House Rule: Force Effects and DR [Archive] - Wizards Community

House Rule: Force Effects and DR [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Avihs
12-30-06, 10:35 PM First... I'd would just like to say I've had it up to here with spells with "force effects"... *levels hand at brow height* :rant:

Of all of the energy based spells, force based spells have no real foil, beyond the generic foils created by spell resistance or antimagic effects. In the case of magic missiles, there is the shield spell. Otherwise, there is no resistance vs. force, no immunity to force effects... nadda. In fact, force based spells aren't even concidered an "energy type"... :uh-huh:

Where I see this really coming to be a problem is the "Orb" line of spells, allowing a ranged-touch attack, and bypassing SR. In the case of the elemental spells, this isn't that big of a deal, they still have resistances that can keep them in check. Sonic based spells, have also got silence to help keep them in check... Ok, now the "Orb of Force" spells, what's left to keep them in check? Absolutely nothing.

OK... now for an idea... :tie:

What about force based spells being affected by DR. The exception to this would be DR: XX/magic. As a magical spell, force based spells would still be able to overcome this type of DR.

The reasoning for this comes from the a basic precept of "force" as having a kintetic effect upon another solid object. Much like a person being struck by a solid weapon. Other examples of this kind of interaction; Wall of Force, Force Cage or Telekinetic Sphere create a solid barrier either preventing an obect from advanceing beyond it or containing a creature.

Thoughts? Ideas?
Millenia
12-30-06, 11:10 PM Seems reasonable, though I should note that there aren't that many offensive Force abilities... There's, like... Magic Missile, and Concussion Blast (psionics, if you didn't know), not to count Bigsby's Hand spells... though there are those Orb spells that you mentioned. ^^;;a
Avihs
12-31-06, 12:45 AM Seems reasonable, though I should note that there aren't that many offensive Force abilities... There's, like... Magic Missile, and Concussion Blast (psionics, if you didn't know), not to count Bigsby's Hand spells... though there are those Orb spells that you mentioned. ^^;;aLets not forget Blade Barrier, Explosive Runes, Mordenkainen's Sword and Spiritual Weapon from the PHB. Also, to add to that list... Battering Ram, Blast of Force, Chain Missile, Death Throes, Force Claw, Force Missiles, Howling Chain, Many Jaws, Persistant Blade, Shard Storm, Spiritjaws, Sword of Deception, Thunderlance, Vortex of Teeth. And those are just what is found in the Spell Compendium. God only knows what else can be scrounged up throughout the remainder of the books to be had out there.

I think another thing that is rather irksome about "force" based spells, is an additional effect they all posses... The ability to effect incorporeal creatures unhindered, without a need to be modified by the Transdimensional Spell metamagic feat. Between that, and a decided lack of resistances/immunities against "force" spells, this class of spells could be concidered "too good".
DarkRhystar
12-31-06, 01:00 AM Ok, now the "Orb of Force" spells, what's left to keep them in check?

A high touch AC.
Avihs
12-31-06, 01:08 AM Just as an afterthought to my above post...

Many of these "force" based offensive spells also have some nice croud control secondary effects; stun, trip/prone, entangle, bullrush. Wich again, makes this class of spells very desirable without the level of resistability that the more traditional energy types have.
Avihs
12-31-06, 01:23 AM A high touch AC.True... But then that is also the same for the other "Orb" based spells.

One of the things that has fueled my evening rant on force based spells is with my current D&D group. Because force based spells don't have a weakness due to resistance/immunity, the 3 arcane casters in the party are VERY force based.
Morwen
12-31-06, 02:40 AM There are a few monsters out there with immunity to force spells/effects. If your group is highly force-based, you could spring those on them :)

The only one I remember right now is the Force Dragon (Epic Level Handbook). The Wyrmling is CR 13, while the Very Young is CR 19. Give me until after New Year's, and I should be able to give you a more comprehensive list.
Fireclave
12-31-06, 05:05 AM Most force spells that deal damage tend to lag behind spells of the same level. At least when the spell first becomes available to the caster. Take Fireball and Chain Missle for example.

