Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aramil_silverwind 09-29-04, 04:54 PM	I've been considering adding this house rule to my game, but I figured I'd pass it by everyone here before play-testing it. Using this variant, arcane spellcasters need to have knowledge of a spell to cast a 'higher grade' version of that spell. For example, a Wizard would hafto have decent experience with the Fireball spell (they must have had the spell in thier book, or in a sorcerors case, their spell list, for at least 2 levels) before he can cast Delayed Blast Fireball. These are the spells I was thinking to use in this system, add some more if you have any good ideas. I've left the 'mass', 'imrpoved' and 'greater' spells out, because they are obvious. Flaming Sphere----> Fireball---\--->Meteor Swarm '-->Delayed Blast Fireball Limited Wish-------> Wish Levitate-----------> Fly------> Overland Flight Light--------------> Daylight Darkness----------> Deeper Darkness Haste-------------> Time Stop Detect Magic------> Arcane Eyes Open/Close--------> Knock Hold portal---------> Arcane Lock Comprehend Languages-> Tongues Protection from [something]-> Circle of Protection vs. [something] Dimension Door-----> Teleport--------\---> Greater Teleport '---> Teleport Object Disguise Self-------> Alter Self---> Seeming Detect Thoughts---> Telepathy Mage Hand--------> Telekinesis Invisibility-\------> Invisibility Sphere '------> Greater Invisibilty-----> Mislead Clairvoyance/audience-> Scry Sleep-------------> Deep Slumber Reduce Person-----> Shrink Item Touch of Fatigue-\--> Ray of Exhaustion-\ '-->Waves of Fatigue---'-> Waves of Exhaustion Leomund's Tiny Hut-> Leomunds Secure Shelter Obscuring Mist-----> Solid Fog-----> Mordenkainens Secure Shelter Polymorph---------> Baleful Polymorph Color Spray-------> Rainbow Pattern---> Prismatic Spray---> Prismatic Wall Touch of Idiocy----> Feeblemind Hallucinatory Terrain--> Mirage Arcana Minor Image--------> Illusionary Wall Whispering Wind----> Sending Dispel Magic -------> Antimagic Field Lighting Bolt-------> Chain Lightning Animate Dead------> Create Undead Alarm--------------> Guards and Wards Wall of Force-------> Force Cage NonDetection------> Sequester Flesh to Stone-----> Statue Legend Lore-------> Vision NOTE: The 'Greater' spells that where added to this list where simply to show whether or not you needed them for a spell further down the line (like how you don't need Improved Invisibility to cast Invisibility Sphere, but you DO need it to cast Mislead) Plz add to the list and give your oppinions on this system.
Mac Awol 09-30-04, 03:01 AM	It has be done in G.U.R.P.S and as chains of Power for Psionic, so why not for D&D spells... A neat idea, but it will create more specialist casters.
Lina_Inverse 09-30-04, 05:36 AM	*pulls out hammer.*BAD DM BAD BAD.sorcerers are already underpowered this basiclly RUINS them.haveing to know each summon monster but you only want 1?needing to know flameing sphere for fireball?what the hell .-. unless your multiplying spells known by 2.....
Kiri Sittori 09-30-04, 09:10 AM	I gotta agree with Lina here: there's no reason to have to give up a 2+3+7 to get Meteor Swarm (or, worse yet, having to take all of the Monster Summon spells to get IX... though Planar Handbook's Sor12 substitution gets around that :P ) Now, to limit *wizards,* or to give different styles of specialisation, it could work (like 2e's "path" magic,) but NOT, NOT, NOT if you wanna apply it to sorcerers.
Aricandor 09-30-04, 03:55 PM	That is agreed. Giving the sorcerer such a colossal hit with the nerf bat is unreasonable and shouldn't be used unless he gets a lot more spells known. As mentioned however, for the wizard it is another matter. He could actually use this. Cool for flavor too...
starfire311 09-30-04, 05:59 PM	This would be fine for wizards. Since it kinda goes along the lines of needing to elarn th basics before they learn the more advanced spells, but as for sorcerors they don't learn their spells so I don't think this should apply to them.
Aramil_silverwind 09-30-04, 07:06 PM	You guys bring up good points about the Sorceror... I think that maybe this would balance the two classes if only applied to Wizard, ne? Thanks for the input, and now that I've gotten some time to myself I'll continue to update the spell list.
