House Rule: Aiming [Archive] - Wizards Community

House Rule: Aiming [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Montyhaul
05-24-06, 04:06 PM I've been thinking on the new edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay's combat system - which basically consists of very familiar actions - two move-equivalent or one full round action per turn.

In WFRP, taking the move equivalent action of 'Aim' will confer the equivalent of +2 (+10% in WFRP) to your second action (which would be to make an attack roll).

My question is; why does not such a move-equivalent action exist in our lovely game?!

...Would it be so bad :confused:
Araciel
05-24-06, 10:11 PM it might be so bad...it might not...play test it for a while and tell us
if a first level ranged fighter uses this action to snipe enemies, it might just prove too powerful...if a tenth level fighter uses it in melee, forfeiting all extra attacks for one which is slightly more well-aimed, it might prove useless anyway
Gilgiga of the Hunt
05-25-06, 12:47 AM Araciel is right. It'll be gnarly low leveled and pathetic in the high ones.
What probably is a good idea is somehow have it scale with BAB perhaps the +1 for every attack your BAB gives +1. Which lasts longer power wise, but still isn't up to par with extra attacks.
Warhammer gets away with it becuase more or less any attack that hits is devistaing thanks to its lower HP numbers.
However in D&D monsters have crazy high HPs, so trading accuracy for damage really isn't as fair as it is in WFRP.
Montyhaul
05-25-06, 07:40 AM hmmm, yeah, thank for the feedback guys. I'll give it a whirl and post the results.
RecycledDM
05-25-06, 10:53 AM There are lots of things in D&D that are great at low-level but become less valuable at higher levels (Toughness feat, for example); this doesn't make the idea bad...maybe it just makes low level more survivable!

There might still be instances at mid-to-high levels when aiming could be more useful to a character than multiple attacks...sundering, disarming, grappling, tripping, trying to disrupt your foe's casting, aiming at a beholder's eye, taking a last shot at a fleeing foe, trying to shoot the magic gem out of the idol's forehead, etc.

I am assuming you could aim melee, ranged and natural/unarmed attacks; what about magical attacks? Touch attacks?

Does aiming provoke attacks of opportunity? Maybe only if aiming a ranged weapon?
Montyhaul
05-26-06, 06:07 PM ahhhh... th old AAO! tht'd be a good concession for the benefit, whether a feat or action ; trading an AAO for a 'focussed' attack that grants a +2 bonus.

Perhaps tying the success of the result to a concentration check would be appropriate though?

--Sorry if i'm being a bit fuzzy, but this was more of a 'brainwave' than a well thought out idea - any thoughts (such as those already kindly offered!) are greatly appreciated. :)
RaspK FOG
05-27-06, 09:17 AM Check the following file - it's a feat I have made just for this purpose:
http://www.geocities.com/raspk_fog/tar_shot.pdf
TheSkinnySkeleton
05-29-06, 12:27 PM taking the move equivalent action of 'Aim' will confer the equivalent of +2 to your second action (which would be to make an attack roll)
I agree that while this variant rule would be very strong at lower levels, it would become less and less beneficial as the PCs advanced in level. After all, what's the use of getting a small bonus to hit on one attack when you have multiple attacks at higher levels? Both options would use up a full round action, and a high level character would almost always opt to simply do a normal full attack.

What probably is a good idea is somehow have it scale with BAB perhaps the +1 for every attack your BAB gives +1. Which lasts longer power wise, but still isn't up to par with extra attacks.
Now this would be a more beneficial full round action for a high level PC to make, especially when fighting monsters with incredibly high ACs. (Dragons, anyone?) Of course, this would also be usable by enemies though, meaning that any monster with an attack that does massive damage could almost always strike a devastating hit if it attacked only once per round. I could see this leading to fights that ended very quickly, no matter who won.

