Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darth Sephiroth 10-13-06, 08:42 PM	This is my personal way of dealing with Blind characters. The Blindsight skill I have presented here is similar to the Lycanthropes Control Shape skill mixed with some things from the Spot skill. Yes this is a fantasy based version of the ability with all of this put togather can make things work to make the character usable. The Trait, Feats, and Skill are all meant to work togather and are best used togather. Trait Blind [Trait] Your sight has been lost to you through some means that you can not negate. Prerequisites: You must have some sort of normal vision Benefit:You may take Scent as a feat, you gain the special skill Blindsight as a class skill, and you gain immunity to all gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight. Penalty: You are always treated as if you have the Blinded condition, you automatically fail any spot check not covered under the special rules for the Blindsight skill. All enemies outside of the range of your Blindsight skill are considered to be invisible. Special: If you gain this trait during play, you gain bonus ranks in the Blindsight skill equal to 1/2 the ranks you spent in Spot when you next level up. You take a -2 penalty to all Cha based skill checks with those who know you are blind. Skill Blindsight [Wis, Trained Only, Special Skill] You gain the Blindsight ability in feet at a distance equal to twice your total modifier for this skill and you do not have the Blinded condition in effect when dealing with creatures within this range for penalizing you. If you are deafened this range is halved. This skills use is partially supernatural and if you enter an area where magical or psionic abilities is supressed, the range of this ability is halved. You may make a Blindsight check when a Spot check is called for as long as it would fit under the description of what the Blindsight ability grants and is within the range of the ability through its modifier. If you possess 5 or more ranks in the Listen skill, you gain a +2 Synergy bonus to this skill. Language: Touch [As Languages] You may spend 2 skill points or 2 bonus languages from a high Intelligence to be able to read any language you can normally read by touch. You must actually be able to touch what is being read to be able to read it. Feats Blind Adaptation [General] You have somewhat adapted to being blind. Prerequisites: Blind Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to all Blindsight and Listen checks. Further you gain a +2 bonus to all survival checks for the use of the scent ability if you possess it. Blind Warrior [Fighter] You are adept at sensing things even though your eyes can't/ Prerequisites: Blind, Blindsight 7+ranks, Blind-Fight Benefit: The concealment miss chance of an enemy is reduced by 10% Special: A Fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Cherubaddon 10-13-06, 09:14 PM	Cool idea. I was thinking about playing a blind bard for a while (to try something different from my usual necromancers), and these rules are very good and, even more important, simple to use. Great! P.S.: The Avantiar setting is simply awesome!
Darth Sephiroth 10-13-06, 09:23 PM	Yep Avantiar is my primary setting I'm running at the moment. I'm beginning work on a darker setting though called Dark Trinity which is what this was thought through for. I've unfortunately come to a point where I can't directly post much of my recent things for Avantiar here or on the Avantiar site because a couple of my players has decided to go through it and as such things that fit into adventures can't be posted.
Darth Sephiroth 10-14-06, 02:51 PM	Does anyone else have opinions on this way of doing blindness in the game
Darth Sephiroth 10-25-06, 01:45 PM	:bump:
theblindman 10-25-06, 08:51 PM	I'll take a stab at this. Because that'd be funny. I like the feats and the trait, I really do, but I'm having some trouble with the skill. I generally have some problems with the skill system though, so maybe it's just that I don't like adding further complications to an already overly-complex and logically inconsistent system. The mechanics are fine, and probably logical, and you do a really good job of listing the benefits of blindness (ie immunity to gaze attacks and so on) alongside the downsides.] If I am going to get a chance to constructively criticize, though, I'd recommend doing away with the skill and replacing it with two or three more powerful feats. I'd recommend designing two feats for each basic kind of combatant: blind archer; blind melee-ist; blind mage (spellbook! problem!); and so on. A feat chain similar to two-weapon fighting that slowly built up to complete blindsight (which is a very powerful tool) would be very cool. I'll especially emphasize the need for some blind archery feats (poor archers always get the short end of the stick): a feat that perhaps won't help at melee range, but is very accurate at longer distances. Learning to fight blind is very different from learning to shoot blind. And I think the image of a blind archer is just too cool.
