Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LordPendragon 08-24-06, 04:34 PM	Problem Spellcasters and fighters are at far different power levels, depending on the number of encounters per day. The fighter can go all day, haing moderate to low effect with each attack, whereas the caster can unload his entire arsenal in one apocalyptic encounter. This shouldn't be much of a problem, since the fighter gets to shine after the standard 4 encounters are over, right?? Wrong. Many parties never go past 3 encounters, because their spellcasters run out of spells, and the DM doesn't wish to force them forward with no healing magic and minimal arcane magic left. If the DM did force it, it would have to be against weak enemies, since the fighters will basically be working alone. This results in low reward scenarios where the risk of something going wrong and the PCs having no way to counter it is very high. So pretty much every day consists of no more than 4 encounters, and the fighter never gets to take the spotlight. Solution Make casters just as good in the 4th encounter as they are in the first encounter; and just as good in the 8th as in the 4th. This means most party members are going into every encounter at full steam, and they're going to recharge themselves after every encounter. Nobody gets left out, since they all get to use their full potential. Obviously, this does raise some mechanics issues... First of all, healing magic. Rechargeable healing means that the PCs are going into every encounter at 100%. Secondly, buffs. Any buff with a decent duration can effectively be kept on every party memeber at all times. These issues will be dealt with Also, there are some campaign setting issues involved... Buying spells is going to be interesting, since it costs nothing for a caster to use a spell under this system. However, since there's already no real expense for casters to cast you a spell under the current rules, we can assume there's a standardized rate determined by the powerful Wizards. So nothing needs to change, since Wizards are greedy no matter how many times they can recharge their spells per day. Another interesting campaign setting element is teleportation. With casters able to use Greater Teleport more than 100 times in a day, travel becomes a non-issue. The Clerics of Farlanghn may decide to give free teleports to weary travellers, or an ambitious group of Wizards could decide to monopolize the overland teleportation market and charge a transport fee. Goods will be available nearly anywhere, since merchants will rarely have to travel by boat or cart. NPCs will be found far from their homelands, since it takes barely any effort to travel. Overall, the increase in travel will make the world a lot more like modern Earth, wih regards to diversity and availability of information/goods. Mechanics Casters no longer have spells per day. Instead, each spellcaster has a set number of spells of each level that they can cast (as normal), but used spells can be recharged by taking some sort of action for 5 minutes; the activity required is specific to each class. Casters also no longer gain extra spells from having a high ability score. In order to cast any spell, their ability modifier for the appropriate ability must equal or exceeed the spell's level. That means casting a level 9 spell requires at least a 28 in the appropriate score. Spells with a duration effect have that duration as normal, but there is one change. While a duration spell is in effect, it continues to use the spell slot it was cast from. A spellcaster recharging his spells while a duration spell he cast is still in effect doesn't regain a spell of that spell's level. For instance, if Herbert the 5th level Sorcerer cast Mage Armour on himself, he would have 2 level 1 spells left out of 3. If he later casts Magic Missile, he can then recharge his spells per day, but will only regain back up to 2 level 1 spells if his Mage Armour is still in effect. If he had also cast Mage Armour on his 2 friends, then Herbert couldn't regain any level 1 spells at all until he dismissed a Mage Armour, or the duration ran out. Since all the spellcasters will be running at full power for every encounter, it's going to be a little easier on the PCs. Therefore, most encounters should be considered 2 to 3 ECL less than they actually are. Sorcerers have the same number of spells known as in the PHB, and can cast a certain number of spells, as detailed in the chart below. A Sorcerer must spend 5 minutes in any nonstrenuous activity, to regain his spells; this activity may be light conversation, walking, casual shopping, or even a 5 minute nap. The Sorcerer doesn't have to consciously focus on regaining his spells to do so; in fact, he may not even know that he is regaining them, if he doesn't fully understand his own powers. Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 1st 4 3 — — — — — — — — 2nd 5 3 — — — — — — — — 3rd 6 3 — — — — — — — — 4th 7 3 1 — — — — — — — 5th 8 3 1 — — — — — — — 6th 9 3 2 1 — — — — — — 7th 10 3 2 1 — — — — — — 8th 11 4 2 2 1 — — — — — 9th 12 4 2 2 1 — — — — — 10th 13 5 3 2 2 1 — — — — 11th 14 5 3 2 2 1 — — — — 12th 15 6 3 3 2 2 1 — — — 13th 16 6 3 3 2 2 1 — — — 14th 17 7 4 3 3 2 2 1 — — 15th 18 7 4 3 3 2 2 1 — — 16th 19 8 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 — 17th 20 8 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 — 18th 21 9 5 4 4 3 3 2 1 1 19th 22 9 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 20th 23 10 5 5 4 4 3 2 2 1 Wizards also gain spells known as in the PHB, and cast a number of spells as shown in the chart below. A Wizard must study his spellbook for 5 minutes to regain his used spells; he can not be doing anything else during this time. At the beginning of each day, he must read his spellbook for 1 hour to prepare spells. He prepares 1 spell for each spell slot he can cast, and he can prepare a specific spell more than once if he wishes. He may only cast a spell if he has it prepared, and may only cast it as many times as he has prepared it. A specialist Wizard may choose one additional spell of the appropriate school for each spell level he can cast, and can sacrifice any prepared spell of the appropriate level to cast that spell; note that this doesn't actually give him any extra spells to cast, just gives him a different spell to cast. Clerics can cast the same number of spells as a Wizard. A Cleric must pray for 5 minutes to regain his spells; he cannot be doing anything else at this time. At the beginning of each day, he must pray for 1 hour and prepare spells for the day. This spell preparation works just like the Wizard's preparation, except the Cleric cannot be specialized. Instead of specializing, the Cleric chooses 2 domains, and may choose one additional spell from his domain spells for each spell level he can cast, and sacrifice a prepared spell of the appropriate level to cast that domain spell. Druids cast and prepare spells just like a Cleric or Wizard, but cannot specialize and do not get domain spells. A Druid regains his spells by meditating and attuning himself with nature for 5 minutes; this can be performed anywhere, even in a city, but he cannot be doing anything else at the time. A Druid always has the option of sacrificing a prepared spell to cast a Summon Nature's Ally spell of the appropriate level. Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 1st 3 2 — — — — — — — — 2nd 4 2 — — — — — — — — 3rd 5 2 1 — — — — — — — 4th 6 2 1 — — — — — — — 5th 7 2 1 1 — — — — — — 6th 8 2 1 1 — — — — — — 7th 9 3 2 1 1 — — — — — 8th 10 3 2 1 1 — — — — — 9th 11 4 2 2 1 1 — — — — 10th 12 4 2 2 1 1 — — — — 11th 13 5 3 2 2 1 1 — — — 12th 14 5 3 2 2 1 1 — — — 13th 15 6 3 3 2 2 1 1 — — 14th 16 6 3 3 2 2 1 1 — — 15th 17 7 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 — 16th 18 7 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 — 17th 19 8 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 18th 20 8 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 19th 21 9 5 4 4 3 3 2 1 1 20th 22 9 5 4 4 3 3 2 1 1 Adaptation To convert this system to be used with psionics and spell-point casting, calculate the character's points as normal, and then divide the total result by 4. In general, this theory can be applied to almost any X/day ability; simply divide uses by 4, and then implement a 5 minute recharge condition. Obviously, applying this theory outside of standard spellcasting/psionics will require the DM to examine and permit the changes, to prevent abuse.
Echo_that_Pains 08-24-06, 04:51 PM	*read response post in Magic area*
2nd Ed Paladin 08-25-06, 01:06 PM	Your initial problem seemed to be that the fighter never gets a chance to shine because the mages never run out of spells. How did your solution change that? I think all these changes will do is make the fighter completely obsolete. Sorry I couldn't be more positive, I can see you put a lot of work into it.