My idea: The "Aim" offensive action must be balanced with defensive options. Defensive options currently available to all characters include:
-- Fighting defensively as a standard action. +2 AC, -4 attack rolls. Only one attack allowed.
-- Fighting defensively as a full-round action. +2 AC, -4 attack rolls. If one has multiple attacks available, all of one's attacks are allowed, with the applicable penalties.
-- Total defense. +4 AC, no attacks allowed, counts as a standard action.

The Big Problem: If we were going to give an attacker a bonus to-hit modifier equal to their BAB for the expenditure of a move action to aim, we'd need to give a higher AC bonus to defensive fighting as well, otherwise both Defensive Fighting and Total Defense would be worthless. Thus, a PC should also be able to use a single move action to raise his Armor Class while in combat. However, if perfectly balanced, this would nullify a PC's multiple attacks when fighting defensively as a full-round action, and would make fighting defensively as a standard action impossible.

The only way around this would be to create new defensive actions a PC could take. For the purposes of this post, I will call these Focused Defensive Fighting and Focused Total Defense. These could be allowed as feats, or as actions available to all characters. In my opinion, they should NOT be feats: if all characters weren't allowed a chance to defend against an aimed shot, fighters would walk all over everybody.

Also, when Fighting Defensively, you suffer a -4 penalty on all attacks in the round. I think this should have to be balanced with the Aim rule as well, meaning that when you use an Aim action, you should suffer an AC penalty in that round. It would kind of make sense too: You take a penalty on attacks when Fighting Defensively because you are paying more attention to defense than offense. Therefore, you also take a penalty to defend (AC) when Aiming your attack, because you are paying more attention to offense than defense.

The only forseeable problem would be that this would make the Combat Expertise feat moot. Therefore, a re-working of this feat would also have to be in order. Unfortunately, when one tampers with an already balanced rule-system, this is the sort of thing that happens--other rules get off-balanced too, leading to more and more changes until you have a completely different rules system on your hands.

In any case, below are my variant rules, along with the standard actions listed with PHB page numbers for reference (just in case they're needed). I've also written up examples of usage. I have renamed "Aim" as "Focused Attack." I have in no way play-tested this, as I just thought this up right now, but it sounds like a cool idea. Constructive criticism is welcomed.
_________________________________

Combat Actions: Attacking and Defending

Offense
-- Attack, standard action, pg. 139-140 PHB
-- Full attack, full-round action, pg. 143 PHB
Defense
-- Fighting defensively as a standard action, pg. 140 PHB
-- Total defense, standard action, pg. 142 PHB
-- Fighting defensively as a full-round action, pg. 143 PHB

New Combat Actions:

Focused Attack: (Full-round combat action, usable by all.)
By taking a full round action to focus clearly on your enemy and aim your attack, you can gain some additional bonuses to your attack roll. To do this, choose a number to add to your attack roll that does not exceed your base attack bonus. This number is also subtracted from your Armor Class until the beginning of your next turn. You may only attack once during a round that you use an Focused Attack, even if you are weilding two weapons. The bonus gained from Focused Attack stacks with all other attack bonuses.

Example #1: A 3rd level fighter (BAB+3) with 12 strength (attack +1) would normally have a +4 to hit his enemy. If he used a full-round action to make a Focused Attack, he would have +5, +6, or +7 to hit his enemy, but would suffer a respective -1, -2, or -3 penalty to his Armor Class.
Example #2: A 20th level fighter (BAB +20) with 18 strength (attack +4) would normally have a +24 to hit his enemy (without using any magical items). If he used a full-round action to make a Focused Attack, he would have an attack bonus of his choice between +25 and +44, but would suffer a respective Armor Class penalty between -1 and -20.

Focused Defensive Fighting: (Full-round combat action, usable by all.)
By taking a full round action to focus clearly on defensive fighting, you can gain some bonuses to your Armor Class. To do this, choose a number to add to your Armor Class that does not exceed your base attack bonus. This number is also subtracted from your attack roll during this round. The use of Focused Defensive Fighting allows only one attack per round, even if you are weilding two weapons. The Armor Class bonus is a dodge bonus.