DragonWatcher 10-03-04, 10:02 PM	I like it... of course I don't use sorcerers in my games. But that notwithstanding, I think that this is a great idea for wizards, as they lern their spells through study. I don't think that I would rule out learning another spell without the previous one altogether, though. My suggestion is to impose a +2 penalty to scribe a spell that is "based on" a weaker spell if you don't know the weaker spell. This penalty is cumulative, so if a spell has 2 weaker spells, and you don't know either of them, scribing it is at a +4 DC. This only applies to wizards by nature (since they are the only ones who scribe spells), and lets sorcers avoid this restriction for those who love them. :D Good luck!
roll8dn 10-03-04, 11:02 PM	How about a spellcraft check at DC 30 + spell level to learn any higher tier spell (I know that this is already required at DC 15 + spell level for all but the 2 spells learned at each level) that the Wizard doesn't have a lower-level version of? This would represent the difficulty of learning a higher-level spell, without making it impossible (essentially, the Wizard would get a "familiarity" bonus to learn any spell that (s)he has a lower-level version of). That might make things more balanced. Just an opinion, though...
Mrvice 10-04-04, 04:01 AM	If you do decied to implent this try and come up with some bonus sorc gets for doing it. For instance, try giving them 2 bonus spells known per level of spell as long as they go along with two specailized spell routes. Apply a rule that these spell routes must come from diffrent schools, to avoid becoming overpowering. Also consider adding a new feats called spell progression focus, that would stack with spell focus interms of determining save DC. Mr Vice Please pardon my spelling. This is a hastely thought up response and by no means a set in stone solution to your problem
Art_Tillary 10-04-04, 06:59 AM	I like it, especially since it makes a certain amount of logical sense. How does this sound for balance? Sorcercer's and wizards both have to follow the table you laid out, although I'd make it a full level of knowing instead of two. Ie, learn it at the end of 2nd level, learn the next spell on getting 4th level. Wizards of course just keep all the spells in their spell book. Sorcs on the other hand upgrade an existing spell. If they know levitate, they can replace it with fly and gain an appropiate level spell to replace levitate. From an RP / in game perspective, they have improved an existing magical skill and learned a new skill track. Of course the new spell has to follow the same chain rules. Alternatively, they don't have to give up the lower level spell; but get to add another spell at that level to their known list. From a balance point of view, giving the sorc unlimited flexability is a bad idea I think. Hence giving out bonus spells just to increase spells is poor. AT
Sphyre 10-08-04, 09:09 AM	*pulls out hammer.*BAD DM BAD BAD.sorcerers are already underpowered this basiclly RUINS them.haveing to know each summon monster but you only want 1?needing to know flameing sphere for fireball?what the hell .-. unless your multiplying spells known by 2..... While I agree with what you said, I disagree with how you expressed it. He hadn't tested it, it has flavor and he did say it was a houserule... he may not even have sorcerers in his world (he did say wizard...) I personally have a thing against people flaming posted house rules because houserules are called that for a reason, because they are optional and different from house (or game) to house. The "Post your about your crazy Dm's houserules thread" is an exception though ;) I would suggest something like this for the sorcerer's case: When the sorcerer gains the higher level spell in the chain he may (he's not required to) ritual of spell swap the prerequisite spell for free if he wishes in addition to any other ritual of spellswapping he gets at that level. Basically he "upgrades" his spell into a better version leaving that lower slot open for a new spell to learn. This definately has flavor to it as he is trying to accomplish without nerfing the sorcerer. I'm not sure if this is what Art_Tillary was expressing here: Sorcs on the other hand upgrade an existing spell. If they know levitate, they can replace it with fly and gain an appropiate level spell to replace levitate. From an RP / in game perspective, they have improved an existing magical skill and learned a new skill track. Of course the new spell has to follow the same chain rules. But if it is... then that's two people for the idea :) *** I would also suggest a similar thing for divine casters... Not because they have to know how to... but because they get their spells bestowed upon them, correct? How would you be able to handle channeling a cure moderate wounds spell if you hadn't started with the cure minor wounds spell? Not so much a prerequisite of knowing it (because they are bestowed their spells) but knowing how to channel them correctly by having channeled lesser spells in the past. It works for domains too. If you haven't cast your second level domain spell yet, you shouldn't have the experience to cast the third level domain spell yet. This idea is for flavor just as much as balance too, because the popular opinion (although not necessarily mine..) that divine casters completely outstrip arcane casters in every way - and people may just veiw this as an unneeded nerf on arcane casters when compared to divine casters.
