Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fnep Wigglesworth 11-14-04, 01:51 PM	I don't know if anyone else plays with something similar but in my games, whenever a player rolls a 1 on attack role it counts as a critical miss. So not only does he miss his target but we have a chart where some other things can happen (hiting someone else, droping weapon etc..) but one of them is sundering your weapon. The way it goes is ever this option is rolled, whatever dmg you had rolled for the attack is instead made against your weapon, acting in everyway as if you were sundering it. Hardness still applies and hp and everything. You can use wetstones to fix it (5 hp per stone) but you can only heal up to 50% of it's total health before the weapon get's too thin to fix anymore. When the weapon's hp reaches 0 it's broken and the player has to pay half of it's cost (magical attribute and all added) to have it fixed. With it, we made a new weapon ability. Indestructable: The weapon is no longer subject to sundering in any way shape or form. Cost:+3 modifier Anyways just sharing and wondering wether people think it a good idea or if they have similar house rules they can share.
Lord Schpungus 11-14-04, 02:14 PM	God that blows. You should never break a character's weapon on him by critical failure. That's just stupid and hurts everyone.
Fnep Wigglesworth 11-14-04, 02:52 PM	it doesn't break in one shot. Usualy the hardness takes the hit but a weapon that can hit a thousand time and still be perfectly sharp is as stupid as well. You might not like it but my players jumped on it the moment I mentioned it. To each his own.
Kadasbrass 11-14-04, 06:29 PM	We been working on a system when you make a critcal miss that roll another dice to determine the effect, roll high and its normal, roll low and it gets worse the lower you go.
Daemeon_Blackheart 11-15-04, 01:12 AM	Since you guys are on the critcal miss idea I have a thought for you guys. I used top play advanced D&D and eveytime we rolled a 1 we use a d% to see what happened. If you rolled high the weapon breaks if you rolled lowed you have a possibility to hit your self or a wrong target. Anyways for me I jsut use that same chart.
Kaya Kenobi 11-15-04, 02:21 AM	it doesn't break in one shot. Usualy the hardness takes the hit but a weapon that can hit a thousand time and still be perfectly sharp is as stupid as well. You might not like it but my players jumped on it the moment I mentioned it. To each his own. Usually warriors have Craft: Weaponsmithing to keep their weapons sharp all the time. There, your reasoning is bunk.
[GSV] Kirstar 11-15-04, 04:24 AM	my group uses a critical fumble system as well. if you roll a naturel 1, you roll again to see if you would miss (like a critical confirmation roll) if it is a fumble roll d6 1-2 hits one of you (basically a chance of striking one of you allies. roll for random target and roll normal to hit) 3-4 drops to the floor (drop your weapon, use action to retrieve etc etc) 5-6 needs to be fixed (do base damage to your weapon)
Ualaa 11-15-04, 05:39 AM	In my campaign, a natural 20 is a re-roll with a +10 bonus to determine what you actually rolled. A natural 1 is a re-roll with a -10 penalty to determine what you roll. That said, if you need a 19 or higher to possibly critical, the re-roll is not necessary as the initial roll threatens the critical. Its more for a Saving Throw vs a high DC or skill check kind of thing. Basically, the less chance you put into the game, the more it favors the player characters who are participants in all combats/actions etc. The more chance and randomness you introduce, the less favorable the game is to the players. For example, instituiting a natural 1 roll with a weapon results in your death... hurts the protagonists a lot more then their antagonists since they will roll every combat. One of my players is also a DM and I play in his setting. He is using a critical fumble table, which adds something fun to the game. I don't really like the idea of damaging your weapon on a bad roll.... Then again, I don't like the idea of rolling a 100 on the critical fumble table and slaying a member of your party (by accident)... The more chance you add to the game, the more interesting any given roll will be, and the less likely your players are to survive in the long run.
Lilt 11-15-04, 06:52 AM	I have a secondary roll, low implying a critical miss and high implying merely an automatic miss, but only harm a weapon slightly at any one time with a critical miss. Essentially, the weapon is bluntened/bent/chipped/split reducing its effectiveness for the rest of the combat. IE: a -1 to attack rolls is applied. If they critically miss again, a minus one is applied to damage. Subsequent critical misses add -1 to hit, then -1 to damage, then -1 to hit and so forth until the weapon is effectively useless. The basic efgfects last until the character makes a successful Craft (Weaponsmithing) roll with a minute of work, or casts a mending spell or similar on the weapon. They can take a -5 on the craft check to do it as a full-round action but then they risk damaging the weapon further. Nobody has yet bought a harder weapon (Adamantite), but if they did then it woudl be the character who was hurt (giving -1 to attack) rather than the weapon, requiring a heal check/cure instead of a craft check/mending.
