House Rule: Half-Elves [Archive] - Wizards Community

House Rule: Half-Elves [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
camulus411
01-06-06, 07:02 PM Myself and everyone i play with feel that half-elves are underpowered, i decided to try and fix it. I made some "small changes" to them.

Note: If this is the wrong forum i'm sorry, i thought it would be better to put in here in the house rules forum then races.

Removed: +2 racial bonus on diplomacy and Gather information checks.

Added: +2 Charisma and -2 Constitution.

Reasoning: In the Half-Elf description it describes them as being very personable, so i thought that a charisma bonus would be suitable. To counteract the +2 Cha. bonus, i thought about all of the other abilities, and figured that since elves are frail, this could be passed down to the child.

I would appreciate any opinions on my change, especially on balance, and any changes i could make to make it more balanced.

Thanks everyone.
Sae Cael Oanar
01-06-06, 07:29 PM alot of people disagree with bonuses to mental stats with no la. this makes them strictly better at being cha casters than anyone else, where i see their cha as more of a diplomatic bit.

you could instead give them +1 to all charisma based skills, or even +2. i agree their underpowered, but if you do what you say, i feel you make them overpowered and take away from the way i believe they were intended.
trashdog
01-07-06, 02:13 AM Eh, I give 'em human bonus skill points. My players appreciated it... though none actually played a half-elf.
camulus411
01-07-06, 05:53 PM I agree that mental attributes w/ only 1 other ability penalty are a little strong, but considering that they will mostly be used for charisma casters, most of which have d4 hit die, i think it will result in them being fragile enough that it won't make that much of a difference. i may eventually take another -2 str to add to the fragility concept, but i don't want to make them even more unplayable. The only people i have playing them are for pure role-play, not cause they're very good.

appreciate the opinions, any more would be appreciated.
FriendlyBiscuit
01-08-06, 07:33 AM Eh, I give 'em human bonus skill points. My players appreciated it... though none actually played a half-elf.
I've been thinking about doing the same thing, but I've also considered giving them an extra feat instead. What's the difference in power between a free feat and extra skillpoints?
Cymraegmorgan
01-08-06, 08:20 AM I give Half-Elves the extra feat, but not the extra skill points in my CS.
jagggar
01-08-06, 12:34 PM The only people i have playing them are for pure role-play, not cause they're very good. If they're only playing them for RP reasons and not for stat reasons, why do you need to change them at all?

I find it funny that people think no race should have mental bonuses without an LA when 3.0 considered them the weaker abilities. (DMG3.0 says if you give a bonus to Str or Dex you should penalize two mental scores.)

Whatever your final half-elves look like they should be two things:
Not the absolute best choice of race. (All races should be more or less equal.)
They should fit your setting's concept of half-elves.
cperkins
01-08-06, 01:42 PM I do what Cymraegmorgan does... give 1/2 elves and bonus feat in place of the diplomacy and gather info bonuses. It works well and, in my humble opinion, makes much more sense.
Sae Cael Oanar
01-08-06, 06:00 PM that actually doesnt change the unbalanced factor at all. i would def give them the feat and the bonus.
FriendlyBiscuit
01-08-06, 07:36 PM It seems that people are saying that the extra skillpoints are slightly more valuable than the extra feat. What about either
giving a bonus feat along with the normal racial stuff
giving human bonus skills in place of the skill bonuses inherent to the race
Safa Swordjackal
01-09-06, 10:56 PM Sure -2 Con would hurt a primary Cha caster a lot, but +2 Cha can also help clerics with turning, and paladins with lots of their abilities, and they aren't rolling d4s. Free Spellcasting Prodigy instead of the Diplomacy and Gather Information checks give them the talent for magic that was mentioned in the PHB over and over again for no obvious reason in their statistics. This does pretty much eliminate the "negotiator" half-elf, though.

I don't really like the +1 to Cha-based skills too much. Plus two to Cha-based skills is part of the half-elf paragon class in UA, and is seems to me like it's much more suited to the paragon class.

Another idea I'm considering is instead of the Diplomacy and Gather Information bonuses, a half-elf player can pick two Cha-based skills to receive a +2 bonus to. These two skills are always considered class skills. It makes half-elves more versitile and personable.
Koga:The ninja trick
01-09-06, 11:16 PM The Koga always played the Tolkein card: When elves/humans mate, the kin are born either elf or human but no mixed breed. The same go's for orc/humans or any other "half" race..
Tytalus
01-17-06, 06:04 AM Looks allright to me.

A CON penalty hurts bad. If you are worried about balance, just compare them to Star Elves [UE]. They get the same bonus/penalty plus a number of other abilites. True, it's a good choice for a sorcerer, but not overly so.
Shadowfax7
01-17-06, 10:21 AM Removed: +2 racial bonus on diplomacy and Gather information checks.

Added: +2 Charisma and -2 Constitution.
This isn't a bad change . . . it's just not a fix.

The +2 Cha and -2 Con cancel each other out balancewise. Thus removing the +2 to Diplomacy and Gather Information checks makes your Half-Elf version weaker.

