House Rule disection [Archive] - Wizards Community

House Rule disection [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Toloran
10-16-06, 09:41 PM When I first joined my group (several months ago) they already had a number of house rules implimented. As such, I was more or less compelled to use them when I DM'ed for the group (we rotate DMs). I want to convince them to change them back to standard (or at least iron out the problem areas) but the best way it seems to do it would be by abusing said house rules (and then tactfully pointing out how the offical rules would have prevented it). However, I have yet to find a suitible method to break these house rules (there may in fact not be any way to drastically break these rules so in such a case, there would be no problem).

Without further ado:

* All weapons only crit on a natural 20 (abilities and items that affect crit range do not work or are otherwise banned).
* All weapons only deal x2 damage on a crit (base)
(The idea between those two rules is so that players to don't have to look up what a weapon does in the PHB all the time).

* A natural 20 is NOT an automatic hit. Instead (on any d20 roll) a natural 20 counts as a 30 before modifiers (this applys less in combat, but more in skill checks).
* A natural 1 is not an automatic failure/miss. A natural 1 counts as a -10 before modifiers.

* If the total (after all modifiers) of a d20 roll is less then 0, it is a possible fumble/critical-failure. Generally this means there is a chance you'll break/drop your weapon or whatever you are making will explode. At lower levels this can be annoying but once you get a +10 modifier to something, it is basically impossible to fumble/critically-fail. What happens during a critical fumble is up to the DM to decide. Generally that means something funny happens (Think order of the stick).

* If a non-leathal damage attack would have put you to -30 or lower (that generally only happens on a crit), you die anyway (basically it means you were beaten into a coma).

Any glaring problems with these rules? I would like to point out that my group is very relaxed, there is only one rules-lawyer/power-gamer in the group (and he isn't me), and my group is a very large group (varies between 8-12 people).
antsterr
10-17-06, 02:55 AM If a natural 20 is always a critical and you don't have to confirm it, then I think dropping the critical modifiers is mostly fair. Weapons with with 18-20 or x4 would be watered down by this. If you still have to confirm criticals I think this rule stinks.

I play with the rule that you can't critically succeed or fail a skill check. Only attack rolls. In this case the 30 and -10 rules seem fair in order to keep 1st level player from succeeding an attack on a red dragon 1 in 20 times or a 20th level from missing goblin 1/20 times.

I like the non-lethal damage rule there. It makes it possible to beat someone or thing to death with your fists if desired.
My personal house rule is that once something had dropped to -10 from non-lethal damage any more non-lethal damage becomes lethal, so effectively you have to double their hit points to kill them and it's possible to beat something within an inch or hit-point of it's life.

Other then the critical success or failure of a skill check I'd have no problem with any of those house rules.
OneSidedDice
10-17-06, 03:20 AM I think your group needs to reexamine how nonlethal damage works. It's impossible to be dropped to -30 by it, because it never actually reduces your hit points. It's a total tracked separately from normal damage.

What the rule should probably say is, "when a creature has taken nonlethal damage equal to its normal maximum hit points +30, it dies". I don't really see a reason to even have this rule, though.

The one about the weapon criticals is just silly. Removing varied criticals from the game just because your group is too lazy to look it up in the book? Haven't they ever heard of writing something like that down on the character sheet? The premade WotC ones even have a spot for it.

It also removes most of what makes the weapons different from one another. A mace (simple weapon) isn't any different from a warhammer (martial weapon) now. You'd have to be an idiot to fight with a scimitar (d6) when a longsword (d8) isn't any worse now. A longsword and a battleaxe are the same thing!

Did your group just have a bad experience with a character using improved critical and an 18+ threat range weapon or something?

It would be very hard to prove to your group that these house rules are broken by raping them, because they're designed to reduce the power of the players. They're just really not exploitable, not in any way I can see at least.
Lina_Inverse
10-17-06, 05:58 AM * All weapons only crit on a natural 20 (abilities and items that affect crit range do not work or are otherwise banned).
* All weapons only deal x2 damage on a crit (base)
(The idea between those two rules is so that players to don't have to look up what a weapon does in the PHB all the time).

This makes numerous weapons useless as there balanced on a higher crit number. In addition its a melee nerf, and thus instantly a bad idea.

* A natural 20 is NOT an automatic hit. Instead (on any d20 roll) a natural 20 counts as a 30 before modifiers (this applys less in combat, but more in skill checks).
* A natural 1 is not an automatic failure/miss. A natural 1 counts as a -10 before modifiers.

There is no noticable diffrence if your players are dealing with approriete enemys. And it makes a fighter with 30+ AC completely immune to an army.