Example: A 5th level fighter (BAB +5) has an Armor Class of 15. If he uses a full-round action for Focused Defensive Fighting, the fighter may take a -1 to -5 penalty to his attack roll, in exchange for a +1 to +5 AC, respectively. However, he may only attack once.

Focused Total Defense: (Full-round combat action, usable by all.)
By forgoing all of your actions to focus solely on defending yourself from harm, you can gain additional bonuses to your Armor Class. Doing so is a full-round action. You may add your entire base attack bonus to your Armor Class as a dodge bonus. If you are still hit in combat, you may make a Reflex saving throw to take half damage. The save DC is equal to the attacker's modified attack roll. Rogues and other characters with the Evasion special ability take no damage with a successful saving throw.

Example: A 5th level fighter (BAB +5) has an Armor Class of 15. If he uses a full-round action for Focused Total Defense, his AC rises to 20. If he is still hit by an enemy's attack, he may make a Reflex saving throw to take half damage.

Combat Expertise: Feat
This feat follows the same rules described on page 92 of the PHB, except that the dodge bonuses and attack penalties stack with those from Focused Defensive Fighting.

OPTIONAL FEAT: Focused Combat
You have learned how to focus your mind during combat, and are able to fight and defend yourself better.
Benefit--By taking this feat, you are able to use the following combat actions: Focused Attack, Focused Defensive Fighting, and Focused Total Defense.
(This optional feat is for DMs who don't like the idea of giving all characters the ability to use Focused Attack, Focused Defensive Fighting, and Focused Total Defense. Using this feat will make melee fighters MUCH more powerful, while allowing all players the use of the above options makes all combat more dynamic. Another option would be to make all of the above actions fighter feats.)
_________________________________

I'm pretty sure that these variant rules would lead to balanced combats. However, I assume that they would still change combat somewhat. Combats would probably take longer to complete, as both players and DMs focused more on battlefield tactics. Surrenders and captures would happen more often, as characters taking a Focused Total Defense action would be more likely to survive a dangerous encounter round after round. Melee fighters would face grave danger if they used their Focused Attack with the maximum bonus, but would be more easily able to deal a lethal blow to an enemy with low hit points. Combat would become more of a guessing and strategy game between opponents, each trying to figure out how much defense or offense he is willing to sacrifice for the win.

Probably the biggest difference would be in those high-level combats--the ones that would never have seen the use of the previously described "Aim" ability. Imagine a fight with a huge dragon...after 2 hours of slowly beating the wyrm down, the PCs have the dragon near death. Yet the dragon is still able to escape the PCs blows by focusing his defense. So, the PCs are forced to focus their attacks, thereby lowering their defense...and that's when the dragon attacks.

Ideas? Suggestions? Criticism?
Thelon Fairblade
05-30-06, 02:22 PM There are some substitution levels in the PHB2 that trade extra attacks for a single more devastating (double damage) attack. For the monk, it is decisve blow (IIRC), which is -2 when you have 1 attack anyway, -1 when you have 2 attacks, and -0 when you have three attacks...

If the bonus scaled something like that, it would work, but as the previous poster indicates it unbalances the existing Defensive techniques.
Cheza
06-01-06, 06:25 PM I don't understand you. It's pretty much the same like charge. Anybody against it, 'cause it's more powerful for low-level characters - I don't think so!!!

Aiming could be a ranged charge with the same effects. Use a full-round action to get one shot with a +2 bonus on attack. Because of your focused view, you get a -2 malus on your AC until your next round.

I would change it more drastically:
When you use your full-attack action you can forego an attack to get an additional +2 bonus on your next attack in this round.

Sounds the same? But it isn't. You can "skip" 4 of 5 attacks to get a +8 bonus on your last attack. Now it's more or less like "aid another" just by yourself. It has a natural cap (your attacks per round).