Darth Sephiroth 10-25-06, 10:18 PM	The problem with doing away with the skill portion of it is that you end up burning feats that would be far more helpful in other ways for your character. Most people can afford to give up a few skill ranks to make their character unusual and unique, feats are a much harder choice and a character of one of the classes without much (Sorcerer or other class of the type) would end up seriously hurting for it. The use of skill points with a few feats means that they still sacrifice things for what they get, but still have the feats to get alot of cool abilities while maintaining their disadvantage. I would like to see some of your feats on how to improve this. Blind Archery can be covered by a mix of this and Zen Archery (Use a different modifier for ranged weapons). And the Blind (or Blindfolded) Archer is a cool idea for a character. For a blind archer take the Zen Archery and Blindfight Feats as a Ranger or Fighter (And add Blind Adaptation to your feat choices) with max ranks in Blindsight and your best ability score in Wisdom. With max ranks and Wis as well as the Blind Adaptation feat you can "see" up to 20 ft. (10 ft without sound). The Blind Mage would use the Touch language option (Or the DM could allow them to use Brail (Perhaps with the Decipher Script skill as well).
theblindman 10-26-06, 08:44 AM	The problem with doing away with the skill portion of it is that you end up burning feats that would be far more helpful in other ways for your character. Most people can afford to give up a few skill ranks to make their character unusual and unique, feats are a much harder choice and a character of one of the classes without much (Sorcerer or other class of the type) would end up seriously hurting for it. The use of skill points with a few feats means that they still sacrifice things for what they get, but still have the feats to get alot of cool abilities while maintaining their disadvantage. I absolutely agree. There aren't, generally, a lot of feats to go around, even for fighters, and burning them to get blindsight might not be balanced. Blindsight is a pretty powerful skill though, especially with immunity to certain kinds of attacks and spells. I'll have to think about how I'd like it to balance, but at this point I admit I have no better solution that what you've given. I would like to see some of your feats on how to improve this. I'll think about it tonight, see what I can come up with tomorrow or the next day.
Darth Sephiroth 10-26-06, 03:53 PM	Thanks, I really want this to be easy to use and helpful as well as a great choice for those who want to use this
RobbyPants 10-26-06, 11:00 PM	You might not need the Blindsight skill... It's not as powerful, but a Listen check that beats the person's Move Silently by 20 or more will pin-point it's location. I'd suggest doing things that drastically (but realistically) improve their Listen skill. Give them Skill Focus(Listen), and create a special blind feat called Improved Skill Focus (Listen). Give it SF(Listen) as a prereq, and change the bonus from +3 to +6. You could even make a greater version of the feat the jumps the Listen bonus up to +10. Granted, this is a pontent boost to the listen, but it will be necessary for locating foes. Just my suggestion.
Darth Sephiroth 10-27-06, 03:44 AM	The problem with that is that it is once again very draining on feat reserves for almost all characters to the point where the only thing they can do is listen well. Feats on their own just take to much from a character. The Blindsight skill is effective and is only available to blind characters without another reason for it (Could work with a PrC or feat to grant it first as Cross-Class and then as a Class Skill)
theblindman 10-27-06, 10:54 AM	Okay. I spent a couple hours on this last night, and after a day's reflection it still seems okay in principle, though there are obviously balancing issues since it hasn't been play-tested. Basically it's a reorganization of powers, with some things sacrificed, such as movement. I was toying with the idea of granting two feats with the Blind lable, but again it's just a balance question. I've started thinking about magical items that could cause similar effect as well, but nothing definite yet. This is what I managed to hash out. It's a little more powerful than what you posted before, DS, I'm not sure if you'll like the feel of it. Basically what I'm trying to do is give every kind of combatant a set of two feats that will bring them back in line with regular combatants. They get one for free with the Flaw, and they have to purchase the other one later. A melee-ist takes Blindsense and Blindsight, while an archer would take Blindsense and Blind Archery. I haven't given much thought to how the Blind flaw (I made it a Flaw rather than a Trait) effects other classes though, since this was just meant to be a cursory explanation. Anyway, if I was going to do this without creating a second skill, this is how I envision doing it. BLIND [FLAW] Your sight has been lost to you through some means that you can not negate. Prerequisites: You must have some sort of normal vision Benefit:You may take scent, blindsense, and blindsight as a feat, and you gain immunity to all gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight. You gain one bonus feats. Penalty: You are always treated as if you have the blinded condition. Special: If you gain this flaw during gameplay, you gain your bonus feats the next time you level up. BLIND ARCHER [GENERAL] By concentrating your senses you are able to use a ranged weapon as if you were not blind. Prerequisites: Blind, Blindsense, Weapon Focus, Wis 15+ Benefit: Choose a ranged weapon you Focus in. You may make ranged attacks with this weapon against targets that you can detect with your blindsense as if you could see this person. This attack is not subject to concealement penalties. Normal: Blinded creatures are subject to a concealment penalty when attacking. Special: A fighter may select Blind Archer as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats. BLINDSENSE [GENERAL] Through determined practice you have learned to compensate somewhate for your lack of vision by using your other senses. Prerequisites: Blind, Wis 13+ Benefit: You gain the blindsense ability to a range of 40 ft. Your blindsense is mostly dependent on your hearing, and if you are deaf or otherwise cannot hear your blindsense ceases to function. Blindsense