Fnep Wigglesworth 11-15-04, 03:39 PM	Usually warriors have Craft: Weaponsmithing to keep their weapons sharp all the time. There, your reasoning is bunk. Since there are no rules on weapons breaking in battle except if sundered, usualy my players took feats that would serve a better purpose while adventuring or role playing. If a weapon cannot break unless someone sunders it, why would a fighter bother taking a craft skill when the best he can do is a masterwork weapon.
celebrist 11-15-04, 07:45 PM	i posted a thread on critical hit / miss, glad to see you got a better response! i have always used a "clutz" rule to go with criticals, i think it adds alot of excitement and tension to combat. in the past i have shattered magic weapons, decapitated allies, etc... i guess i am mellowing out in my old age and have started using the following guidelines: on a natural 1 roll again, if a miss one of three things 1. in meele provoke attack of opportunity 2. if shooting into meele hit ally 3. drop weapon/item if neither applies to balance new negative i have been letting a natural 20 do max damage but am starting to have second thoughts about that being too powerful and also possibly adding a fall prone and a damage weapon(on a second natural 1 roll)
Kaya Kenobi 11-16-04, 11:12 AM	Since there are no rules on weapons breaking in battle except if sundered, usualy my players took feats that would serve a better purpose while adventuring or role playing. If a weapon cannot break unless someone sunders it, why would a fighter bother taking a craft skill when the best he can do is a masterwork weapon. Because if a Fighter doesn't take any ranks in Craft: Weaponsmith, and Craft: Armorsmith, their weapons and armor loses effectiveness and will break or become useless after extended usage.
Fnep Wigglesworth 11-16-04, 08:44 PM	Because if a Fighter doesn't take any ranks in Craft: Weaponsmith, and Craft: Armorsmith, their weapons and armor loses effectiveness and will break or become useless after extended usage. Like I said, I don't remember reading any rules about extended usage. I might be wrong so if there are, tell me where to find them please.
FatherNature 11-17-04, 02:42 PM	this is the chart I use, bear in mind that when I roll d%, I go by "higher=good, lower=bad" Critical Failure for combat d%__ What happens 01-10 crit miss, reroll failure and your opponent gets an AoO. 11-30 hit ally/object, else weapon is flung 1d6 squares away and takes 1d6 damage 31-50 drop weapon. 51-90 lesser miss, you miss and lose your next turn. 91-99 normal miss 00-00 reroll your attack(unless AoO kills you) In my games, unless you specifically attack yourself I will never allow you to Crit Fail and hit yourself. Can you imagin a Monk Crit Failing and Punching himself...neither can I.
Carpe DM 11-17-04, 05:10 PM	We use a somewhat different critical system in my game, but that's mainly because we use the Wounds and Vitality variant. However, it could be used fine normally, too. Here's how it goes: If the threat range is 19-20 x2 for the weapon it becomes 20 x3. If the threat range is 18-20 x2 for the weapon it becomes 20 x4. I'm sure you can see where that's going. Essentially, without special abilities, only a 20 is a critical hit. Abilities like "keen" or "improved critical" do not "double the critical threat range". Instead they improve the damage multiplier by one step (so with both improved critical and keen edge, a longsword would be 20 x5). Now, we all know a 20 is an automatic hit and a 1 is an automatic miss. Just like how you make a confirmation check with a second attack roll to see if it's a critical hit, you also make a second attack roll to see if it's a critical failure. If the second attack roll misses, then it's a critical failure. Unlike critical hits, which are pretty much ruled out, critical failures do not use a table. Essentially I come up with what happens on the fly. The player makes a luck check (which is just a straight 1d20 unless you have some kind of special modifier). Like any check in the game, higher is better for you. If the player rolls pretty high I usually say they just dropped the weapon, or something simple like that. If it's a middle-area roll, some minor calamity occurs, depending on the circumstance. If you're swinging a sword in a cavern, for example, I might say you clipped the tip of your sword against the cavern wall. The sword isn't broken, but I might say it has perhaps a -2 to damage rolls due to the edge being worn by the stone, until a relatively simple Craft check is made to fix it. Or I might say the blade is bent very slightly, imposing a -1 to attack rolls until fixed. If it's a bow, you can always use the classic "the string snapped", but I prefer more situational penalties. If it's a low roll, some significant calamity occurs (usually an amusing one, though). We had someone who was using a bow, and rolled like a 3...so I ruled that when she pulled the string back to fire, the bow itself slipped out of her hand, causing it to pull back towards the outstretched string and smack her in the face for 1d4 damage and a -2 morale check on all rolls until the end of that combat. But the plus side was, the two enemies standing in front of her were too busy laughing to do anything useful that combat round. Had someone else wielding a battleaxe who made a low roll...it flew out of his hand, over the heads of his enemies, and landed squarely against a chain on the back wall that held up a magical (continual flame) light fixture up above. So although he was disarmed and his enemies were between him and his weapon, the light fixture fell down and clobbered the enemy cleric that was behind the other enemies. Didn't kill him, but kept him out of the picture for a few rounds.
