Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Unsung_Heroes 04-02-07, 04:42 PM	I was thinking one day about skill points. I realized how powerful they were when it occured to me that two skill points grant fluency in a foreign language. Anybody who has taken a foreign language class knows exactly how much work that represents. That's when I started thinking about alternative uses for skill points, leading to the two skills below. New Skills: (Note: both skills are treated as class skills for any class) Bonus Feat Key ability: None For every four bonus points a character has in this "skill," he gains an additional feat. The character must meet all the pre-requisites of the feat taken. This represents a character devoting less time to learning new skills or improving old ones, and more time training for a certain feat. Bonus points derive from ranks in the skill and racial bonuses. Increase Ability Key ability: None For every six bonus points a character has in this skill, he gains a +1 to an ability of his choice. This bonus is identical to the bonus recieved every fourth level. This represents a character spending less time learning new skills or improving old ones, and more time focusing on improving an ability score. Bonus points derive from ranks in the skill and racial bonuses. In addition, I ruled that humans recieve a +3 racial bonus, while half-elves and half-orcs recieve a +1. I designed them to create further possibilities for PCs. They can allow a rogue to be more fightery, as well as put more of a value on intellegence for combat-classes. I had a fighter with an Int of 18 one time, and darned if I could figure out what to do with it. I gave the racial bonuses because I've always thought that humans were a little underbalanced, and because half-elves and (particularly) half-orcs gain no benefit to being half-human. These rules are still in their infantile stages. I'm thinking that the +3/+1/+1 racial bonuses might be going a bit far. I suspect that I should make a list of feats that can be taken as bonus feats, but I don't have a method of establishing which feats to disallow (except for the feats which give a +2 to two skills). If anyone has any advice for improvement of these skills, or just criticism of them, I'd love to hear it.
Arcade 04-02-07, 04:53 PM	In general, this type of system overpowers the rogue, who can blow two skill points per level and not notice. Most players I know would use these options if they had a chance, leading to all classes getting 2 fewer skill points per level in exchange for feats and ability bonuses. What you may want to do is look into Complete Scoundrel which has skill tricks; they are like mini feats that you buy for a few skill points and are related to your skills.
Karish 04-02-07, 04:56 PM	Maybe if they were cross-class, but I don't see these happening in my games even if they were.
JulesCARV 04-02-07, 04:59 PM	Let's see... over 20 levels, a barbarian gets 46 more skill points than a fighter. At 4 skill points per feat, that translates into 11 feats, plus two leftover skill points. Put the two left over skill points into literacy, and now the barbarian is a fighter who trades a non-lawful alignment restriction, heavy armor proficiency, and tower shield proficiency for fast movement, rage, damage reduction, uncanny dodge, trap sense, a one-size upgrade in hit dice (d10 --> d12), and listen and survival as class skills. Hmm... heavy armor and tower shield proficiency is nice, and sometimes I like playing a lawful character, but I'm not sure it's that nice.
Unsung_Heroes 04-02-07, 05:46 PM	In general, this type of system overpowers the rogue, who can blow two skill points per level and not notice. Most players I know would use these options if they had a chance, leading to all classes getting 2 fewer skill points per level in exchange for feats and ability bonuses. What you may want to do is look into Complete Scoundrel which has skill tricks; they are like mini feats that you buy for a few skill points and are related to your skills. Thank you, I'll look into that. To my knowledge, there was no supplement that really went into alternative uses for skill points, so my own ramshackle concept was all I had to go on. I'll look into it.
Grizzled Gryphon 04-02-07, 07:51 PM	Let's see... over 20 levels, a barbarian gets 46 more skill points than a fighter. At 4 skill points per feat, that translates into 11 feats, plus two leftover skill points. Put the two left over skill points into literacy, and now the barbarian is a fighter who trades a non-lawful alignment restriction, heavy armor proficiency, and tower shield proficiency for fast movement, rage, damage reduction, uncanny dodge, trap sense, a one-size upgrade in hit dice (d10 --> d12), and listen and survival as class skills. Hmm... heavy armor and tower shield proficiency is nice, and sometimes I like playing a lawful character, but I'm not sure it's that nice. Except, you have ranks in these skills, like any other skill. that means that the most you can have is your level +3, unless your human or half human. So, at level 20, you could have 24, or 27 as a human, or 25 as a half human. So, no, you wouldn't have 11 extra feats, but even so, the 6 extra feats a character would get are bad enough. oh, and the +4 to a stat, lets not forget that. Hey, what about the feats that give you more skill points? Kind of redundant to use a feat to get a feat, but still, you could get your bonus feats earlier. Even so, this will never happen in my games. I am sure the DM's I play with will never allow it, either.