You need to also replace the +2 to Diplomacy and Gather Information checks with something of equal power.

Some suggestions mentioned above (a bonus feat OR +1 skill point/level) are good and popular among different campaigns.
SilvercatMoonpaw
01-26-06, 08:35 PM +2 Cha is balanced by -2 to Int or Wis according to the current Dungeon Master's Guide. I think -2 Con sounds okay. Maybe the problem is that you aren't thinking far enough. Maybe you should rework the whole half-elf race to be something other than just an elf/human. Note: the DMG also gives an example of a half-elf who was raised among elves, giving it weapons feats but only one favored class.
AT-AT Assault
01-26-06, 09:08 PM Looks allright to me.

A CON penalty hurts bad. If you are worried about balance, just compare them to Star Elves [UE]. They get the same bonus/penalty plus a number of other abilites. True, it's a good choice for a sorcerer, but not overly so.Star Elves? Those sound intresting, so whats the UE?
AT-AT Assault
01-26-06, 09:11 PM +2 Cha is balanced by -2 to Int or Wis according to the current Dungeon Master's Guide. I think -2 Con sounds okay.Also note that if using Vitality and Wound points that Con becomes majorly more important, to the point that in SW(the origin of VP/WP) its usually "worth" as much as Str or Dex(i.e. its negated by a penalty to Str or Dex or by a total -4 to the mental abilities)
Lady Maedhros
01-31-06, 11:45 AM Personally i take away the bonus to GI and Dp and give them two free +2/+2 feats. Gives them more flexibility, which according to the Human principle, is an increase in power, plus it gives them a slight power boost in the form of an extra feat. Since it's a skill feat, it's sort of a combination of the human feat+skill points.

Works for us.
allenchan
01-31-06, 08:26 PM Just to toss in my own modifications to half-elves:
Half-elves choose ONE: +1 Skill Point a level, +4 at level one. OR Elven Weapon Proficiences.

This is of course dependant on which side of their ancestry they were raised by, or predominately affected them (I have a similiar modification to half orcs).

I dont really see why they would gain the +2 cha from a flavor prospective.
FriendoftheDork
02-04-06, 10:52 AM I use the bonus skill point variant also. They're still slightly weaker IMO than elves or humans, a bonus feat at first level means alot.

Giving them +2 cha and -2 con is too powerful, and they would always be chosen for sorcerers and bards and maybe even paladins. When I played fearun every wizard my players made were sun elves because of the +2 int.