* If the total (after all modifiers) of a d20 roll is less then 0, it is a possible fumble/critical-failure. Generally this means there is a chance you'll break/drop your weapon or whatever you are making will explode. At lower levels this can be annoying but once you get a +10 modifier to something, it is basically impossible to fumble/critically-fail. What happens during a critical fumble is up to the DM to decide. Generally that means something funny happens (Think order of the stick).

Critical fumbles are always bad.

* If a non-leathal damage attack would have put you to -30 or lower (that generally only happens on a crit), you die anyway (basically it means you were beaten into a coma).

Subdual damage is calculated diffrently.

Any glaring problems with these rules? I would like to point out that my group is very relaxed, there is only one rules-lawyer/power-gamer in the group (and he isn't me), and my group is a very large group (varies between 8-12 people).

Cut your group into 2. End of disscussion.
X-Codes
10-17-06, 06:54 AM This makes numerous weapons useless as there balanced on a higher crit number. In addition its a melee nerf, and thus instantly a bad idea.
QFT. Heck, Clerics get a mini-buff since the weapon most of them use is already a 20/x2 weapon (morningstar).

There is no noticable diffrence if your players are dealing with approriete enemys. And it makes a fighter with 30+ AC completely immune to an army.

Critical fumbles are always bad.
Agreed again. Heck, if you come across a case where one creature has an AC 20 points higher than another's attack mod, then you really need to re-examine your encounters.

Cut your group into 2. End of disscussion.
This is the first thing you should look at doing when dealing with a group this large. Heck, you might want to just dismiss about half the people if they aren't even going to bother remembering their weapon's threat range. That goes way beyond lazy.
Thelon Fairblade
10-17-06, 03:00 PM I'm going to have to ditto Lina and OneSidedDice here. No time is lost if the character sheet reads:

"longsword, +8 to hit, 1d8+4 dmg, 19-20/x2" instead of
"longsword, +8 to hit, 1d8+4 dmg"

you can't break it because it is a total nerf of the weapons. Yes, those were the rules in 2e. and... no one took certain weapons because they were mechanically identical or evne mechanically poor choices. The existing concept is even pretty easy to remember ... swords do 19/x2, axes and bows do 20/x3, simple weapons are 20/x2, check your character sheet to be sure.

Heck, I just had a new player join my campaign last night, who hasn't played since 2e (pre-Skills&Powers!). Within an hour, the system was explained, the character sheet he was using was explained, and he was critting with longsword (19/x2) and longbow (20/x3) without asking questions on how to do it. (Other than the expected "Do I just double it, or roll twice?")

the 20/30 and 1/-10 rule I adopted as well... and then just tossed as the situations were ludicrously unbalanced. Should a goblin (+2 to hit) be able to hit the battlesorcerer in defense mode (AC 26) 5% of the time (natural 20)? Yep... battle is dangerous, things happen. and really, even if he *does* hit, the 1d6-1 damage is not a real issue for his 58 hp!
Toloran
10-17-06, 07:11 PM What the rule should probably say is, "when a creature has taken nonlethal damage equal to its normal maximum hit points +30, it dies". I don't really see a reason to even have this rule, though.

That is basically what the rule is, i just phrased it badly in the original post. It's mostly from thinking along the lines of "You just took enough subdual damage to knock you into a coma."

This makes numerous weapons useless as there balanced on a higher crit number. In addition its a melee nerf, and thus instantly a bad idea.

It might be a melee nerf but regardless of it being a nerf, most of the group STILL plays melee classes (Fighters, Monks, Rogues, etc). Wizards are rare, sorcerers a bit more common, clerics are relatively common but only because they make good healers =P Most of our adventures are one-shots, or 2-3 night affairs.

This is the first thing you should look at doing when dealing with a group this large. Heck, you might want to just dismiss about half the people if they aren't even going to bother remembering their weapon's threat range. That goes way beyond lazy.

One, I can't do that because I don't run the group. If I tried to force that idea, then I would probably be the one kicked (since I am one of the newer people in the group). Second, I wouldn't since all the people in my group were my friends long before I started playing D&D with them. Regardless, group size isn't an issue since all of the people in the group who DM have learned to adapt and handle groups that large.
Tequila_Sunrise
10-17-06, 08:08 PM If y'all rotate DMs, each doing a one-shot before passing on the torch, why don't you just run the game you want to when you DM? Okay, so these folks are your friends so they're more likely to put up with the chore of having to remember their crit ranges and the added complexity of natural failure/success. (sarcasm) In fact if they truly are your friends, they'll realize that you're going to the trouble of running a one-shot for them, so they should go thru these 'chores' on principle of friendship.