Fireball gets 1d6 damage per caster to a max of 10d6. Chain Missle on the other hand get 1d4+1 damage per every two caster levels. When Mage A is dropping 10d6 fireballs and decimating everything in a 20ft radius, Mage B is dealing half that and paltry 1d4+1 damage to bystanders. Even at high levels, Fireball and Chain Missle come out about even. While they can do similiar damage to their primary target, Fireball has the advantage of a more powerful AoE effect, while Chain Missle never misses.

I've noticed similiar trends with other force spells. Though I admit, I never picked through them all with a fine-tooth comb. I'll have to do that later.

I think another thing that is rather irksome about "force" based spells, is an additional effect they all posses... The ability to effect incorporeal creatures unhindered, without a need to be modified by the Transdimensional Spell metamagic feat. Between that, and a decided lack of resistances/immunities against "force" spells, this class of spells could be concidered "too good".
I think the reason for this is because incorporal creatures are either made up of, or are composed of a substance similar to, force energy.

This is just my personal interpretation here, but I consider force energy to be pure magic "stuff." Magic made semi-solid, semi-stable, without any other energy to modify it. If magic energies were your three states of matter (solid, liquid, gas), force would be your plasma (the 4th state of matter). Even if a force spell produces something that acts just like a physical solide (such as Wall of Force and Thunder Lance), the force is still magic, not a solid. Thus, I don't think that it would be appropriate to apply DR to force. But this is just my personal interpretation of how force seems to work in D&D. YMMV.

Ok, now the "Orb of Force" spells, what's left to keep them in check? Absolutely nothing.
But Orb of Force does have two down sides. For one, unlike the other orb spells, it has no secondary effect. And two, it's damage maxes out at 10d6, while the other orbs maxes out at 15d6 (or 15d4 for Orb of Sound).

One of the things that has fueled my evening rant on force based spells is with my current D&D group. Because force based spells don't have a weakness due to resistance/immunity, the 3 arcane casters in the party are VERY force based.
Forceward, 4th level spell, Spell Compendium, page 98. Basically, its does to force effects what Silence does to sonic effects ;)
Tyler Do'Urden
12-31-06, 08:33 AM Ok, now the "Orb of Force" spells, what's left to keep them in check? Absolutely nothing.Except maybe a high touch AC.

If it really bothers you, why not just write a spell or two that grants "force resistance"?

Forceward, 4th level spell, Spell Compendium, page 98. Basically, its does to force effects what Silence does to sonic effects ;)Oh, how 'bout that.
Skyy
01-03-07, 08:45 PM Seems reasonable, though I should note that there aren't that many offensive Force abilities... There's, like... Magic Missile, and Concussion Blast (psionics, if you didn't know), not to count Bigsby's Hand spells... though there are those Orb spells that you mentioned. ^^;;a

Ok, sorry, off topic, I read the first two posts and I had to intervene for a serious transgression was commited.

It's the BIGBY spell line, not friggin bigsby, trust me, it bothers me everytime someone spells it wrong, now, why is this lunitic ranting you ask yourself? I'll tell you why, Bigby is my last name:eek: :rofl:
:bounce:
Millenia
01-07-07, 01:39 AM Ok, sorry, off topic, I read the first two posts and I had to intervene for a serious transgression was commited.

It's the BIGBY spell line, not friggin bigsby, trust me, it bothers me everytime someone spells it wrong, now, why is this lunitic ranting you ask yourself? I'll tell you why, Bigby is my last name:eek: :rofl:
:bounce:
Ah, sorry. XDD