Aegis Sol 11-18-04, 10:18 AM	In my games, unless you specifically attack yourself I will never allow you to Crit Fail and hit yourself. Can you imagin a Monk Crit Failing and Punching himself...neither can I. Actually, as a student of martial artist for seven years, I would say that a monk could fumble. A number of times during my experience I have seen people accidentally hit themselves in the face pulling while pulling back from a strike, or even with an axe kick. Okay- I admit it, there have been a time or two when I was that person. :blush: It didn't hurt too much (1d6 dmg?), but then, we were using sparring pads. Heck, I have even seen cats and other animals fumble while play-fighting, knocking their heads upon the ground and such. In any case, a less silly (and in my opinion, more realistic) view of the 'hit self' result in the case of the monk would be pulling a muscle or some such due to overextending the strike or the like. I will agree, however, that an unarmed attacker is less likely to fumble. To simulate this, I grant the unarmed or natural attacking fumbler a +10 on their roll to confirm the fumble threat, meaning that their fumbles are quite a rare thing.
His Divine Shadow 11-18-04, 02:23 PM	I quite like the idea of having fumble. I've just come back to D&D after a gap of many years (I first played in 1978, and I must have spent thousands of hours playing it in the following 10 years.) Anyway, the fumble rules were very commonly played back then - by me and most other DMs - so I think I'll introduce them into my new campaign. However, I will take on board the comments above, re: breaking weapons, killing companions etc. I don't want to make it too nasty - but just enough to spice things up a bit! :) I'm favouring the "reroll to confirm a threatened fumble" approach, along with the "then roll on a table to determine the outcome" rule. Then you can make the outcomes on the table as nasty/not so nasty as you want. I'll play it by ear... I also think I'll instigate some kind of hitpoints for weapons... Details yet to be worked out! ;)
Kaya Kenobi 11-19-04, 06:16 PM	Critical Failures Variant Rule: When a natural 1 is rolled, the character must makes a critical confirmation roll (roll again - if that is a miss then you fumble). However, if you have any additional attacks remaining, you may give them up (in order) for a +4 to the confirmation roll each (worked out after the die roll, so you only have to give up as many as required to avert a fumble). On a fumble, the character must make a dexterity check (DC 15). Failure indicates that something unfavorable has occurred. Notes for the Bad Misses Effects table: 1. A PC that is “off-balance” gives ground, 5’ with each successful hit by his foe while the PC is “off-balance”. 2. A “weapon within reach” can be recovered in the round after it was dropped. 3. A “weapon out of reach” can be recovered if the PC moves to retrieve the weapon. 4. If the PC, NPC or Monster is using natural weaponry, they suffer d4 points of damage in place of all “weapon damaged” results. 5. If a PC is using a magical weapon when any of the “weapon damaged” results come up the weapon receives a save with a +1 for each plus the weapon has. 6. “Injure Ally” indicates that an ally of the PC, NPC or Monster. If no one is within reach, then this result is treated as “no effect”. Bad Misses Effects Table—All Weapons 01-02 Critical slip; Reflex DC 25 check or fall and be stunned for d4 rounds. 03-04 Severe slip; Reflex DC 20 check or fall and be stunned for d4 rounds. 05-06 Moderate slip; Reflex DC 15 check or fall and be stunned for d2 rounds. 07-08 Minor slip; Reflex DC 10 check or fall and be stunned for d2 rounds. 09-10 Critical Trip and Fall; Stunned for d4 rounds. 11-12 Severe Trip and Fall; Stunned for d3 rounds. 13-14 Moderate Trip and Fall; Stunned for d2 rounds. 15-16 Minor Trip and Fall; Stunned for 1 round. 17-18 Critical Off Balance; All foes gains +4 to Attack rolls for d4 rounds. 19-20 Severe Off Balance; All foes gains +3 to Attack rolls for d3 rounds. 