In my game, charge gives a bonus dependant to your speed per round. So it has a natural cap, that might increase with your level.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Montyhaul 05-24-06, 04:06 PM	I've been thinking on the new edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay's combat system - which basically consists of very familiar actions - two move-equivalent or one full round action per turn. In WFRP, taking the move equivalent action of 'Aim' will confer the equivalent of +2 (+10% in WFRP) to your second action (which would be to make an attack roll). My question is; why does not such a move-equivalent action exist in our lovely game?! ...Would it be so bad :confused:
Araciel 05-24-06, 10:11 PM	it might be so bad...it might not...play test it for a while and tell us if a first level ranged fighter uses this action to snipe enemies, it might just prove too powerful...if a tenth level fighter uses it in melee, forfeiting all extra attacks for one which is slightly more well-aimed, it might prove useless anyway
Gilgiga of the Hunt 05-25-06, 12:47 AM	Araciel is right. It'll be gnarly low leveled and pathetic in the high ones. What probably is a good idea is somehow have it scale with BAB perhaps the +1 for every attack your BAB gives +1. Which lasts longer power wise, but still isn't up to par with extra attacks. Warhammer gets away with it becuase more or less any attack that hits is devistaing thanks to its lower HP numbers. However in D&D monsters have crazy high HPs, so trading accuracy for damage really isn't as fair as it is in WFRP.
Montyhaul 05-25-06, 07:40 AM	hmmm, yeah, thank for the feedback guys. I'll give it a whirl and post the results.
RecycledDM 05-25-06, 10:53 AM	There are lots of things in D&D that are great at low-level but become less valuable at higher levels (Toughness feat, for example); this doesn't make the idea bad...maybe it just makes low level more survivable! There might still be instances at mid-to-high levels when aiming could be more useful to a character than multiple attacks...sundering, disarming, grappling, tripping, trying to disrupt your foe's casting, aiming at a beholder's eye, taking a last shot at a fleeing foe, trying to shoot the magic gem out of the idol's forehead, etc. I am assuming you could aim melee, ranged and natural/unarmed attacks; what about magical attacks? Touch attacks? Does aiming provoke attacks of opportunity? Maybe only if aiming a ranged weapon?
Montyhaul 05-26-06, 06:07 PM	ahhhh... th old AAO! tht'd be a good concession for the benefit, whether a feat or action ; trading an AAO for a 'focussed' attack that grants a +2 bonus. Perhaps tying the success of the result to a concentration check would be appropriate though? --Sorry if i'm being a bit fuzzy, but this was more of a 'brainwave' than a well thought out idea - any thoughts (such as those already kindly offered!) are greatly appreciated. :)
RaspK FOG 05-27-06, 09:17 AM	Check the following file - it's a feat I have made just for this purpose: http://www.geocities.com/raspk_fog/tar_shot.pdf
TheSkinnySkeleton 05-29-06, 12:27 PM	taking the move equivalent action of 'Aim' will confer the equivalent of +2 to your second action (which would be to make an attack roll) I agree that while this variant rule would be very strong at lower levels, it would become less and less beneficial as the PCs advanced in level. After all, what's the use of getting a small bonus to hit on one attack when you have multiple attacks at higher levels? Both options would use up a full round action, and a high level character would almost always opt to simply do a normal full attack. What probably is a good idea is somehow have it scale with BAB perhaps the +1 for every attack your BAB gives +1. Which lasts longer power wise, but still isn't up to par with extra attacks. Now this would be a more beneficial full round action for a high level PC to make, especially when fighting monsters with incredibly high ACs. (Dragons, anyone?) Of course, this would also be usable by enemies though, meaning that any monster with an attack that does massive damage could almost always strike a devastating hit if it attacked only once per round. I could see this leading to fights that ended very quickly, no matter who won. My idea: The "Aim" offensive action must be balanced with defensive options. Defensive options currently available to all characters include: -- Fighting defensively as a standard action. +2 AC, -4 attack rolls. Only one attack allowed. -- Fighting defensively as a full-round action. +2 