does not help you to detect creatures who are moving silently. The blinded condition still penalizes your movement, and you are still subject to combat penalties for being blinded, as well as penalties to search and Strength- or Dexterity-based skill checks. Normal: A blinded character cannot sense other creatures. Special: A fighter may select Blindsense as one of his fighter bonus feats. You may take this feat multiple times, each time the range of your blindsense increases by 40 ft. BLINDSIGHT [GENERAL] Though you are blind, your other senses are very keen at close range. Prerequisites: Blind, Blindsense, Wis 15+ Benefit: You gain Blindsight out to a range of 10 ft. Your blindsight is mostly dependent on your hearing, and if you are deaf or otherwise cannot hear your blindsight ceases to function. Within the range of your blindsight you are not subject to combat penalties, though skill penalties still apply. The blinded condition still penalizes your movement. Normal: A blinded character is subject to combat penalties in melee. Special: A fighter may select blindsight as one of his fighter bonus feats. You may select this feat multiple times, each time the range of your blindsight increases by 10 ft. IMPROVED BLINDNESS ADAPTATION [GENERAL] You have invested time and energy into training your senses so that you are less dependent on hearing. Prerequisites: Blind, Blindsense, Wis 17+ Benefit: If you are deafened or otherwise cannot hear your blindsense and blindsight range are halved. You are not subject to movement penalties for being blinded. You always detect creatures trying to use Move Silently. You suffer no penalties to Search checks, or to Strength- or Dexterity-based skill checks. Normal: Blindsense and blindsight are negated by deafeness. A blinded character's moevement is halved. Move Silently negates blindsense. Blinded characters take penalties to Search checks, and to Strength- or Dexterity-based skill checks. Special: A fighter may select Improved Blindness Adaptation as one of his fighter bonus feats. Also, I thought I'd port over the Blind-Fight feat for ease of reference, and while I'm at it I'm throwing in the blinded condition and blindsight and blindsense. One of the problems I have with my feat-chains is that they don't mesh very well with Blind-Fight. BLIND-FIGHT [GENERAL] Benefit: In melee, every time you miss because of concealment, you can reroll your miss chance percentile roll one time to see if you actually hit. An invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you in melee. That is, you don’t lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn’t get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible. The invisible attacker’s bonuses do still apply for ranged attacks, however. You take only half the usual penalty to speed for being unable to see. Darkness and poor visibility in general reduces your speed to three-quarters normal, instead of one-half. Normal: Regular attack roll modifiers for invisible attackers trying to hit you apply, and you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC. The speed reduction for darkness and poor visibility also applies. Special: The Blind-Fight feat is of no use against a character who is the subject of a blink spell. A fighter may select Blind-Fight as one of his fighter bonus feats. Blinded: The character cannot see. He takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a –4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them. BLINDSIGHT Some creatures have blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of such senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such sense may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This ability makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can’t see ethereal creatures). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description. • Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight. • Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does). • Blinding attacks do not penalize creatures using blindsight. • Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing. • Blindsight works underwater but not in a vacuum. • Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects. BLINDSENSE Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.
RobbyPants 10-27-06, 11:10 AM	The problem with that is that it is once again very draining on feat reserves for almost all characters to the point where the only thing they can do is listen well. Feats on their own just take to much from a character. The Blindsight skill is effective and is only available to blind characters without another reason for it (Could work with a PrC or feat to grant it first as Cross-Class and then as a Class Skill) Change blindness from a trait to a flaw (which grants a bonus feat). You can grant an additional bonus feat or two if you want due to the severity of the flaw (I've seen other posters make flaws, and they granted three feats for it). The problem with blindness is that that's what it is: a flaw (in the traditional sense of the word). Blind people are definitely at a disadvantage compared to sighted people (asside from in dark rooms ;)). The super Listen check I proposed was designed to help overcome the blindness, but only to a point. If you give them three feats, they could have a +10 to Listen right off the bat, without having to dip into any other feats. Also, making a scent feat would help. It gives them another way to detect foes within range, and they can pinpoint when they're within five feet automatically. BLIND [FLAW] Your sight has been lost to you through some means that you can not negate. Prerequisites: You must have some sort of normal vision Benefit:You may take scent, blindsense, and blindsight as a feat, and you gain immunity to all gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight. You gain one bonus feats. Penalty: You are always treated as if you have the blinded condition. Special: If you gain this flaw during gameplay, you gain your bonus feats the next time you level up. I wouldn't allow the flaw to be taken during gameplay for two reasons: Flaws are only taken at character creation It doesn't make sense that someone would gain bonus feats/abilities due to acquiring a negative condition. They require training to increase these abilities (upping skills and feats). A person born blind will have a much easier time coping than someone who just became blind. It should take time to overcome.
