Hit Points = Skill Points [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hit Points = Skill Points [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arcane Guyver
10-22-06, 07:37 PM I was mulling over the problem of skill points vs hit points (how a class with lots of skill points is a more optimal 1st-level choice than one with lots of hit points).

So I had the idea - hit points are gained like skill points - a set number every level + Con modifier, x4 at 1st level. The number of hit points gained every level is equal to half HD (6 for d12, 5 for d10, 4 for d8, 3 for d6, 2 for d4).

Characters will all start with twice as many hit points as normal (more with a high Con), but hp growth will slow as they gain levels. Might be confusing to talk about HD with this system (substitute character level in such cases).
ericSHINRA
10-22-06, 07:58 PM Interesting idea, I guess... However, I think you should playtest it first.

How does HP growth slow as you gain levels? Won't it be consistant after second level? Also, how do you plan to work in Racial HD? Overall I think it's just too messy for my taste but to each his own.
X-Codes
10-22-06, 08:03 PM Hmmm... I like this one, but the certain lack of randomness involved kinda bugs me.

Perhaps you gain bonus HP equal to the highest value of your first HD, and no HD are automatically maxed?

As in, at first level a Fighter starts with 10 + 1d10 + Con modifier?
Or a Wizard starts with 4 + 1d4 + Con modifier?

If you still allow players to take average rolls, then it turns out to be somewhat between the way things are now and the way things are under your proposed rule variant.
Wayside
10-23-06, 09:45 AM You don't need to "work in" racial hit dice to this at all. racial HD are just like class levels as far as hp goes. I like the idea of increased hp at first level, it adds survivability to low level characters, and makes a multiclass characters 1st level choice more impacting than choosing the one with the most skill points. Honestly with all the alterations i've made on and around the hp system this never crossed my mind. Although i do have a concern about 1st level characters and con. Anything with a high con bonus would well, dwarf all competition with his hp. A 1st level rogue with a 10 con would have 12 HP, and a wizard with an 8 would have 4. Meanwhile the dwarven barbarian with an 18 con has 40 hp. This puts waay too much on Con. it would look a lot better with the con bonus not being multiplied, but it still seems quite shaky to me. The idea looks good at first glance, but when you run the numbers the high hp classes and high con characters are vastly more powerful than the others, and the low hp classes and low con characters are fish food. Couple this with the fact everything you fight has a hefty hp increase as well, and it just doesn't look all that great at all.
starfire311
10-23-06, 09:53 AM I am not a huge fan of this system... the x4 at 1st level is a bit much IMO

for example 1st level orc barbarain with con mod of say +5 while raging has (6+5)x4 = 44HP

What the heck does a 1st level Magic missile do against that.
Thelon Fairblade
10-24-06, 10:56 AM Make the Bonus HP based only on the class, not the Con. using the examples given:

Rogue, 10 Con: 6 + d6 + 0 (max 12)
Wizard, 8 CON: 4 + d4 - 1 (max 7)
Barbarian, 18 CON: 12 + d12 + 4 (max 28)
Cleric, 12 CON: 8 + d8 + 1 (max 17)

Now, look at 5th level:
Rogue, 10 Con: 6 + 5d6 + 0 (max 36)
Wizard, 8 CON: 4 + 5d4 - 5 (max 19)
Barbarian, 18 CON: 12 + 5d12 + 20 (max 92)
Cleric, 12 CON: 8 + 5d8 + 5 (max 53)

Compare to normal maxes: 30, 15, 80, and 45... about a 20% increase.

Moving up to 10th level, the benefit is reduced to a 9% increase.

So, the end result is PCs have more hp than normal, significantly so at low level, but not much extra at high level. The TOUGHNESS feat falls completely by the wayside, and IMPROVED TOUGHNESS probably does as well.

Looking at the OP's stated intent, though, does this really impact the "fighter/Rogue" multiclass? If he takes Rogue first, he gets 32 skp and 12hp (6+d6); if he takes fighter, he gets 8 skp and 20 hp (d10+10). Eight additional hp at 1st level is impressive, but it's actually only a 4-pt change from normal -- he already was willing to sacrifice the d10 for the d6, after all. And since he gets the +6 for being a rogue, those 8 points aren't as critical as the 4 points in the normal system.

So would this rule change things? Would a 1/1 Fighter/Rogue do anything different in this system than they do currently? I don't think so...
starfire311
10-24-06, 11:58 AM So would this rule change things? Would a 1/1 Fighter/Rogue do anything different in this system than they do currently? I don't think so...

probably not, that is why I created a houserule to specifically address this issue, instead of x4 at 1st level I give x2 skill points for the 1st 3 levels.
bholdr_mage
10-24-06, 03:39 PM Y'know at first I thought I was going to like this thread.

This seems innocent at first glance, but I think it would be too complicated; and I concur...it would be the same with fighter/rogue.