Lets not forget Blade Barrier, Explosive Runes, Mordenkainen's Sword and Spiritual Weapon from the PHB. Also, to add to that list... Battering Ram, Blast of Force, Chain Missile, Death Throes, Force Claw, Force Missiles, Howling Chain, Many Jaws, Persistant Blade, Shard Storm, Spiritjaws, Sword of Deception, Thunderlance, Vortex of Teeth. And those are just what is found in the Spell Compendium. God only knows what else can be scrounged up throughout the remainder of the books to be had out there.
True... Sorry, I don't have the Spell Compedium, so I didn't see those. ^^;;a
IceFractal
01-07-07, 09:02 PM If you did apply DR, you should bump up the damage to match other spells of that level - currently, force effects have lower damage to compensate for being less resistable.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Avihs 12-30-06, 10:35 PM	First... I'd would just like to say I've had it up to here with spells with "force effects"... levels hand at brow height :rant: Of all of the energy based spells, force based spells have no real foil, beyond the generic foils created by spell resistance or antimagic effects. In the case of magic missiles, there is the shield spell. Otherwise, there is no resistance vs. force, no immunity to force effects... nadda. In fact, force based spells aren't even concidered an "energy type"... :uh-huh: Where I see this really coming to be a problem is the "Orb" line of spells, allowing a ranged-touch attack, and bypassing SR. In the case of the elemental spells, this isn't that big of a deal, they still have resistances that can keep them in check. Sonic based spells, have also got silence to help keep them in check... Ok, now the "Orb of Force" spells, what's left to keep them in check? Absolutely nothing. OK... now for an idea... :tie: What about force based spells being affected by DR. The exception to this would be DR: XX/magic. As a magical spell, force based spells would still be able to overcome this type of DR. The reasoning for this comes from the a basic precept of "force" as having a kintetic effect upon another solid object. Much like a person being struck by a solid weapon. Other examples of this kind of interaction; Wall of Force, Force Cage or Telekinetic Sphere create a solid barrier either preventing an obect from advanceing beyond it or containing a creature. Thoughts? Ideas?
Millenia 12-30-06, 11:10 PM	Seems reasonable, though I should note that there aren't that many offensive Force abilities... There's, like... Magic Missile, and Concussion Blast (psionics, if you didn't know), not to count Bigsby's Hand spells... though there are those Orb spells that you mentioned. ^^;;a
Avihs 12-31-06, 12:45 AM	Seems reasonable, though I should note that there aren't that many offensive Force abilities... There's, like... Magic Missile, and Concussion Blast (psionics, if you didn't know), not to count Bigsby's Hand spells... though there are those Orb spells that you mentioned. ^^;;aLets not forget Blade Barrier, Explosive Runes, Mordenkainen's Sword and Spiritual Weapon from the PHB. Also, to add to that list... Battering Ram, Blast of Force, Chain Missile, Death Throes, Force Claw, Force Missiles, Howling Chain, Many Jaws, Persistant Blade, Shard Storm, Spiritjaws, Sword of Deception, Thunderlance, Vortex of Teeth. And those are just what is found in the Spell Compendium. God only knows what else can be scrounged up throughout the remainder of the books to be had out there. I think another thing that is rather irksome about "force" based spells, is an additional effect they all posses... The ability to effect incorporeal creatures unhindered, without a need to be modified by the Transdimensional Spell metamagic feat. Between that, and a decided lack of resistances/immunities against "force" spells, this class of spells could be concidered "too good".
DarkRhystar 12-31-06, 01:00 AM	Ok, now the "Orb of Force" spells, what's left to keep them in check? A high touch AC.
Avihs 12-31-06, 01:08 AM	Just as an afterthought to my above post... Many of these "force" based offensive spells also have some nice croud control secondary effects; stun, trip/prone, entangle, bullrush. Wich again, makes this class of spells very desirable without the level of resistability that the more traditional energy types have.
Avihs 12-31-06, 01:23 AM	A high touch AC.True... But then that is also the same for the other "Orb" based spells. One of the things that has fueled my evening rant on force based spells is with my current D&D group. Because force based spells don't have a weakness due to resistance/immunity, the 3 arcane casters in the party are VERY force based.
Morwen 12-31-06, 02:40 AM	There are a few monsters out there with immunity to force spells/effects. If your group is highly force-based, you could spring those on them :) The only one I remember right now is the Force Dragon (Epic Level Handbook). The Wyrmling is CR 13, while the Very Young is CR 19. Give me until after New Year's, and I should be able to give you a more comprehensive list.