Oh and when you play, create a melee character that wields a morningstar just so you can point out how incongruous it is for it to work just as well as a longsword.
Inigo Carmine
10-18-06, 12:26 AM * All weapons only crit on a natural 20 (abilities and items that affect crit range do not work or are otherwise banned).
* All weapons only deal x2 damage on a crit (base)
(The idea between those two rules is so that players to don't have to look up what a weapon does in the PHB all the time).

Well, you just kicked Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers and Paladins squarely in the pants. Martial weapons are now just as good as simple weapons; might as well use a morningstar as it's now the best weapon in the game.

* A natural 20 is NOT an automatic hit. Instead (on any d20 roll) a natural 20 counts as a 30 before modifiers (this applys less in combat, but more in skill checks).
* A natural 1 is not an automatic failure/miss. A natural 1 counts as a -10 before modifiers.

Once again, hurts people who have to make skill checks/attack rolls more than it helps. One is unlikely to use a skil check if they can only succeed with a nat 20 (+30 bonus), so this is hardly a benefit. It penalizes characters that have skill mods to the point where a 1 would still be enough, but a -10 will cause them to fail. Also, it shifts the average bonus a d20 gives you from an 10.5 to a 10.0.

This mostly hurts the skill monkeys: rogues and bards. To a lesser extent rangers and monks.

* If the total (after all modifiers) of a d20 roll is less then 0, it is a possible fumble/critical-failure. Generally this means there is a chance you'll break/drop your weapon or whatever you are making will explode. At lower levels this can be annoying but once you get a +10 modifier to something, it is basically impossible to fumble/critically-fail. What happens during a critical fumble is up to the DM to decide. Generally that means something funny happens (Think order of the stick).
Ok, so basically, you don't ever want to have to roll the dice in your group, you want to make other people roll them.

Basically, be a caster. Casters are already overpowered in the straight rules, this makes them even more so.

Use spells that force other people to roll the dice for saving throws while not having to roll attacks rolls or skill checks yourselves. . Their lower HP is less ofa drawback because there's less chance of being critted, and when they are it's typically for less damage anyways. meanwhile, their spells are still damaging opponents just as much.