Here's what I think:

From my original thought on what the thread was; any character can spend any amount of permanent (after they roll or take the average or however you do hitpoints in your game) hit points and exchange them on a 1 for 1 basis with skill points.

So any character can choose to be weaker for the chance to be smarter.

-:behold:
starfire311
10-24-06, 05:41 PM From my original thought on what the thread was; any character can spend any amount of permanent (after they roll or take the average or however you do hitpoints in your game) hit points and exchange them on a 1 for 1 basis with skill points.

So any character can choose to be weaker for the chance to be smarter.

-:behold:

lol this is were I thought the thread was gonna go also, when I saw the title...
I was kinda excited too, thinking about using either HP or SP as a currency, I was gonna comment about how I thought about getting rid of BAB and turning it into skills in weapons... for example you could have 6 ranks in long sword, and 3 ranks in long bow(some weapons would be cross class, you get the idea) and you would have several defensive skills such as reflex, fortitude, will power, dodge and parry.
Arcane Guyver
10-24-06, 07:56 PM Heh, kinda surprised at all the responses this garnered. Not bad for an idea I came up with at work.

I don't think would be too complicated, as some have said, but it really doesn't do enough to equalize hit points and skill points. I honestly didn't give this much thought or playtesting, kind of a "theory" right now.

I'm a little confused about the lack of randomness complaint. Why should hit points, and hit points alone (as far as character builds go), be randomized?

I guess the hp growth wouldn't necessarily slow down as characters level, but I was thinking hp would be gained at the same rate as skill points.

Will have to think on this a bit further. Too many hit points and things might get crazy, but there is no other way to compete with 30+ skill points achieved at 1st level.
Arcane Guyver
10-24-06, 07:58 PM lol this is were I thought the thread was gonna go also, when I saw the title...
I was kinda excited too, thinking about using either HP or SP as a currency, I was gonna comment about how I thought about getting rid of BAB and turning it into skills in weapons... for example you could have 6 ranks in long sword, and 3 ranks in long bow(some weapons would be cross class, you get the idea) and you would have several defensive skills such as reflex, fortitude, will power, dodge and parry.
Sorry to disappoint! One of my friends already has a rudimentary system like that. We were playtesting, but some of the players had to drop. The fundamental concept works quite well, however.
Tequila_Sunrise
10-24-06, 09:44 PM My personal solution to the problem that you're trying to fix is very simple: a multiclass character computes hp and sp separately, as if both had been gained and maximized as the character's first character level. So a Fighter 1/Rogue 1 would have both maximized hp and maximized sp, no matter which class had been taken first.

This system also makes multiclass NPC creation much easier.
bholdr_mage
10-24-06, 10:29 PM My personal solution to the problem that you're trying to fix is very simple: a multiclass character computes hp and sp separately, as if both had been gained and maximized as the character's first character level. So a Fighter 1/Rogue 1 would have both maximized hp and maximized sp, no matter which class had been taken first.

This system also makes multiclass NPC creation much easier.

Actually, it's just the 1st character level that gains the max hit die (RAW). And the idea behind the swapping of hit points for skill points is so the character doesn't have to multiclass; it's so the classes can be more balanced and the player gets to choose the outcome of his character.

It's in this sense to why a fighter can't take spot and listen as easily as a rogue. Sure, I understand why a rogue gets so many skills and skill points; it fits their repritoire. But why my fighter can't know anything but how to swing his sword, or some kind of combat with the occasional crafting or jumping guru added in is beyond me. Basically, a fighter is horridly combat oriented and little else.

Some of us are tired of the old adventure hook/find the dungeon/kill the monsters/loot/ then rinse, lather, repeat. It's hard to run a political game if everyone only has spells and fighting techniques. It's also hard to run a game in between the two if a fighter/wizard/sorcerer/cleric is the main consensus of the party.

Ever play world of darkness? If so, everyone participates in discussion and fighting. Players feel more balanced and yet different with other abilities than the ones in DnD. I play that; but I also play DnD. I like the d20 system, it just seems hard sometimes to make everyone feel like they have a part in each moment of the campaign like it does in WOD.
Arcane Guyver
10-26-06, 05:06 PM Hey guys. I got to thinking on this a bit more, and realized that no matter how you fenangle it, the high skill-points characters come out on top in any multiclass combination. So it's not a matter of giving everyone else more hit points or skill points...it's giving people a reason to start off in a different class.

So...what about 'core abilities?' There's been a few games that do this already, where you get a special ability only available to folks who start off in a specific class. Give the classes with 2 skill points/level the best core abilities (like a couple weaker feats), and go from there. This could make some interesting class changes, as well - a Barbarian might get a better core ability than other 4 skill points/level class because it also gets the 'Illiteracy' ability.