Fireclave 12-31-06, 05:05 AM	Most force spells that deal damage tend to lag behind spells of the same level. At least when the spell first becomes available to the caster. Take Fireball and Chain Missle for example. Fireball gets 1d6 damage per caster to a max of 10d6. Chain Missle on the other hand get 1d4+1 damage per every two caster levels. When Mage A is dropping 10d6 fireballs and decimating everything in a 20ft radius, Mage B is dealing half that and paltry 1d4+1 damage to bystanders. Even at high levels, Fireball and Chain Missle come out about even. While they can do similiar damage to their primary target, Fireball has the advantage of a more powerful AoE effect, while Chain Missle never misses. I've noticed similiar trends with other force spells. Though I admit, I never picked through them all with a fine-tooth comb. I'll have to do that later. I think another thing that is rather irksome about "force" based spells, is an additional effect they all posses... The ability to effect incorporeal creatures unhindered, without a need to be modified by the Transdimensional Spell metamagic feat. Between that, and a decided lack of resistances/immunities against "force" spells, this class of spells could be concidered "too good". I think the reason for this is because incorporal creatures are either made up of, or are composed of a substance similar to, force energy. This is just my personal interpretation here, but I consider force energy to be pure magic "stuff." Magic made semi-solid, semi-stable, without any other energy to modify it. If magic energies were your three states of matter (solid, liquid, gas), force would be your plasma (the 4th state of matter). Even if a force spell produces something that acts just like a physical solide (such as Wall of Force and Thunder Lance), the force is still magic, not a solid. Thus, I don't think that it would be appropriate to apply DR to force. But this is just my personal interpretation of how force seems to work in D&D. YMMV. Ok, now the "Orb of Force" spells, what's left to keep them in check? Absolutely nothing. But Orb of Force does have two down sides. For one, unlike the other orb spells, it has no secondary effect. And two, it's damage maxes out at 10d6, while the other orbs maxes out at 15d6 (or 15d4 for Orb of Sound). One of the things that has fueled my evening rant on force based spells is with my current D&D group. Because force based spells don't have a weakness due to resistance/immunity, the 3 arcane casters in the party are VERY force based. Forceward, 4th level spell, Spell Compendium, page 98. Basically, its does to force effects what Silence does to sonic effects ;)
Tyler Do'Urden 12-31-06, 08:33 AM	Ok, now the "Orb of Force" spells, what's left to keep them in check? Absolutely nothing.Except maybe a high touch AC. If it really bothers you, why not just write a spell or two that grants "force resistance"? Forceward, 4th level spell, Spell Compendium, page 98. Basically, its does to force effects what Silence does to sonic effects ;)Oh, how 'bout that.
Skyy 01-03-07, 08:45 PM	Seems reasonable, though I should note that there aren't that many offensive Force abilities... There's, like... Magic Missile, and Concussion Blast (psionics, if you didn't know), not to count Bigsby's Hand spells... though there are those Orb spells that you mentioned. ^^;;a Ok, sorry, off topic, I read the first two posts and I had to intervene for a serious transgression was commited. It's the BIGBY spell line, not friggin bigsby, trust me, it bothers me everytime someone spells it wrong, now, why is this lunitic ranting you ask yourself? I'll tell you why, Bigby is my last name:eek: :rofl: :bounce:
Millenia 01-07-07, 01:39 AM	Ok, sorry, off topic, I read the first two posts and I had to intervene for a serious transgression was commited. It's the BIGBY spell line, not friggin bigsby, trust me, it bothers me everytime someone spells it wrong, now, why is this lunitic ranting you ask yourself? I'll tell you why, Bigby is my last name:eek: :rofl: :bounce: Ah, sorry. XDD Lets not forget Blade Barrier, Explosive Runes, Mordenkainen's Sword and Spiritual Weapon from the PHB. Also, to add to that list... Battering Ram, Blast of Force, Chain Missile, Death Throes, Force Claw, Force Missiles, Howling Chain, Many Jaws, Persistant Blade, Shard Storm, Spiritjaws, Sword of Deception, Thunderlance, Vortex of Teeth. And those are just what is found in the Spell Compendium. God only knows what else can be scrounged up throughout the remainder of the books to be had out there. True... Sorry, I don't have the Spell Compedium, so I didn't see those. ^^;;a
IceFractal 01-07-07, 09:02 PM	If you did apply DR, you should bump up the damage to match other spells of that level - currently, force effects have lower damage to compensate for being less resistable.