Homebrew Idea for an Army Competition [Archive] - Wizards Community

Homebrew Idea for an Army Competition [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Malkonnen
10-24-05, 05:36 PM I originally posted this on the Character Optimization board, thinking they would be more suited to help me on this one. But I think since this is basically about creating various house rules to make this idea work, I think here is where this post belongs:

Basically I was bored on the train the other day and was reading in the back of my copy of The Complete Warrior, the "historical warfare" chapter with d&d rules for playing out battles, etc. as well as rules and ideas for a mercenary campaign, and I had the idea to run a competition for fun w/ some of my players where each would create an army and they would all face off against each other in a tournament style format.

My problem is determining how to govern the army creation process, so that they end up reasonably balanced against each other. I want the versatility where you could create a massive army of all 1st level fighters, or invest all your "points" in a single well equiped high level character. Where depending on the builds and flexibility, no team could be unbeatable or unwinable.

I've already ruled out a straight consistent Encounter Level rating for each army, since it rates groups of low CR mobs too high compared to a single high CR mob. In other words I want there to be enough incentive for creating an army of say 64 1st level fighters, since by EL standards an equivalent EL is a 13th level sorceror.

So far I'm thinking of assigning each team a certain amount of points which can be spent on gp or xp interchangeably. As so far, when I've played with the numbers 1 gp = 1 xp has made pretty closely balanced builds. Some fudge factors are that PrC levels are worth at least 1.5x normal xp cost, and any class with full spell progression is worth 2x. This is simply because most PrC's are much more powerful in this setting on level-to-level basis with the base classes. And spellcasting classes in this format will shine since area effect spells will be especially valuable and since it is constrained to essentially a single encounter they can feel free to unload all of their spells in a single fight. Lastly the NPC classes are .5x normal cost, for the bargain seekers. ;) As for 1st level characters, I charge 500xp as their are about half as valuable as a 2nd level character.

As an example a 13th level sorceror would cost 78000 * 2 = 156,000gp. So that makes 1 (unequiped) 13th level sorceror now equivalent to about 624 1st level (unequiped) warriors. Unlike the 64 to 1 ratio of before, the warriors could potentially exaust the sorcerors complement of spells per day if played well.

(Note: Casters will NOT be allowed to prebuff, though starting positions will be rather far apart.)

Essentially the kind of builds I'm hoping to encourage are the likes of: a relatively large group of low level fighters using various swarm tactics, led by a bard w/ inspire courage (or Marshall or War Cleric, etc), vs. an orge warhulk, vs. a small group of frenzied berzerkers vs. a large group of 1st level sorcerors (magic missile squad) vs. a large group of archers vs. a single high level caster, etc.

At this point the starting gp/xp total that the players will have to build their armies will be 250,000. I arrived at this number from my desire to include several different PrC builds, while still avoiding 9th level spells.

Suggestions? Questions?

Thanks in advance,
Malk
BrutalMisery
10-29-05, 05:22 PM In that Heroes of battle book, they have an intrestign take on how to run D&D during a battle/whole war. Bascally, it boils down to the PC's vs smallish groups (no more than 12 to 16, preferible 8-12) of low level bad guys, while the heors try to ccomplish specific goals (seize and hold the bridage, take that hill, take out that supplytrain, defend this point, etc.)

Basically, the heroes are sent across the battlefeild to do their thing, and they constantly atacked by lower level baddies. To be honest, it sounded a lot better than I can describe it.

Just my thoughts
Malkonnen
10-31-05, 10:37 AM In that Heroes of battle book, they have an intrestign take on how to run D&D during a battle/whole war. Bascally, it boils down to the PC's vs smallish groups (no more than 12 to 16, preferible 8-12) of low level bad guys, while the heors try to ccomplish specific goals (seize and hold the bridage, take that hill, take out that supplytrain, defend this point, etc.)

Basically, the heroes are sent across the battlefeild to do their thing, and they constantly atacked by lower level baddies. To be honest, it sounded a lot better than I can describe it.

Just my thoughts

Hmm, thanks a lot for the post, BrutalMisery. I haven't picked up HoB yet, but I've been meaning to. It definitely sounds like its worth doing so quickly if I'm gonna run with this idea. If for no other reason than I was wondering how I was going to DM an encounter on the scale of 50 vs. 50 or so. Plus I hear the book has some pretty good feats.

A little later I'll post some of the teams I've come up with so far. Cuz I'm really looking for some feedback on the balance between them based on my system.

Thanks,
Malk
jagggar
10-31-05, 01:14 PM I'm interested in seeing what your results look like.

One of my friends came up with mass combat unit idea, which I then ran with and ended up turning it into something that looked like the mob from DMGII (before it was released).

We used leadership scores and came up with the following chart so you could trade in for higher-level followers (or followers with an ECL). First column is the level of the character. Second column is a calculation based on the encounter level idea. Third is the one we used, based on something really mathmatical that I can't reacall.
Later
Level Calc. Trade In
1 1 1
2 2 2
3 3 3
4 4 4
5 6 5
6 8 8
7 12 11
8 16 16
9 24 22
10 32 32
11 48 45
12 64 64
13 96 90
14 128 128
15 192 181
16 256 256
17 384 362
18 512 512
19 768 724
20 1024 1024

Probably be easier if we skipped the leadership thing and just said "You have X points with which to buy your army."