Could be a way to rebalance a few classes as well - what if clerics normally get one domain, and as their core ability they get a second domain.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arcane Guyver 10-22-06, 07:37 PM	I was mulling over the problem of skill points vs hit points (how a class with lots of skill points is a more optimal 1st-level choice than one with lots of hit points). So I had the idea - hit points are gained like skill points - a set number every level + Con modifier, x4 at 1st level. The number of hit points gained every level is equal to half HD (6 for d12, 5 for d10, 4 for d8, 3 for d6, 2 for d4). Characters will all start with twice as many hit points as normal (more with a high Con), but hp growth will slow as they gain levels. Might be confusing to talk about HD with this system (substitute character level in such cases).
ericSHINRA 10-22-06, 07:58 PM	Interesting idea, I guess... However, I think you should playtest it first. How does HP growth slow as you gain levels? Won't it be consistant after second level? Also, how do you plan to work in Racial HD? Overall I think it's just too messy for my taste but to each his own.
X-Codes 10-22-06, 08:03 PM	Hmmm... I like this one, but the certain lack of randomness involved kinda bugs me. Perhaps you gain bonus HP equal to the highest value of your first HD, and no HD are automatically maxed? As in, at first level a Fighter starts with 10 + 1d10 + Con modifier? Or a Wizard starts with 4 + 1d4 + Con modifier? If you still allow players to take average rolls, then it turns out to be somewhat between the way things are now and the way things are under your proposed rule variant.
Wayside 10-23-06, 09:45 AM	You don't need to "work in" racial hit dice to this at all. racial HD are just like class levels as far as hp goes. I like the idea of increased hp at first level, it adds survivability to low level characters, and makes a multiclass characters 1st level choice more impacting than choosing the one with the most skill points. Honestly with all the alterations i've made on and around the hp system this never crossed my mind. Although i do have a concern about 1st level characters and con. Anything with a high con bonus would well, dwarf all competition with his hp. A 1st level rogue with a 10 con would have 12 HP, and a wizard with an 8 would have 4. Meanwhile the dwarven barbarian with an 18 con has 40 hp. This puts waay too much on Con. it would look a lot better with the con bonus not being multiplied, but it still seems quite shaky to me. The idea looks good at first glance, but when you run the numbers the high hp classes and high con characters are vastly more powerful than the others, and the low hp classes and low con characters are fish food. Couple this with the fact everything you fight has a hefty hp increase as well, and it just doesn't look all that great at all.
starfire311 10-23-06, 09:53 AM	I am not a huge fan of this system... the x4 at 1st level is a bit much IMO for example 1st level orc barbarain with con mod of say +5 while raging has (6+5)x4 = 44HP What the heck does a 1st level Magic missile do against that.
Thelon Fairblade 10-24-06, 10:56 AM	Make the Bonus HP based only on the class, not the Con. using the examples given: Rogue, 10 Con: 6 + d6 + 0 (max 12) Wizard, 8 CON: 4 + d4 - 1 (max 7) Barbarian, 18 CON: 12 + d12 + 4 (max 28) Cleric, 12 CON: 8 + d8 + 1 (max 17) Now, look at 5th level: Rogue, 10 Con: 6 + 5d6 + 0 (max 36) Wizard, 8 CON: 4 + 5d4 - 5 (max 19) Barbarian, 18 CON: 12 + 5d12 + 20 (max 92) Cleric, 12 CON: 8 + 5d8 + 5 (max 53) Compare to normal maxes: 30, 15, 80, and 45... about a 20% increase. Moving up to 10th level, the benefit is reduced to a 9% increase. So, the end result is PCs have more hp than normal, significantly so at low level, but not much extra at high level. The TOUGHNESS feat falls completely by the wayside, and IMPROVED TOUGHNESS probably does as well. Looking at the OP's stated intent, though, does this really impact the "fighter/Rogue" multiclass? If he takes Rogue first, he gets 32 skp and 12hp (6+d6); if he takes fighter, he gets 8 skp and 20 hp (d10+10). Eight additional hp at 1st level is impressive, but it's actually only a 4-pt change from normal -- he already was willing to sacrifice the d10 for the d6, after all. And since he gets the +6 for being a rogue, those 8 points aren't as critical as the 4 points in the normal system. So would this rule change things? Would a 1/1 Fighter/Rogue do anything different in this system than they do currently? I don't think so...
starfire311 10-24-06, 11:58 AM	So would this rule change things? Would a 1/1 Fighter/Rogue do anything different in this system than they do currently? I don't think so... probably not, that is why I created a houserule to specifically address this issue, instead of x4 at 1st level I give x2 skill points for the 1st 3 levels.
bholdr_mage 10-24-06, 03:39 PM	Y'know at first I thought I was going to like this thread. This seems innocent at first glance, but I think it would be too complicated; and I concur...it would be the same with fighter/rogue. Here's what I think: From my original thought on what the thread was; any character can spend any amount of permanent (after they roll or take the average or however you do hitpoints in your game) hit points and exchange them on a 1 for 1 basis with skill points. So any character can choose to be weaker for the chance to be smarter. -:behold:
starfire311 10-24-06, 05:41 PM	From my original thought on what the thread was; any character can spend any amount of permanent (after they roll or take the average or however you do hitpoints in your game) hit points and exchange them on a 1 for 1 basis with skill points. So any character can choose to be weaker for the chance to be smarter. -:behold: lol this is were I thought the thread was gonna go also, when I saw the title... I was kinda excited too, thinking about using either HP or SP as a currency, I was gonna comment about how I thought about getting rid of BAB and turning it into skills in weapons... for example you could have 6 ranks in long sword, and 3 ranks in long bow(some weapons would be cross class, you get the idea) and you would have several defensive skills such as reflex, fortitude, will power, dodge and parry.
Arcane Guyver 10-24-06, 07:56 PM	Heh, kinda surprised at all the responses this garnered. Not bad for an idea I came up with at work. I don't think would be too complicated, as some have said, but it really doesn't do enough to equalize hit points and skill points. I honestly didn't give this much thought or playtesting, kind of a "theory" right now. I'm a little confused about the lack of randomness complaint. Why should hit points, and hit points alone (as far as character builds go), be randomized? I guess the hp growth wouldn't necessarily slow down as characters level, but I was thinking hp would be gained at the same rate as skill points. Will have to think on this a bit further. Too many hit points and things might get crazy, but there is no other way to compete with 30+ skill points achieved at 1st level.
Arcane Guyver 10-24-06, 07:58 PM	lol this is were I thought the thread was gonna go also, when I saw the title... I was kinda excited too, thinking about using either HP or SP as a currency, I was gonna comment about how I thought about getting rid of BAB and turning it into skills in weapons... for example you could have 6 ranks in long sword, and 3 ranks in long bow(some weapons would be cross class, you get the idea) and you would have several defensive skills such as reflex, fortitude, will power, dodge and parry. Sorry to disappoint! One of my friends already has a rudimentary system like that. We were playtesting, but some of the players had to drop. The fundamental concept works quite well, however.
Tequila_Sunrise 10-24-06, 09:44 PM	My personal solution to the problem that you're trying to fix is very simple: a multiclass character computes hp and sp separately, as if both had been gained and maximized as the character's first character level. So a Fighter 1/Rogue 1 would have both maximized hp and maximized sp, no matter which class had been taken first. This system also makes multiclass NPC creation much easier.
bholdr_mage 10-24-06, 10:29 PM	My personal solution to the problem that you're trying to fix is very simple: a multiclass character computes hp and sp separately, as if both had been gained and maximized as the character's first character level. So a Fighter 1/Rogue 1 would have both maximized hp and maximized sp, no matter which class had been taken first. This system also makes multiclass NPC creation much easier. Actually, it's just the 1st character level that gains the max hit die (RAW). And the idea behind the swapping of hit points for skill points is so the character doesn't have to multiclass; it's so the classes can be more balanced and the player gets to choose the outcome of his character. It's in this sense to why a fighter can't take spot and listen as easily as a rogue. Sure, I understand why a rogue gets so many skills and skill points; it fits their repritoire. But why my fighter can't know anything but how to swing his sword, or some kind of combat with the occasional crafting or jumping guru added in is beyond me. Basically, a fighter is horridly combat oriented and little else. Some of us are tired of the old adventure hook/find the dungeon/kill the monsters/loot/ then rinse, lather, repeat. It's hard to run a political game if everyone only has spells and fighting techniques. It's also hard to run a game in between the two if a fighter/wizard/sorcerer/cleric is the main consensus of the party. Ever play world of darkness? If so, everyone participates in discussion and fighting. Players feel more balanced and yet different with other abilities than the ones in DnD. I play that; but I also play DnD. I like the d20 system, it just seems hard sometimes to make everyone feel like they have a part in each moment of the campaign like it does in WOD.
Arcane Guyver 10-26-06, 05:06 PM	Hey guys. I got to thinking on this a bit more, and realized that no matter how you fenangle it, the high skill-points characters come out on top in any multiclass combination. So it's not a matter of giving everyone else more hit points or skill points...it's giving people a reason to start off in a different class. So...what about 'core abilities?' There's been a few games that do this already, where you get a special ability only available to folks who start off in a specific class. Give the classes with 2 skill points/level the best core abilities (like a couple weaker feats), and go from there. This could make some interesting class changes, as well - a Barbarian might get a better core ability than other 4 skill points/level class because it also gets the 'Illiteracy' ability. Could be a way to rebalance a few classes as well - what if clerics normally get one domain, and as their core ability they get a second domain.