* If a non-leathal damage attack would have put you to -30 or lower (that generally only happens on a crit), you die anyway (basically it means you were beaten into a coma).
Eh, I see this unlikely to ever come up, so whatever.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Toloran 10-16-06, 09:41 PM	When I first joined my group (several months ago) they already had a number of house rules implimented. As such, I was more or less compelled to use them when I DM'ed for the group (we rotate DMs). I want to convince them to change them back to standard (or at least iron out the problem areas) but the best way it seems to do it would be by abusing said house rules (and then tactfully pointing out how the offical rules would have prevented it). However, I have yet to find a suitible method to break these house rules (there may in fact not be any way to drastically break these rules so in such a case, there would be no problem). Without further ado: * All weapons only crit on a natural 20 (abilities and items that affect crit range do not work or are otherwise banned). * All weapons only deal x2 damage on a crit (base) (The idea between those two rules is so that players to don't have to look up what a weapon does in the PHB all the time). * A natural 20 is NOT an automatic hit. Instead (on any d20 roll) a natural 20 counts as a 30 before modifiers (this applys less in combat, but more in skill checks). * A natural 1 is not an automatic failure/miss. A natural 1 counts as a -10 before modifiers. * If the total (after all modifiers) of a d20 roll is less then 0, it is a possible fumble/critical-failure. Generally this means there is a chance you'll break/drop your weapon or whatever you are making will explode. At lower levels this can be annoying but once you get a +10 modifier to something, it is basically impossible to fumble/critically-fail. What happens during a critical fumble is up to the DM to decide. Generally that means something funny happens (Think order of the stick). * If a non-leathal damage attack would have put you to -30 or lower (that generally only happens on a crit), you die anyway (basically it means you were beaten into a coma). Any glaring problems with these rules? I would like to point out that my group is very relaxed, there is only one rules-lawyer/power-gamer in the group (and he isn't me), and my group is a very large group (varies between 8-12 people).
antsterr 10-17-06, 02:55 AM	If a natural 20 is always a critical and you don't have to confirm it, then I think dropping the critical modifiers is mostly fair. Weapons with with 18-20 or x4 would be watered down by this. If you still have to confirm criticals I think this rule stinks. I play with the rule that you can't critically succeed or fail a skill check. Only attack rolls. In this case the 30 and -10 rules seem fair in order to keep 1st level player from succeeding an attack on a red dragon 1 in 20 times or a 20th level from missing goblin 1/20 times. I like the non-lethal damage rule there. It makes it possible to beat someone or thing to death with your fists if desired. My personal house rule is that once something had dropped to -10 from non-lethal damage any more non-lethal damage becomes lethal, so effectively you have to double their hit points to kill them and it's possible to beat something within an inch or hit-point of it's life. Other then the critical success or failure of a skill check I'd have no problem with any of those house rules.
OneSidedDice 10-17-06, 03:20 AM	I think your group needs to reexamine how nonlethal damage works. It's impossible to be dropped to -30 by it, because it never actually reduces your hit points. It's a total tracked separately from normal damage. What the rule should probably say is, "when a creature has taken nonlethal damage equal to its normal maximum hit points +30, it dies". I don't really see a reason to even have this rule, though. The one about the weapon criticals is just silly. Removing varied criticals from the game just because your group is too lazy to look it up in the book? Haven't they ever heard of writing something like that down on the character sheet? The premade WotC ones even have a spot for it. It also removes most of what makes the weapons different from one another. A mace (simple weapon) isn't any different from a warhammer (martial weapon) now. You'd have to be an idiot to fight with a scimitar (d6) when a longsword (d8) isn't any worse now. A longsword and a battleaxe are the same thing! Did your group just have a bad experience with a character using improved critical and an 18+ threat range weapon or something? It would be very hard to prove to your group that these house rules are broken by raping them, because they're designed to reduce the power of the players. They're just really not exploitable, not in any way I can see at least.
Lina_Inverse 10-17-06, 05:58 AM	* All weapons only crit on a natural 20 (abilities and items that affect crit range do not work or are otherwise banned). * All weapons only deal x2 damage on a crit (base) (The idea between those two rules is so that players to don't have to look up what a weapon does in the PHB all the time). This makes numerous weapons useless as there balanced on a higher crit number. In addition its a melee nerf, and thus instantly a bad idea. * A natural 20 is NOT an automatic hit. Instead (on any d20 roll) a natural 20 counts as a 30 before modifiers (this applys less in combat, but more in skill checks). * A natural 1 is not an automatic failure/miss. A natural 1 counts as a -10 before modifiers. There is no noticable diffrence if your players are dealing with approriete enemys. And it makes a fighter with 30+ AC completely immune to an army. * If the total (after all modifiers) of a d20 roll is less then 0, it is a possible fumble/critical-failure. Generally this means there is a chance you'll break/drop your weapon or whatever you are making will explode. At lower levels this can be annoying but once you get a +10 modifier to something, it is basically impossible to fumble/critically-fail. What happens during a critical fumble is up to the DM to decide. Generally that means something funny happens (Think order of the stick). Critical fumbles are always bad. * If a non-leathal damage attack would have put you to -30 or lower (that generally only happens on a crit), you die anyway (basically it means you were beaten into a coma). Subdual damage is calculated diffrently. Any glaring problems with these rules? I would like to point out that my group is very relaxed, there is only one rules-lawyer/power-gamer in the group (and he isn't me), and my group is a very large group (varies between 8-12 people). Cut your group into 2. End of disscussion.