LordPendragon 08-25-06, 01:27 PM	Well, the idea is that since the casters get a far reduced number of high level spells, they'll run out of them fairly quickly, and have to use their lower level spells instead. I don't want to have the casters run out of spells (at least, not often). What I want is for them to have a limit on the amount of destruction they can cause in a single encounter. Then, once they're limited to an appropriate amount, it shouldn't be a problem to let them do it in every encounter. After reading your post, though, and looking back on the charts I wrote up, I noticed a few things... Basically, the casters will only get 4-6 spells of their 3 highest levels. Assuming that the powerful spells are in those 3 spell levels, it's not too bad. A spellcaster gets 6 rounds where he brings the pain, then has to tone it down for the rest of the encounter. Then i realized that bonus spells due to a high ability modifier will change that into 7-9 rounds of pain, which is a little much. I might go back through the charts and reduce all the numbers by 1. (Yes, that means the Wizard will only get level 9 spells if he has an Int of 28 or higher... Mais c'est la vie)
Thelon Fairblade 08-25-06, 03:26 PM	Well, the other issue is that those high-level encounters (supposedly, never played at higher than 12th in 3e or 3.5e) don't last too long when the casters get going. So 4-6 "rounds of pain" is more than enough for the caster to own the battle. and, with infinite recharge, he gets to own all 4 encounters, or eight, or whatever, casting his best spells in each battle, every time.... Methinks you have not helped the fighter.
LordPendragon 08-25-06, 03:56 PM	Well, the other issue is that those high-level encounters (supposedly, never played at higher than 12th in 3e or 3.5e) don't last too long when the casters get going. So 4-6 "rounds of pain" is more than enough for the caster to own the battle. and, with infinite recharge, he gets to own all 4 encounters, or eight, or whatever, casting his best spells in each battle, every time....Duly noted. Do you think that simply further reducing the spells per recharge would be effective??
Seerow 08-25-06, 08:41 PM	I'd recommend dropping bonus spell-slots from high intelligence altogether, let that be used for DCs instead. If you really want to make sure people still prioritize their casting stat (as if DCs weren't enough), make it require double to cast a spell (So you'd better have 28 int by level 17)
UnknownMourner 08-27-06, 06:56 PM	No offense, but you should just stop coddling your players so much. Run them through more encounters per day, at slightly less power level. Don't design everything to be a tough fight. Drag up some stuff a few levels lower and make them fight that first. Go light fight, strong, light, strong, light, strong before you even give them a chance to rest.
Seerow 08-27-06, 06:59 PM	And during that 6th encounter you get a TPK cause you threw a strong encounter when the Casters had nothing, so you're essentially fighting with an at most 2 man party. The entire point of changing the system is so that you don't HAVE to coddle the players, you can run them through whatever you feel the story requires without having to tone down encounters to make sure they'll live
UnknownMourner 08-27-06, 07:08 PM	They gotta decide when to sit out a combat with their spells. If they fireball the kobolds, when they shoulda saved it for later, that's their problem.
Seerow 08-27-06, 07:26 PM	But nobody should be useless in a combat. That just leads to bad feelings between players and possibly between player and DM. I for one wouldn't want someone with that kind of attitude as my DM. I mean, unless the Wizard has been using divinations to know everything that's going to occur to him for the rest of the day, he can't possibly know whether to save his spells for later or cast them now, because all you know is what's going on now, not what might happen later. Besides, when else are you supposed to use Fireball? I'd say using it on a group of Kobolds would be the smart thing to do, ending an encounter in one shot rather than wasting resources healing the Fighter after he goes and cleaves through them, probably getting hurt in the process.
LordPendragon 08-27-06, 07:38 PM	Edited the first post. Notable changes are... - Reduced spells per recharge for all classes. - Removed bonus spells for a high ability score. - Added a higher ability requirement. - Included a blurb on applying the system to psionics/spell points
Seerow 08-27-06, 08:14 PM	Hrm... I still think Sorcerer should be bumped to the normal curve for when new spells are acquired. I'm trying to work on a table right now to get that to work while maintaining some sort of pattern but not giving too much. Make sure you're looking closely at what's gained each level though. A Sorcerer 19 and Sorcerer20 have litterally the same spells per day with your charts. This makes giving up a caster level for prestiges much less of a disadvantage compared to losing out on several higher level slots. Also, simply dividing spellpoints/PP by four doesn't really work. For example, consider you actually gave the Wizard -more- spells per encounter at level one than he would normally have for a whole day. (2 spells per encounter compared to one per day). A low level Psion has only 2 base power points, and a Psiwar has none. If you don't allow the bonus from high bonuses they have nothing at all early on. If you do allow the bonus from high bonuses, the casters get jealous. I think a different formula would have to be worked out, at least for lower levels.