This becomes especially important if you use point buy, as a paladin can have 16 cha and 12 con at the same price a human can have 14 cha and 14 con.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
camulus411 01-06-06, 07:02 PM	Myself and everyone i play with feel that half-elves are underpowered, i decided to try and fix it. I made some "small changes" to them. Note: If this is the wrong forum i'm sorry, i thought it would be better to put in here in the house rules forum then races. Removed: +2 racial bonus on diplomacy and Gather information checks. Added: +2 Charisma and -2 Constitution. Reasoning: In the Half-Elf description it describes them as being very personable, so i thought that a charisma bonus would be suitable. To counteract the +2 Cha. bonus, i thought about all of the other abilities, and figured that since elves are frail, this could be passed down to the child. I would appreciate any opinions on my change, especially on balance, and any changes i could make to make it more balanced. Thanks everyone.
Sae Cael Oanar 01-06-06, 07:29 PM	alot of people disagree with bonuses to mental stats with no la. this makes them strictly better at being cha casters than anyone else, where i see their cha as more of a diplomatic bit. you could instead give them +1 to all charisma based skills, or even +2. i agree their underpowered, but if you do what you say, i feel you make them overpowered and take away from the way i believe they were intended.
trashdog 01-07-06, 02:13 AM	Eh, I give 'em human bonus skill points. My players appreciated it... though none actually played a half-elf.
camulus411 01-07-06, 05:53 PM	I agree that mental attributes w/ only 1 other ability penalty are a little strong, but considering that they will mostly be used for charisma casters, most of which have d4 hit die, i think it will result in them being fragile enough that it won't make that much of a difference. i may eventually take another -2 str to add to the fragility concept, but i don't want to make them even more unplayable. The only people i have playing them are for pure role-play, not cause they're very good. appreciate the opinions, any more would be appreciated.
FriendlyBiscuit 01-08-06, 07:33 AM	Eh, I give 'em human bonus skill points. My players appreciated it... though none actually played a half-elf. I've been thinking about doing the same thing, but I've also considered giving them an extra feat instead. What's the difference in power between a free feat and extra skillpoints?
Cymraegmorgan 01-08-06, 08:20 AM	I give Half-Elves the extra feat, but not the extra skill points in my CS.
jagggar 01-08-06, 12:34 PM	The only people i have playing them are for pure role-play, not cause they're very good. If they're only playing them for RP reasons and not for stat reasons, why do you need to change them at all? I find it funny that people think no race should have mental bonuses without an LA when 3.0 considered them the weaker abilities. (DMG3.0 says if you give a bonus to Str or Dex you should penalize two mental scores.) Whatever your final half-elves look like they should be two things: Not the absolute best choice of race. (All races should be more or less equal.) They should fit your setting's concept of half-elves.
cperkins 01-08-06, 01:42 PM	I do what Cymraegmorgan does... give 1/2 elves and bonus feat in place of the diplomacy and gather info bonuses. It works well and, in my humble opinion, makes much more sense.
Sae Cael Oanar 01-08-06, 06:00 PM	that actually doesnt change the unbalanced factor at all. i would def give them the feat and the bonus.
FriendlyBiscuit 01-08-06, 07:36 PM	It seems that people are saying that the extra skillpoints are slightly more valuable than the extra feat. What about either giving a bonus feat along with the normal racial stuff giving human bonus skills in place of the skill bonuses inherent to the race
Safa Swordjackal 01-09-06, 10:56 PM	Sure -2 Con would hurt a primary Cha caster a lot, but +2 Cha can also help clerics with turning, and paladins with lots of their abilities, and they aren't rolling d4s. Free Spellcasting Prodigy instead of the Diplomacy and Gather Information checks give them the talent for magic that was mentioned in the PHB over and over again for no obvious reason in their statistics. This does pretty much eliminate the "negotiator" half-elf, though. I don't really like the +1 to Cha-based skills too much. Plus two to Cha-based skills is part of the half-elf paragon class in UA, and is seems to me like it's much more suited to the paragon class. Another idea I'm considering is instead of the Diplomacy and Gather Information bonuses, a half-elf player can pick two Cha-based skills to receive a +2 bonus to. These two skills are always considered class skills. It makes half-elves more versitile and personable.
Koga:The ninja trick 01-09-06, 11:16 PM	The Koga always played the Tolkein card: When elves/humans mate, the kin are born either elf or human but no mixed breed. The same go's for orc/humans or any other "half" race..
Tytalus 01-17-06, 06:04 AM	Looks allright to me. A CON penalty hurts bad. If you are worried about balance, just compare them to Star Elves [UE]. They get the same bonus/penalty plus a number of other abilites. True, it's a good choice for a sorcerer, but not overly so.
Shadowfax7 01-17-06, 10:21 AM	Removed: +2 racial bonus on diplomacy and Gather information checks. Added: +2 Charisma and -2 Constitution. This isn't a bad change . . . it's just not a fix. The +2 Cha and -2 Con cancel each other out balancewise. Thus removing the +2 to Diplomacy and Gather Information checks makes your Half-Elf version weaker. You need to also replace the +2 to Diplomacy and Gather Information checks with something of equal power. Some suggestions mentioned above (a bonus feat OR +1 skill point/level) are good and popular among different campaigns.
SilvercatMoonpaw 01-26-06, 08:35 PM	+2 Cha is balanced by -2 to Int or Wis according to the current Dungeon Master's Guide. I think -2 Con sounds okay. Maybe the problem is that you aren't thinking far enough. Maybe you should rework the whole half-elf race to be something other than just an elf/human. Note: the DMG also gives an example of a half-elf who was raised among elves, giving it weapons feats but only one favored class.
AT-AT Assault 01-26-06, 09:08 PM	Looks allright to me. A CON penalty hurts bad. If you are worried about balance, just compare them to Star Elves [UE]. They get the same bonus/penalty plus a number of other abilites. True, it's a good choice for a sorcerer, but not overly so.Star Elves? Those sound intresting, so whats the UE?
AT-AT Assault 01-26-06, 09:11 PM	+2 Cha is balanced by -2 to Int or Wis according to the current Dungeon Master's Guide. I think -2 Con sounds okay.Also note that if using Vitality and Wound points that Con becomes majorly more important, to the point that in SW(the origin of VP/WP) its usually "worth" as much as Str or Dex(i.e. its negated by a penalty to Str or Dex or by a total -4 to the mental abilities)
Lady Maedhros 01-31-06, 11:45 AM	Personally i take away the bonus to GI and Dp and give them two free +2/+2 feats. Gives them more flexibility, which according to the Human principle, is an increase in power, plus it gives them a slight power boost in the form of an extra feat. Since it's a skill feat, it's sort of a combination of the human feat+skill points. Works for us.
allenchan 01-31-06, 08:26 PM	Just to toss in my own modifications to half-elves: Half-elves choose ONE: +1 Skill Point a level, +4 at level one. OR Elven Weapon Proficiences. This is of course dependant on which side of their ancestry they were raised by, or predominately affected them (I have a similiar modification to half orcs). I dont really see why they would gain the +2 cha from a flavor prospective.
FriendoftheDork 02-04-06, 10:52 AM	I use the bonus skill point variant also. They're still slightly weaker IMO than elves or humans, a bonus feat at first level means alot. Giving them +2 cha and -2 con is too powerful, and they would always be chosen for sorcerers and bards and maybe even paladins. When I played fearun every wizard my players made were sun elves because of the +2 int. This becomes especially important if you use point buy, as a paladin can have 16 cha and 12 con at the same price a human can have 14 cha and 14 con.