We're actually silly enough to have created it and not tested it yet. We got caught up in other things. I think I'll probably bring it up soon.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Malkonnen 10-24-05, 05:36 PM	I originally posted this on the Character Optimization board, thinking they would be more suited to help me on this one. But I think since this is basically about creating various house rules to make this idea work, I think here is where this post belongs: Basically I was bored on the train the other day and was reading in the back of my copy of The Complete Warrior, the "historical warfare" chapter with d&d rules for playing out battles, etc. as well as rules and ideas for a mercenary campaign, and I had the idea to run a competition for fun w/ some of my players where each would create an army and they would all face off against each other in a tournament style format. My problem is determining how to govern the army creation process, so that they end up reasonably balanced against each other. I want the versatility where you could create a massive army of all 1st level fighters, or invest all your "points" in a single well equiped high level character. Where depending on the builds and flexibility, no team could be unbeatable or unwinable. I've already ruled out a straight consistent Encounter Level rating for each army, since it rates groups of low CR mobs too high compared to a single high CR mob. In other words I want there to be enough incentive for creating an army of say 64 1st level fighters, since by EL standards an equivalent EL is a 13th level sorceror. So far I'm thinking of assigning each team a certain amount of points which can be spent on gp or xp interchangeably. As so far, when I've played with the numbers 1 gp = 1 xp has made pretty closely balanced builds. Some fudge factors are that PrC levels are worth at least 1.5x normal xp cost, and any class with full spell progression is worth 2x. This is simply because most PrC's are much more powerful in this setting on level-to-level basis with the base classes. And spellcasting classes in this format will shine since area effect spells will be especially valuable and since it is constrained to essentially a single encounter they can feel free to unload all of their spells in a single fight. Lastly the NPC classes are .5x normal cost, for the bargain seekers. ;) As for 1st level characters, I charge 500xp as their are about half as valuable as a 2nd level character. As an example a 13th level sorceror would cost 78000 * 2 = 156,000gp. So that makes 1 (unequiped) 13th level sorceror now equivalent to about 624 1st level (unequiped) warriors. Unlike the 64 to 1 ratio of before, the warriors could potentially exaust the sorcerors complement of spells per day if played well. (Note: Casters will NOT be allowed to prebuff, though starting positions will be rather far apart.) Essentially the kind of builds I'm hoping to encourage are the likes of: a relatively large group of low level fighters using various swarm tactics, led by a bard w/ inspire courage (or Marshall or War Cleric, etc), vs. an orge warhulk, vs. a small group of frenzied berzerkers vs. a large group of 1st level sorcerors (magic missile squad) vs. a large group of archers vs. a single high level caster, etc. At this point the starting gp/xp total that the players will have to build their armies will be 250,000. I arrived at this number from my desire to include several different PrC builds, while still avoiding 9th level spells. Suggestions? Questions? Thanks in advance, Malk
BrutalMisery 10-29-05, 05:22 PM	In that Heroes of battle book, they have an intrestign take on how to run D&D during a battle/whole war. Bascally, it boils down to the PC's vs smallish groups (no more than 12 to 16, preferible 8-12) of low level bad guys, while the heors try to ccomplish specific goals (seize and hold the bridage, take that hill, take out that supplytrain, defend this point, etc.) Basically, the heroes are sent across the battlefeild to do their thing, and they constantly atacked by lower level baddies. To be honest, it sounded a lot better than I can describe it. Just my thoughts
Malkonnen 10-31-05, 10:37 AM	In that Heroes of battle book, they have an intrestign take on how to run D&D during a battle/whole war. Bascally, it boils down to the PC's vs smallish groups (no more than 12 to 16, preferible 8-12) of low level bad guys, while the heors try to ccomplish specific goals (seize and hold the bridage, take that hill, take out that supplytrain, defend this point, etc.) Basically, the heroes are sent across the battlefeild to do their thing, and they constantly atacked by lower level baddies. To be honest, it sounded a lot better than I can describe it. Just my thoughts Hmm, thanks a lot for the post, BrutalMisery. I haven't picked up HoB yet, but I've been meaning to. It definitely sounds like its worth doing so quickly if I'm gonna run with this idea. If for no other reason than I was wondering how I was going to DM an encounter on the scale of 50 vs. 50 or so. Plus I hear the book has some pretty good feats. A little later I'll post some of the teams I've come up with so far. Cuz I'm really looking for some feedback on the balance between them based on my system. Thanks, Malk
jagggar 10-31-05, 01:14 PM	I'm interested in seeing what your results look like. One of my friends came up with mass combat unit idea, which I then ran with and ended up turning it into something that looked like the mob from DMGII (before it was released). We used leadership scores and came up with the following chart so you could trade in for higher-level followers (or followers with an ECL). First column is the level of the character. Second column is a calculation based on the encounter level idea. Third is the one we used, based on something really mathmatical that I can't reacall. Later Level Calc. Trade In 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 5 6 5 6 8 8 7 12 11 8 16 16 9 24 22 10 32 32 11 48 45 12 64 64 13 96 90 14 128 128 15 192 181 16 256 256 17 384 362 18 512 512 19 768 724 20 1024 1024 Probably be easier if we skipped the leadership thing and just said "You have X points with which to buy your army." We're actually silly enough to have created it and not tested it yet. We got caught up in other things. I think I'll probably bring it up soon.