trapspringer 04-04-07, 11:52 AM	You need to up the skill cost of your feat skill. Open minded trades a feat for five skill points. The trade off should be sub-optimal (as I believe it is for open minded). That means you should charge six skill points for a feat, and you should enforce the max ranks/level. This also means they won't be able to pick up but three extra feats in this fasion. Totally not broken, but extremely appealing to specialists like beaters, skill monkeys, and pure casters. I got no clue on ability points. It seems like it will always be the best choice for casters. Anything that always the best choice is out of balance.
starfire311 04-06-07, 09:33 AM	look into the mutants and masterminds system, you may like it. basically in M&M you get power points to spend on buying attributes, feats and skills, it recommends that the DM sets the skill point to power point ratio at 4:1, or 5:1, and 1 feat is one power point, so in that system 1 feat is worth 4 or 5 skill points.
spyone 04-06-07, 09:59 AM	Bonus Feat Key ability: None For every four bonus points a character has in this "skill," he gains an additional feat. The character must meet all the pre-requisites of the feat taken. This represents a character devoting less time to learning new skills or improving old ones, and more time training for a certain feat. Bonus points derive from ranks in the skill and racial bonuses. Increase Ability Key ability: None For every six bonus points a character has in this skill, he gains a +1 to an ability of his choice. This bonus is identical to the bonus recieved every fourth level. This represents a character spending less time learning new skills or improving old ones, and more time focusing on improving an ability score. Bonus points derive from ranks in the skill and racial bonuses. I believe you'll find "Bonus Feat" overpowered, and "Increase Ability" underpowered, slightly. Just as sort of a barometer, I check things against BESMd20, which gives a point cost for most d20 abilities. For example, 4 skill points is worth 1 "character point". Which means that "Bonus Feat" gives you a feat for 1 CP, and "Increase Ability" gives you +1 to any stat for 1.5 CP. But they charge 2 CP for a feat, and only 1 CP for +1 to any stat. Thus, I suspect you'll find a better balance if you give a Feat for every 8 skill points sacrificed, and a +1 to any ability for every 4 skill points sacrificed. (Which is basicly what those skills do: they let you give up skill points to get something else instead.) Of course, YMMV.
trapspringer 04-06-07, 05:38 PM	Spyone: That looks somewhat balanced. I still hesitate to allow casters to improve a stat until someone can show me a circumstance where it isn't the best choice.
Vrael 04-07-07, 10:22 AM	I believe you'll find "Bonus Feat" overpowered, and "Increase Ability" underpowered, slightly. Just as sort of a barometer, I check things against BESMd20, which gives a point cost for most d20 abilities. For example, 4 skill points is worth 1 "character point". Which means that "Bonus Feat" gives you a feat for 1 CP, and "Increase Ability" gives you +1 to any stat for 1.5 CP. But they charge 2 CP for a feat, and only 1 CP for +1 to any stat. Thus, I suspect you'll find a better balance if you give a Feat for every 8 skill points sacrificed, and a +1 to any ability for every 4 skill points sacrificed. (Which is basicly what those skills do: they let you give up skill points to get something else instead.) Of course, YMMV. For one, it's 1 CP for +2 to any stat. For two, BESMd20 is one of the least balanced systems out there. DR is cheaper than AC (1 CP for 1 vs 3 CP for 1), dynamic sorcery is patently frightening, and Own a Big Mecha is just insanity.
calronmoonflower 04-07-07, 05:03 PM	Bonus Feat should be increased to 5 points per feat. As it is you could put 4 of your skill points into it every 4 levels and select Open Mind and end up with 5 skill points.
Archtyrant Terevoth 04-08-07, 12:48 AM	Uh... no... skill points are there so characters have some kind of background skills. You're letting them put all their skill points into combat related stuff and effectively be bland killing machines. Two thumbs way down on this idea.
starfire311 04-08-07, 09:44 AM	Uh... no... skill points are there so characters have some kind of background skills. You're letting them put all their skill points into combat related stuff and effectively be bland killing machines. Two thumbs way down on this idea. while I don't agree with your reasoning for SP, I do think they are not good skills, because they would become must get skills, if everyone buys something then it is not balanced.