White_Fox 10-10-04, 06:08 PM	:whatsthis While I agree with what you said, I disagree with how you expressed it. He hadn't tested it, it has flavor and he did say it was a houserule... he may not even have sorcerers in his world (he did say wizard...) I personally have a thing against people flaming posted house rules because houserules are called that for a reason, because they are optional and different from house (or game) to house. The "Post your about your crazy Dm's houserules thread" is an exception though ;) :tiphat: :D From what I interpreted, I think you two are suggesting the same sort of idea for a Sorcerer, (Upgrading his spells) And I think it sounds fantistic. I also agree with your point about Divine spellcasters, although it might be interesting to consider exactly what happens when their patron diety 'bestows' an upgraded spell upon them. Does the cleric decide to ask for an improved spell, or does the diety automatically grant them ability to cast a higher type of spell when they achieve the required level? (Which actually gets me thinking about the relationship between a cleric and their diety with regards to 'bestowing spells', and how much control the cleric in question has over exactly what they get .... hmmmm. I'll have to file this away for future thought. :D )
Vanigo 10-10-04, 09:23 PM	Having this apply to divine spellcasters would do precicely nothing, since they automatically know every spell on their spell list. I don't know about the two level thing. Seems awfully harsh on wizards who can't find a scroll of certain low-level spells until they've reached higher levels. Some specific notes: Darkness----------> Deeper DarknessMeaningless. Wizards can't cast deeper darkness, and clerics can't not learn darkness. Disguise Self-------> Alter Self---> SeemingThis means that a specialist mage with illusion as a prohibited school can never cast alter self, and one with alteration prohibited can never cast seeming. You probably shouldn't have any cross-school prerequisites. Detect Thoughts---> TelepathyThere is no spell called telepathy. Are you talking about Rary's telepathic bond? Invisibility-\-\-\----> See Invisibility---> True SeeingLike I said, you should stay away from cross-school prerequisites. Also, this one just doesn't make sense. First of all, see invisibility is the same level as invisibility, so there's no way one could be an advanced form of the other. Secondly, they're not related at all; they are in fact in direct opposition to each other. You don't require light in order to cast darkness, so why here? Thirdly, even if you do want cross-school prerequisites, this one is a particularly bad idea. It's absurd that a specialist diviner with illusion as a prohibited school can never learn the most powerful illusion-breaking spell that exists. Obscuring Mist-----> Solid Fog-----> Mordenkainens Secure ShelterThis one's silly. First, where are cloudkill, acid fog, and incendiary cloud? Secondly, there is no Mordenkainen's secure shelter. You probably meant Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion, but that doesn't make sense either. I think you probably meant to add this to the chain above it. Polymorph---------> Baleful PolymorphShouldn't alter self and polymorph any object be in here? Color Spray-------> Rainbow Pattern---> Prismatic Spray---> Prismatic WallAgain, the cross-school thing. Minor Image--------> Illusionary WallWhat about ghost sound, [i]major image, programmed image, and permanent image? And, really, isn't just about every figment in the book built off of minor image? Wall of Force-------> Force CageWhat about Otiluke's resilient sphere and Otiluke's telekinetic sphere? NonDetection------> SequesterShouldn't Mordenkainen's private sanctum, and mind blank be in there? Plus screen, if you don't mind the cross-school issue.
Aramil_silverwind 10-11-04, 07:57 AM	I don't have the PHB handy, but I recall reading about Mordenkainen's Secure Shelter being in a spread of mist and anything inside immune to scrying and such spells. Also, please excuse the lack of school-continuity, I was reading the Sorc/Wiz spells off of a sheet that had them all and a description of each. I thought that Invisibility would move into see invisibility because if you don't know the basics of the invisibility spell, how do you know how to counter it? It works on the same logic as the fact that you need a poison before you can effectively start to make an antivenom. thank you all for the help with this, I know this post is horrible I'm pretty much dead on my feet from lack of sleep. I'll probably edit this tommorow if I remember.
darczero 10-11-04, 08:15 AM	That is agreed. Giving the sorcerer such a colossal hit with the nerf bat is unreasonable and shouldn't be used unless he gets a lot more spells known. As mentioned however, for the wizard it is another matter. He could actually use this. Cool for flavor too... I wouldn't call it a nerf bat... more like a hammer the size of Rhode Island. For Wizards, who learn their new spells on the assumption of research in their off-time, when we all know that most PC wizards don't have any off-time, this house rule makes sense. Especially since they can theoretically know every spell in the game, given enough time and money.