21-22 Moderate Off Balance; All foes gains +2 to Attack rolls for d2 rounds. 23-24 Minor Off Balance; All foes gains +1 to Attack rolls for d1 round. 25-26 Critical Tangle; Weapon or Shield becomes tangled with opponent; Reflex DC 25 check or lose item out of reach (d20 + 5’) 27-28 Severe Tangle; Weapon or Shield becomes tangled with opponent; Reflex DC 20 check or lose item out of reach (d20 + 5’) 29-30 Moderate Tangle; Weapon or Shield becomes tangled with opponent; Reflex DC 15 check or lose item out of reach (d20 + 5’) 31-32 Minor Tangle; Weapon or Shield becomes tangled with opponent; Reflex DC 10 check or lose item out of reach (d20 + 5’) 33-34 Critical Tangle; Weapon or Shield becomes tangled with opponent; Reflex DC 25 check or lose item within reach 35-36 Severe Tangle; Weapon or Shield becomes tangled with opponent; Reflex DC 20 check or lose item within reach 37-38 Moderate Tangle; Weapon or Shield becomes tangled with opponent; Reflex DC 15 check or lose item within reach 39-40 Minor Tangle; Weapon or Shield becomes tangled with opponent; Reflex DC 10 check or lose item within reach 41-42 Critical Weapon Damaged; Completely broken. 43-44 Severe Weapon Damaged; Gain –3 to Attack rolls, Damage rolls reduced by 75%. 45-46 Moderate Weapon Damaged; Gain –2 to Attack rolls, Damage rolls reduced by 50%. 47-48 Minor Weapon Damaged; Gain –1 to Attack rolls, Damage rolls reduced by 25%. 49-50 Critical Injure Self; Damage x 2 51-52 Severe Injure Self; Damage x 1.5 53-54 Moderate Injure Self; Damage x 1 55-56 Minor Injure Self; Damage x .5 57-58 Critical Injure Ally; Damage x 2 59-60 Severe Injure Ally; Damage x 1.5 61-62 Moderate Injure Ally; Damage x 1 63-64 Minor Injure Ally; Damage x .5 65-66 Critical Lose Grip on Weapon; Reflex DC 25 or suffer a penalty to next Attack roll equal to the amount the check failed by. 67-68 Severe Lose Grip on Weapon; Reflex DC 20 or suffer a penalty to next Attack roll equal to the amount the check failed by. 69-70 Moderate Lose Grip on Weapon; Reflex DC 15 or suffer a penalty to next Attack roll equal to the amount the check failed by. 71-72 Minor Lose Grip on Weapon; Reflex DC 10 or suffer a penalty to next Attack roll equal to the amount the check failed by. 73-74 Critical Lose Grip on Weapon; Reflex DC 25 or lose weapon out of reach (d20 + 5’). 75-76 Severe Lose Grip on Weapon; Reflex DC 20 or lose weapon out of reach (d20 + 5’). 77-78 Moderate Lose Grip on Weapon; Reflex DC 15 or lose weapon out of reach (d20 + 5’). 79-80 Minor Lose Grip on Weapon; Reflex DC 10 or lose weapon out of reach (d20 + 5’). 81-82 Critical Lose Grip on Weapon; Reflex DC 25 or lose weapon within reach. 83-84 Severe Lose Grip on Weapon; Reflex DC 20 or lose weapon within reach. 85-86 Moderate Lose Grip on Weapon; Reflex DC 15 or lose weapon within reach. 87-88 Minor Lose Grip on Weapon; Reflex DC 10 or lose weapon within reach. 89-90 Critical Ankle Sprain; Move Speed 0’, All foes gains +4 to Attack rolls, Reflex DC 25 or fall to ground. Until healed. 91-92 Severe Ankle Sprain; Move Speed reduced by 75%, All foes gains +3 to Attack rolls. Reflex DC 20 or fall. Until healed. 93-94 Moderate Ankle Sprain; Move Speed reduced by 50%, All foes gains +2 to Attack rolls. Reflex DC 15 or fall. Until healed. 95-96 Minor Ankle Sprain; Move Speed reduced by 25%, All foes gains +1 to Attack rolls. Reflex DC 10 or fall. Until healed. 97 Critical Wrist Sprain; Gain –4 to Attack rolls. Until healed. 98 Severe Wrist Sprain; Gain –3 to Attack rolls. Until healed. 99 Moderate Wrist Sprain; Gain –2 to Attack rolls. Until healed. 00 Minor Wrist Sprain; Gain –1 to Attack rolls. Until healed.
His Divine Shadow 11-20-04, 01:07 PM	I like those rules, Kaya! I think I'll go with that! :) Thanks, saved me a lot of work!
Kaya Kenobi 11-20-04, 03:16 PM	I like those rules, Kaya! I think I'll go with that! :) Thanks, saved me a lot of work! heh.. I had it cached away on my computer for a long time, and I just got my computer set up again, and I dug it out.. :D It's something I used when I played ADnD, but I had to update it for 3e when I adopted it. :D