Palomides 04-08-07, 11:50 AM	I thought of something like that were you skill dev. points could buy you feat or skills but to be fair for each class they need to have the same quantity of dev. points.
concerro 04-09-07, 12:25 AM	Dont do it. Your players' if they are halfway decent character makers will smash ur campaign with only 1 or 2 extra feats and let them get a spell caster and allow him to boost his stats and your NPC's will never make saves
BlueFlames 04-09-07, 01:40 AM	It's a fascinating idea, but I'd hesitate before implementing it. Treating these as class skills, you're looking at the potential of giving every class a bonus feat at level one and every four levels thereafter and an ability point at level three and every six levels thereafter. Initially, this does seem a little on the high-powered side, especially for rogues, but while looking for solutions, more flaws became apparent. My thought process started by making these skills cross-class for classes with particularly high skill point totals (rogues, beguilers, et. al.) That changes the frequency with which these characters can gain the bonus feats and abilities, but dumping two skill points per level for someone with six to eight (plus a probably high intelligence modifier) is still not a terribly high cost. Noticeable? Yes. Significant? Not very. My tune started to change at this point, thinking about from where the skill points would be divested. Maybe your rogue drops the ranks he might have had in Local Knowledge or Gather Information. Heck, your wizard is probably going to end up only having skill ranks in Arcane Knowledge, Spellcraft, and maybe a social skill, when his intelligence gets really high (a progression aided by the ability skill, but I'll open that can of worms later). What feats are we going to be picking up? Probably combat feats for the rogue and feats along the line of Spell Focus and metamagic for the wizard. Skill points are there so characters have some kind of background skills. You're letting them put all their skill points into combat related stuff and effectively be bland killing machines. I had not put much stock in this quote, when I initially read it, but at this point, it's making more sense, from the perspective of the bonus feat skill. Now, feats aren't all combat-related, so it seems that there is still some hope here. My gut reaction was to create a selection of feats that was essentially anything that was not available as a fighter bonus, wizard bonus, or monstrous feat (bearing in mind that I have house ruled some additional feats, such as Spell Focus, onto the wizard bonus feat list). That is a start, but it doesn't rule out all of the combat-related feats, and it doesn't fully narrow the feat selection to those that mimic the purpose of extra skill points. Though I like the concept of being able to exchange skill points for feats, I'm just not sure the idea is thematically salvagable. If you want to run a high-powered, combat-heavy campaign, with little emphasis on other activities, this might be a nice alternative to things like flaws and antifeats, but before implementing this, carefully consider the nature of the campaign. Ability points are a little tricky. For casters with an extra skill point to spend at each level, this is flat broken. Now instead of just needing the relevant knowledge skill and Spellcraft, you gain a boost to all of your save DCs and extra bonus spells at level nine (or three and fifteen, if you start with an odd number in your casting stat). Additionally, at later levels, investing in the bonus ability skill can be made to pay for itself. Start with fifteen intelligence, then at level three, you can boost your intelligence to sixteen for an extra skill point at each level that can naturally be invested in bonus ability. At this point, what you've done is exchange six skill points for a +2 bonus to any other stat. If the other two points go into intelligence as well, then you've exchanged one skill point for a +3 bonus to intelligence. (Note that if you play into epic levels, you start to come off with a profit in both skill and ability points.) Yes, that is an exchange that takes place over twenty levels, but the net gain doesn't balance with the cost. Making the bonus ability skill cross-class would make it remain balanced until much later in the game, but for high-level play, the bonuses always catch up with the costs. Unless you dictate that bonus ability points can't be put into intelligence, this is only appropriate for low-/mid-level play. If you plan on going past fifteen, this skill breaks. Even in lower level games, I would also give this skill careful consideration before implementation. Again, I like the core idea of using skill ranks to buy feats and ability points, but thematically and mechanically, it is difficult to make work. Looking at the work involved and the restrictions that would result, I doubt that the skills would be worth having in the game at all in the end. I am certain these skills they are not usable in their current form, though.