Vanigo 10-11-04, 11:17 PM	I don't have the PHB handy, but I recall reading about Mordenkainen's Secure Shelter being in a spread of mist and anything inside immune to scrying and such spells.No, you're thinking of Mordenkainen's private sanctum, which is really more like nondetection then obscuring mist. Also, fog cloud and stinking cloud should be in there, too. Also, please excuse the lack of school-continuity, I was reading the Sorc/Wiz spells off of a sheet that had them all and a description of each. I thought that Invisibility would move into see invisibility because if you don't know the basics of the invisibility spell, how do you know how to counter it? It works on the same logic as the fact that you need a poison before you can effectively start to make an antivenom. Maybe, but you don't require light to cast darkness, detect magic to cast Nystul's magic aura, hold portal to cast knock, expeditious retreat to cast slow, locate object to cast nondetection, ray of enfeeblement to cast bull's strength, fireball for cone of cold, comprehend languages for illusory script, cause fear for heroism, major creation for disintegrate, charm person for break enchantment, summon monster for dismissal, dispel magic for permanency, nondetection for scrying, or anything else like that. There's still the spell level issue. They're the same level. Why not say you need see invisibility to learn invisibility, instead? For that matter, why not require enlarge person for reduce person? Haste for slow? Crushing despair for heroism? Wall of fire for wall of ice? Plus, "I don't know anything about casting illusions, I hate illusions, that's why I'm a diviner; I dedicate my life to unmasking illusions. That's why I can never cast true seeing, which is the best way to unmask illusions ever created." is just plain absurd. Oh, and you should probably have some alternate prerequisites for some spells.
Thomar_of_Uointer 10-12-04, 06:32 PM	Sorcercer's and wizards both have to follow the table you laid out, although I'd make it a full level of knowing instead of two. Ie, learn it at the end of 2nd level, learn the next spell on getting 4th level. Wizards of course just keep all the spells in their spell book. Sorcs on the other hand upgrade an existing spell. If they know levitate, they can replace it with fly and gain an appropiate level spell to replace levitate. From an RP / in game perspective, they have improved an existing magical skill and learned a new skill track. Of course the new spell has to follow the same chain rules. Perfect! I'm going to run this by my players to see if they'll agree to it (even though they're just a Rogue and Monk and the third hasn't decided yet).
Thelon Fairblade 10-15-04, 02:46 PM	For Wizards, fine. Basically, you are increasing the price and time to get higher level spells. Delayed Blast Fireball used to cost 800gp and take 8 hours to scribe. Now it costs 1300 (flaming sphere, fireball) and takes 13 hours. No advantage besides aesthetics of "no calculus until you master trigonometry". For Sorcerers: you must let them Upgrade to the new spell. The PHB already pretty much allows this (gain Greater Dispel, replace Dispel Magic with something else), but the mechanics occasoinally breakdown (can't replace Flaming Sphere at the level you gain Fireball, for example, and you can't upgrade multiple spells at once). So a free upgrade would be fine.... but now that Sorcerer can *only* Fly, not Levitate. My suggestion would be a Psionics "augmentation"-flavored rule. The simple version is "let them keep the old spell on the list, but give a new spell slot at that level" I.e. learn Fly, get a new 2nd level spell... but keep Levitate too. [WARNING: this option has a hidden munchkin loophole: PrCs or feats that require, say "2 spells of 3rd level or above" may be qualified for more easily since you are adding spells known, not replacing.] The more complicated version is "keep the spell chain available, and replace the old spells". I.e. learn Fly, remove Levitate, get a new 2nd level spell... but Levitate is still an option instead of Fly. (Perhaps the "higher" level spells can't be cast on the same kinds of targets, for example, meaning you might want to use the lesser version.) In this example, Levitate (now a sub-spell for Fly) still takes a 3rd level spell slot -- but uses the DC of the spell slot! Fireball cast from Delayed Blast Fireball's spell slot is Fireball with a DC based on the 8th level spell, not the 3rd level spell! Most Complicated (and yet mechanically identical to Option 1): using a lower-level subspell requires a lower-level spell slot. You gained Fly, you replaced Levitate, but now you want to cast Levitate... it takes a 2nd spell slot, and acts just like a normal Levitate spell. As a more versatile option, you can let the sorcerer scale (Heighten Spell, no metamagic delay) any spell in the chain up to the spell level of the highest spell known on the chain. Confused yet? :cool:
Cantankerous 10-16-04, 03:04 AM	Ohhh, I'm definately liking this. Thank you. I think you've provided me (between Aramil and Thelon) with my first 3.5 house rule. Ininstituted something very similiar to this in my old 2E game but with one proviso, which I think I'm going to keep. The above did not apply to specialty spell casters within their specialty only, since the specialty already integrates the whole "deeper understanding" concept. Another thing to remember if some one captures or discovers a spellbook though, all of the lesser version of the spell should probably be in the book as well. ie: Levitate, Fly, Overland Flight. This will also give a more structured feel to Wizards and differentiate them even more from Sorcerors. I really like this idea. Isshia
Aramil_silverwind 10-16-04, 09:27 PM	Plus, "I don't know anything about casting illusions, I hate illusions, that's why I'm a diviner; I dedicate my life to unmasking illusions. That's why I can never cast true seeing, which is the best way to unmask illusions ever created." is just plain absurd. Point taken, I'll axe that prerequisite.