hidden charge. The person makes a hide check while charging with a -20 penalty. The person ends the round not hidden. 4. A person may be hidden or not, through there must be coverage/concealment along their path. In this case they may try to hide while running, they take a -20 on their check, end the round hidden (hopefully). 5. A person can try to sniping even if they are not hidden at the beginning. They must make a hide check, then their attack. They end the round not hidden. :rofl: I can see it now. You come home and I stand up from behind the couch, slash you with my long sword, duck back behind the couch and you are none the wiser!
pres_man 08-29-05, 01:05 AM	Well, not exactly. I know I've been hit. You just did so fast, that I'm not sure if something flew by, or jumped out, or whatever. You did it just as I was looking the other way. It is really not that hard to imagine.
Xeviat-DM 08-29-05, 01:54 AM	:rofl: I can see it now. You come home and I stand up from behind the couch, slash you with my long sword, duck back behind the couch and you are none the wiser! Imagine standing in a crowd of people, and you feel a slap. You quickly turn but only see other people there. Yes, you know you were slapped, but you can't tell where the slap came from. An expert hider, IE a rogue with a +10 modifier in hide, is generally going to be able to hide right in front of your face in the dark (concealment) an you won't see them. They just know how to move to keep you from noticing them (remember, they have to move at half speed to retain this bonus), watching your eyes and moving so you don't ever see them. If you beat the opposed skill check, then you saw them. Now, it may be more fair to make melee "sniping" a feat. Improved Snipe could allow you to use the snipe ability with a melee weapon or a ranged weapon at less than 30 ft, and even give you a +4 bonus to your hide checks to snipe.
pres_man 08-29-05, 02:40 PM	I appreciate people's critique of my rules, but I'd like to see some rules other DMs use for things like shadow dancers or rangers with their hide in plain sight abilities and attacking. Do you let them attack from hiding and stay hidden? Can they make a full attack while staying hidden, do they take an extra penalties? Do they have to rehide, if they attack? How do you handle hiding and attacking? How do you interprete the -20 to your hide check while attacking, considering hiding is part of a move action and not an attack action?
Arcade 08-30-05, 12:53 PM	I appreciate people's critique of my rules, but I'd like to see some rules other DMs use for things like shadow dancers or rangers with their hide in plain sight abilities and attacking. Do you let them attack from hiding and stay hidden? Can they make a full attack while staying hidden, do they take an extra penalties? Do they have to rehide, if they attack? How do you handle hiding and attacking? How do you interprete the -20 to your hide check while attacking, considering hiding is part of a move action and not an attack action? Hide in plain sight for me means they can attack, which make sthem become visible. then they can use a move-equivalent action to hide again at no penalty. Full attacks are not possible, though they can come out of hiding and do a full attack if they want. So, yes, they do have to rehide if they attack. The -20 to the hide check is because the person being attacked has a pretty good idea where he just got shot from (above, behind, etc.) and that the person hiding has some extra difficulty concealing themselves fully again before they are spotted. If someone was using hide in plain sight and was sniping, they would make their hide check without a penalty. However, if they didn't make it by at least 20 more than required, it means that they were seen by their victim, but then merged with the shadows to get hidden again. The victim now knows where the attacker is, even if they can't see him exactly. If the sniper made it by 20+ as a normal sniper, then they hide themselves before they are spotted, leaving the victim unable to locate their attacker and knowing only that they were shot from behind.
Xeviat-DM 08-30-05, 04:11 PM	Hide in plain sight does not remove the penalty from such actions like sniping. It makes it so you are able to hide while being directly observed, as long as certain conditions are met (generally you still need to have cover or concealment). The Shadow Dancer and Assassin can use their hide in plain sight as long as there is a shadow within 5 feet of them, meaning they can disapear into it; it does not give them reduced penalties for certain actions. Certain PrC abilities can reduce these penalties (I've made feats for my game since I like to be more feat intensive). Improved Snipe allows you to make your hide check to snipe as a swift action, so you could attack, rehide, and move in the same round, making it more difficult to be found. The Commando PrC from Heroes of Battle has an ability that reduces the penalties for hiding while moving by half. After this thread, I've decided to go with the FAQs interpretation. The book says hiding while running, charging, or attacking suffers a -20 penalty. It also says that hiding is a move action or part of movement. So the shadow dancer who uses spring attack to jump from a shadow (-10 for full movement speed), then attack someone (-20 for attacking), then move back into the shadow (-10 for full movement speed) will have to make three separate hide checks; if successful, they will not be seen. Or, they could move from the shadow at half speed (no hide penalty) and attack (-20 for attacking) and remain there; I would rule that the character can determine what square the attack came from, but still doesn't see the attacker as long as the attacker is still able to hide. Rangers make the best characters for this scenario, since their Chamo and HiPS abilities let them hide right infront of someone's face as long as they are in natural terrain.