Grizzled Gryphon 04-09-07, 09:40 PM	Yeah, getting 'balance' out of this would difficult, to say the least. I posted this to my group as joke, and they were all, of course, very much for it. They thought I was serious. No way. from the lack of arguement from them, though, I gathered they realized how broken this is, and left it at that. Still humorous, though.
FriendlyBiscuit 04-11-07, 05:46 PM	I sell characters feats at the cost of experience points. The first feat is a real bargain. Everyone knows that, when creating a character, they wished they had just one more feat so they could grab that cool one over there. But they don't have the feat to spare, so they grab the feat that everyone grabs. (natural spell, eschew materials, psionic meditation, weapon focus, or improved natural attack are a few must-haves for certain classes, and they aren't especially exciting) So the first feat a character purchases costs only 300 exp. All my players are running around with one extra feat, and not significantly overpowered because of it. The kobold now has draconic wings instead of waiting for the sorcerer to cast Fly when he needs it, the sorcerer purchased two of the Fiendish Heritage feats, etc. They get rapidly more expensive, at a rate much quicker than the exp needed for leveling. 300 900 1800 3600 7200 14000 29000 58000 120000 230000
ZuulMoG 04-13-07, 09:50 AM	I sell characters feats at the cost of experience points. You, sir, are a genius. But, I do see a loophole. At higher exp levels, these rapidly become bargains. I would recommend requiring that anyone using this option have to select it by 2nd level, and use it at least every other level, or their access to it is removed.
FriendlyBiscuit 04-14-07, 02:36 PM	The way I see it,the insanely-increasing cost rate makes it all okay. If they were smart enough to grab it at a lowish level, then they've had the opportunity to use it all this time. If they grab it later, when it's practically free, they've missed out on the chance to have it at lower levels when it would have made more of a difference. You could be right, for all I know. But I don't think I'll ever need to force them to do it; all of them have one, a few have bought two, and one has even bought three. Players love feats. :D
UAMDB 04-23-07, 01:39 PM	The way I see it,the insanely-increasing cost rate makes it all okay. If they were smart enough to grab it at a lowish level, then they've had the opportunity to use it all this time. If they grab it later, when it's practically free, they've missed out on the chance to have it at lower levels when it would have made more of a difference. You could be right, for all I know. But I don't think I'll ever need to force them to do it; all of them have one, a few have bought two, and one has even bought three. Players love feats. :D The problem is if they wait, and a really good player can be patient, then they can get an epic feat for only 300xp Now thats a bargain.
FriendlyBiscuit 04-24-07, 08:43 AM	The problem is if they wait, and a really good player can be patient, then they can get an epic feat for only 300xp Now thats a bargain.Hmm, good point. I don't think the solution is forcing people to take it (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12082779&postcount=20), nor is the solution limiting when you can take it (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12188837&postcount=4). Just set points past which you can no longer buy em on the cheap. "Buy it now or forever hold your peace!" Y'know. "When a character has reached level X, they can no longer buy a feat for 300 if they have not done so already. If they wish to buy a feat, they must pay 900 and so on." Or some such rot. Maybe I only solve it that way cuz I work retail, though... <.< ... >.>
starfire311 04-24-07, 08:57 AM	Hmm, good point. I don't think the solution is forcing people to take it (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12082779&postcount=20), nor is the solution limiting when you can take it (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12188837&postcount=4). Just set points past which you can no longer buy em on the cheap. "Buy it now or forever hold your peace!" Y'know. "When a character has reached level X, they can no longer buy a feat for 300 if they have not done so already. If they wish to buy a feat, they must pay 900 and so on." Or some such rot. Maybe I only solve it that way cuz I work retail, though... <.< ... >.> how about making the cost be 200-300xp per level, and you can only buy 1 per 2 levels. so to buy an epic feat at level 21 it would be 4200xp-6300xp wether it is the 1st time using it orther 10th.
UAMDB 04-24-07, 12:18 PM	how about making the cost be 200-300xp per level, and you can only buy 1 per 2 levels. so to buy an epic feat at level 21 it would be 4200xp-6300xp wether it is the 1st time using it orther 10th. That could work, or if he wanted to take a longer approach to the problem. He could assign on ex cost to the feats them selves. Imprved Int cost 100xp while Improved Crit cost 1000xp. I would not want to go through the headache of tring to figure out the xp worth of one feat over the other. I suggested this to show that different feats are worth more than others. Burning xp for feats also allows players to qualify for PrCs faster than they were designed for.