Darth Sephiroth 10-27-06, 06:38 PM	I made it a trait to allow the extra feat as well as the relocation of skill points. Also while being blind gives a major disadvantage, it also grants immunity to gaze attacks as well as similar things.
kadeity 10-27-06, 08:26 PM	some very cool abilities for a blind character. Tremorsense is always good, and we allowed our blind mage to take a feat we called Denowmersight. basically he had permanent detect magic... he saw blackness, but if it was magical he could see it glowing, and tell the distance it was from him ect. we also had a bling ranger who took a feat we called "beast eyes" that let him see through the eyes of his eagle. he would do trick shots to places that he wouldnt ahve been able to see even if he wanst blind because he used the eagle to help him see past obstacles. we also had a blind monk, but he just maxed out listen, and was a grappler. dont even get me started on what we did all the times characters lost limbs :D
theblindman 10-28-06, 04:06 AM	we also had a bling ranger who took a feat we called "beast eyes" that let him see through the eyes of his eagle. he would do trick shots to places that he wouldnt ahve been able to see even if he wanst blind because he used the eagle to help him see past obstacles. That's a really good idea. It would make for some mechanically-interesting gameplay and combat.
Darth Sephiroth 10-28-06, 04:35 AM	Would be very interesting and would require an Animal Companion (Or Wild Cohort) though, perhaps a familiar though
theblindman 10-29-06, 07:39 AM	What are your thoughts on the Feat vs. Skill debate DS? You haven't commented on my post yet. I'm curious about what you think.
Witch 10-29-06, 09:41 AM	The problem with doing away with the skill portion of it is that you end up burning feats that would be far more helpful in other ways for your character. No, I think regaining your sight is far more useful than any other feat. Or, perhaps, have someone cast Remove Blindness on you. You know, it's not that high level a spell. Blind people are at a disadvantage. It's not cool to be blind. It's a handicap. They don't suddenly grow allround vision. Their hearing increases a bit, and they twist around with a stick somewhat. That's it.
RobbyPants 10-29-06, 08:53 PM	Blind people are at a disadvantage. It's not cool to be blind. It's a handicap. They don't suddenly grow allround vision. Their hearing increases a bit, and they twist around with a stick somewhat. That's it. Nicely done! :D One of the things people need to remember when making blind PC mechanics is that at best, all they can do is cope with a bad situation. I've seen too many movies where the blind guy somehow becomes better than all his trained, sighted adveseries.... "Oh crap! I'm losing the fight! Better pluck out my own eyes!!! :evillaugh "
Darth Sephiroth 10-29-06, 08:57 PM	My point is not that it isn't a disadvantage, but that in a game where people can throw fireballs and land unharmed after some massive drops, and dragons fly around, the blind guy with some special abilities isn't that big of a deal.
RobbyPants 10-30-06, 09:15 AM	My point is not that it isn't a disadvantage, but that in a game where people can throw fireballs and land unharmed after some massive drops, and dragons fly around, the blind guy with some special abilities isn't that big of a deal. You do have a point. It is a fantasy game. I guess all I'm saying is that in my game, I wouldn't want lots of supernatural powers to result from something like blindness. About the best thing I would want to do with that would be something like a feat for blindsight 5 foot radius with a high Wis (19+) and blindness as a prereq. I'd also include the listen and scent things I talked about earlier.
Witch 10-30-06, 01:50 PM	My point is not that it isn't a disadvantage, but that in a game where people can throw fireballs and land unharmed after some massive drops, and dragons fly around, the blind guy with some special abilities isn't that big of a deal. Skills are non-supernatural. Feats can be supernatural, class abilities too. Skills aren't.
Darth Sephiroth 10-30-06, 07:02 PM	How about Control Shape, its effects are definately supernatural as is Autohypnosis. Perhaps I should reduce the benefits of the skill, but I've playtested it a bunch so far and haven't had problems with it