X-Codes 10-17-06, 06:54 AM	This makes numerous weapons useless as there balanced on a higher crit number. In addition its a melee nerf, and thus instantly a bad idea. QFT. Heck, Clerics get a mini-buff since the weapon most of them use is already a 20/x2 weapon (morningstar). There is no noticable diffrence if your players are dealing with approriete enemys. And it makes a fighter with 30+ AC completely immune to an army. Critical fumbles are always bad. Agreed again. Heck, if you come across a case where one creature has an AC 20 points higher than another's attack mod, then you really need to re-examine your encounters. Cut your group into 2. End of disscussion. This is the first thing you should look at doing when dealing with a group this large. Heck, you might want to just dismiss about half the people if they aren't even going to bother remembering their weapon's threat range. That goes way beyond lazy.
Thelon Fairblade 10-17-06, 03:00 PM	I'm going to have to ditto Lina and OneSidedDice here. No time is lost if the character sheet reads: "longsword, +8 to hit, 1d8+4 dmg, 19-20/x2" instead of "longsword, +8 to hit, 1d8+4 dmg" you can't break it because it is a total nerf of the weapons. Yes, those were the rules in 2e. and... no one took certain weapons because they were mechanically identical or evne mechanically poor choices. The existing concept is even pretty easy to remember ... swords do 19/x2, axes and bows do 20/x3, simple weapons are 20/x2, check your character sheet to be sure. Heck, I just had a new player join my campaign last night, who hasn't played since 2e (pre-Skills&Powers!). Within an hour, the system was explained, the character sheet he was using was explained, and he was critting with longsword (19/x2) and longbow (20/x3) without asking questions on how to do it. (Other than the expected "Do I just double it, or roll twice?") the 20/30 and 1/-10 rule I adopted as well... and then just tossed as the situations were ludicrously unbalanced. Should a goblin (+2 to hit) be able to hit the battlesorcerer in defense mode (AC 26) 5% of the time (natural 20)? Yep... battle is dangerous, things happen. and really, even if he does hit, the 1d6-1 damage is not a real issue for his 58 hp!
Toloran 10-17-06, 07:11 PM	What the rule should probably say is, "when a creature has taken nonlethal damage equal to its normal maximum hit points +30, it dies". I don't really see a reason to even have this rule, though. That is basically what the rule is, i just phrased it badly in the original post. It's mostly from thinking along the lines of "You just took enough subdual damage to knock you into a coma." This makes numerous weapons useless as there balanced on a higher crit number. In addition its a melee nerf, and thus instantly a bad idea. It might be a melee nerf but regardless of it being a nerf, most of the group STILL plays melee classes (Fighters, Monks, Rogues, etc). Wizards are rare, sorcerers a bit more common, clerics are relatively common but only because they make good healers =P Most of our adventures are one-shots, or 2-3 night affairs. This is the first thing you should look at doing when dealing with a group this large. Heck, you might want to just dismiss about half the people if they aren't even going to bother remembering their weapon's threat range. That goes way beyond lazy. One, I can't do that because I don't run the group. If I tried to force that idea, then I would probably be the one kicked (since I am one of the newer people in the group). Second, I wouldn't since all the people in my group were my friends long before I started playing D&D with them. Regardless, group size isn't an issue since all of the people in the group who DM have learned to adapt and handle groups that large.
Tequila_Sunrise 10-17-06, 08:08 PM	If y'all rotate DMs, each doing a one-shot before passing on the torch, why don't you just run the game you want to when you DM? Okay, so these folks are your friends so they're more likely to put up with the chore of having to remember their crit ranges and the added complexity of natural failure/success. (sarcasm) In fact if they truly are your friends, they'll realize that you're going to the trouble of running a one-shot for them, so they should go thru these 'chores' on principle of friendship. Oh and when you play, create a melee character that wields a morningstar just so you can point out how incongruous it is for it to work just as well as a longsword.
Inigo Carmine 10-18-06, 12:26 AM	* All weapons only crit on a natural 20 (abilities and items that affect crit range do not work or are otherwise banned). * All weapons only deal x2 damage on a crit (base) (The idea between those two rules is so that players to don't have to look up what a weapon does in the PHB all the time). Well, you just kicked Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers and Paladins squarely in the pants. Martial weapons are now just as good as simple weapons; might as well use a morningstar as it's now the best weapon in the game. * A natural 20 is NOT an automatic hit. Instead (on any d20 roll) a natural 20 counts as a 30 before modifiers (this applys less in combat, but more in skill checks). * A natural 1 is not an automatic failure/miss. A natural 1 counts as a -10 before modifiers. Once again, hurts people who have to make skill checks/attack rolls more than it helps. One is unlikely to use a skil check if they can only succeed with a nat 20 (+30 bonus), so this is hardly a benefit. It penalizes characters that have skill mods to the point where a 1 would still be enough, but a -10 will cause them to fail. Also, it shifts the average bonus a d20 gives you from an 10.5 to a 10.0. This mostly hurts the skill monkeys: rogues and bards. To a lesser extent rangers and monks. * If the total (after all modifiers) of a d20 roll is less then 0, it is a possible fumble/critical-failure. Generally this means there is a chance you'll break/drop your weapon or whatever you are making will explode. At lower levels this can be annoying but once you get a +10 modifier to something, it is basically impossible to fumble/critically-fail. What happens during a critical fumble is up to the DM to decide. Generally that means something funny happens (Think order of the stick). Ok, so basically, you don't ever want to have to roll the dice in your group, you want to make other people roll them. Basically, be a caster. Casters are already overpowered in the straight rules, this makes them even more so. Use spells that force other people to roll the dice for saving throws while not having to roll attacks rolls or skill checks yourselves. . Their lower HP is less ofa drawback because there's less chance of being critted, and when they are it's typically for less damage anyways. meanwhile, their spells are still damaging opponents just as much. * If a non-leathal damage attack would have put you to -30 or lower (that generally only happens on a crit), you die anyway (basically it means you were beaten into a coma). Eh, I see this unlikely to ever come up, so whatever.