AC, -4 attack rolls. If one has multiple attacks available, all of one's attacks are allowed, with the applicable penalties. -- Total defense. +4 AC, no attacks allowed, counts as a standard action. The Big Problem: If we were going to give an attacker a bonus to-hit modifier equal to their BAB for the expenditure of a move action to aim, we'd need to give a higher AC bonus to defensive fighting as well, otherwise both Defensive Fighting and Total Defense would be worthless. Thus, a PC should also be able to use a single move action to raise his Armor Class while in combat. However, if perfectly balanced, this would nullify a PC's multiple attacks when fighting defensively as a full-round action, and would make fighting defensively as a standard action impossible. The only way around this would be to create new defensive actions a PC could take. For the purposes of this post, I will call these Focused Defensive Fighting and Focused Total Defense. These could be allowed as feats, or as actions available to all characters. In my opinion, they should NOT be feats: if all characters weren't allowed a chance to defend against an aimed shot, fighters would walk all over everybody. Also, when Fighting Defensively, you suffer a -4 penalty on all attacks in the round. I think this should have to be balanced with the Aim rule as well, meaning that when you use an Aim action, you should suffer an AC penalty in that round. It would kind of make sense too: You take a penalty on attacks when Fighting Defensively because you are paying more attention to defense than offense. Therefore, you also take a penalty to defend (AC) when Aiming your attack, because you are paying more attention to offense than defense. The only forseeable problem would be that this would make the Combat Expertise feat moot. Therefore, a re-working of this feat would also have to be in order. Unfortunately, when one tampers with an already balanced rule-system, this is the sort of thing that happens--other rules get off-balanced too, leading to more and more changes until you have a completely different rules system on your hands. In any case, below are my variant rules, along with the standard actions listed with PHB page numbers for reference (just in case they're needed). I've also written up examples of usage. I have renamed "Aim" as "Focused Attack." I have in no way play-tested this, as I just thought this up right now, but it sounds like a cool idea. Constructive criticism is welcomed. _________________________________ Combat Actions: Attacking and Defending Offense -- Attack, standard action, pg. 139-140 PHB -- Full attack, full-round action, pg. 143 PHB Defense -- Fighting defensively as a standard action, pg. 140 PHB -- Total defense, standard action, pg. 142 PHB -- Fighting defensively as a full-round action, pg. 143 PHB New Combat Actions: Focused Attack: (Full-round combat action, usable by all.) By taking a full round action to focus clearly on your enemy and aim your attack, you can gain some additional bonuses to your attack roll. To do this, choose a number to add to your attack roll that does not exceed your base attack bonus. This number is also subtracted from your Armor Class until the beginning of your next turn. You may only attack once during a round that you use an Focused Attack, even if you are weilding two weapons. The bonus gained from Focused Attack stacks with all other attack bonuses. Example #1: A 3rd level fighter (BAB+3) with 12 strength (attack +1) would normally have a +4 to hit his enemy. If he used a full-round action to make a Focused Attack, he would have +5, +6, or +7 to hit his enemy, but would suffer a respective -1, -2, or -3 penalty to his Armor Class. Example #2: A 20th level fighter (BAB +20) with 18 strength (attack +4) would normally have a +24 to hit his enemy (without using any magical items). If he used a full-round action to make a Focused Attack, he would have an attack bonus of his choice between +25 and +44, but would suffer a respective Armor Class penalty between -1 and -20. Focused Defensive Fighting: (Full-round combat action, usable by all.) By taking a full round action to focus clearly on defensive fighting, you can gain some bonuses to your Armor Class. To do this, choose a number to add to your Armor Class that does not exceed your base attack bonus. This number is also subtracted from your attack roll during this round. The use of Focused Defensive Fighting allows only one attack per round, even if you are weilding two weapons. The Armor Class bonus is a dodge bonus. Example: A 5th level fighter (BAB +5) has an Armor Class of 15. If he uses a full-round action for Focused Defensive Fighting, the fighter may take a -1 to -5 penalty to his attack roll, in exchange for a +1 to +5 AC, respectively. However, he may only attack once. Focused Total Defense: (Full-round combat action, usable by all.) By forgoing all of your actions to focus solely on defending yourself from harm, you can gain additional bonuses to your Armor Class. Doing so is a full-round action. You may add your entire base attack bonus to your Armor Class as a dodge bonus. If you are still hit in combat, you may make a Reflex saving throw to take half damage. The save DC is equal to the attacker's modified attack roll. Rogues and other characters with the Evasion special ability take no damage with a successful saving throw. Example: A 5th level fighter (BAB +5) has an Armor Class of 15. If he uses a full-round action for Focused Total Defense, his AC rises to 20. If he is still hit by an enemy's attack, he may make a Reflex saving throw to take half damage. Combat Expertise: Feat This feat follows the same rules described on page 92 of the PHB, except that the dodge bonuses and attack penalties stack with those from Focused Defensive Fighting. OPTIONAL FEAT: Focused Combat You have learned how to focus your mind during combat, and are able to fight and defend yourself better. Benefit--By taking this feat, you are able to use the following combat actions: Focused Attack, Focused Defensive Fighting, and Focused Total Defense. (This optional feat is for DMs who don't like the idea of giving all characters the ability to use Focused Attack, Focused Defensive Fighting, and Focused Total Defense. Using this feat will make melee fighters MUCH more powerful, while allowing all players the use of the above options makes all combat more dynamic. Another option would be to make all of the above actions fighter feats.) _________________________________ I'm pretty sure that these variant rules would lead to balanced combats. However, I assume that they would still change combat somewhat. Combats would probably take longer to complete, as both players and DMs focused more on battlefield tactics. Surrenders and captures would happen more often, as characters taking a Focused Total Defense action would be more likely to survive a dangerous encounter round after round. Melee fighters would face grave danger if they used their Focused Attack with the maximum bonus, but would be more easily able to deal a lethal blow to an enemy with low hit points. Combat would become more of a guessing and strategy game between opponents, each trying to figure out how much defense or offense he is willing to sacrifice for the win. Probably the biggest difference would be in those high-level combats--the ones that would never have seen the use of the previously described "Aim" ability. Imagine a fight with a huge dragon...after 2 hours of slowly beating the wyrm down, the PCs have the dragon near death. Yet the dragon is still able to escape the PCs blows by focusing his defense. So, the PCs are forced to focus their attacks, thereby lowering their defense...and that's when the dragon attacks. Ideas? Suggestions? Criticism?
Thelon Fairblade 05-30-06, 02:22 PM	There are some substitution levels in the PHB2 that trade extra attacks for a single more devastating (double damage) attack. For the monk, it is decisve blow (IIRC), which is -2 when you have 1 attack anyway, -1 when you have 2 attacks, and -0 when you have three attacks... If the bonus scaled something like that, it would work, but as the previous poster indicates it unbalances the existing Defensive techniques.
Cheza 06-01-06, 06:25 PM	I don't understand you. It's pretty much the same like charge. Anybody against it, 'cause it's more powerful for low-level characters - I don't think so!!! Aiming could be a ranged charge with the same effects. Use a full-round action to get one shot with a +2 bonus on attack. Because of your focused view, you get a -2 malus on your AC until your next round. I would change it more drastically: When you use your full-attack action you can forego an attack to get an additional +2 bonus on your next attack in this round. Sounds the same? But it isn't. You can "skip" 4 of 5 attacks to get a +8 bonus on your last attack. Now it's more or less like "aid another" just by yourself. It has a natural cap (your attacks per round). In my game, charge gives a bonus dependant to your speed per round. So it has a natural cap, that might increase with your level.