LordPendragon 08-28-06, 02:53 AM	I still think Sorcerer should be bumped to the normal curve for when new spells are acquired. I'm trying to work on a table right now to get that to work while maintaining some sort of pattern but not giving too much.It's been a defining point of Sorcerers that they gain their spells later, but can cast more of them. I'm trying to conserve that. I'd like to see your take on it, though. Also, simply dividing spellpoints/PP by four doesn't really work. For example, consider you actually gave the Wizard -more- spells per encounter at level one than he would normally have for a whole day. (2 spells per encounter compared to one per day). A low level Psion has only 2 base power points, and a Psiwar has none. If you don't allow the bonus from high bonuses they have nothing at all early on. If you do allow the bonus from high bonuses, the casters get jealous. I think a different formula would have to be worked out, at least for lower levels.You're right. I just threw in a "quick fix" for psions and spell-point casters. I'll eventually put more work into it, and get a real chart for them.
Seerow 08-28-06, 11:43 AM	It's been a defining point of Sorcerers that they gain their spells later, but can cast more of them. I'm trying to conserve that. I'd like to see your take on it, though. The trouble is now they don't cast very many more of them. Maybe 1-2 extra spells from the levels that matter. Compare a 20th level Sorc to a 20th level Wizard. Out of their top 3 levels, the Sorcerer has the incredible advantage of 1 8th level slot. So you've already disrupted half of this fundamental quirk, why not just kill off the other half of it, and make them use the same spell progression, and make the Sorcerer's advantage having more options available to him than a Wizard at a given time, while the Wizard can tailor his options later. Of course, I'd also knock off the increased metamagic casting times and give the Sorc bonus feats or some sort of class ability, so what do I know?
LordPendragon 08-28-06, 01:35 PM	The trouble is now they don't cast very many more of them. Maybe 1-2 extra spells from the levels that matter. Compare a 20th level Sorc to a 20th level Wizard. Out of their top 3 levels, the Sorcerer has the incredible advantage of 1 8th level slot. So you've already disrupted half of this fundamental quirk, why not just kill off the other half of it, and make them use the same spell progression, and make the Sorcerer's advantage having more options available to him than a Wizard at a given time, while the Wizard can tailor his options later.Duly noted.
2nd Ed Paladin 08-28-06, 04:48 PM	Well, the idea is that since the casters get a far reduced number of high level spells, they'll run out of them fairly quickly, and have to use their lower level spells instead. I don't want to have the casters run out of spells (at least, not often). What I want is for them to have a limit on the amount of destruction they can cause in a single encounter. Then, once they're limited to an appropriate amount, it shouldn't be a problem to let them do it in every encounter. After reading your post, though, and looking back on the charts I wrote up, I noticed a few things... Basically, the casters will only get 4-6 spells of their 3 highest levels. Assuming that the powerful spells are in those 3 spell levels, it's not too bad. A spellcaster gets 6 rounds where he brings the pain, then has to tone it down for the rest of the encounter. Then i realized that bonus spells due to a high ability modifier will change that into 7-9 rounds of pain, which is a little much. I might go back through the charts and reduce all the numbers by 1. (Yes, that means the Wizard will only get level 9 spells if he has an Int of 28 or higher... Mais c'est la vie) My apologies, I didn't pick up on how significant the change in the "daily" limits were. To be perfectly honest I'm not sure how you can balance the wizard to the fighter at really high levels, the level 9 spells are just that overpowering (no fghtr v wiz debates pls). The problem you are attempting to correct is more fundemental to high level DnD although I think your method is a very good start. I have never DMed any adventures or campaigns that high leveled in DnD so maybe this isn't the best advice but I think encounters need to be very specially tailored so that both the fighters and wizs can shine. Perhaps making a special effort to include high SR creatures, high level counterspellers & dispellers, anti-magic effects and other wiz hampering encounters so the martial characters have more opportunities.
Seerow 08-28-06, 04:55 PM	I have never DMed any adventures or campaigns that high leveled in DnD so maybe this isn't the best advice but I think encounters need to be very specially tailored so that both the fighters and wizs can shine. Perhaps making a special effort to include high SR creatures, high level counterspellers & dispellers, anti-magic effects and other wiz hampering encounters so the martial characters have more opportunities. The trouble with this is while it works in theory, in practice it doesn't really help against a smart Wizard player. There's plenty of no SR spells, which conveniently get around magic immunity. Dispelling is generally inneffective no matter what you care to do, even worse in high level play when caster level is getting pumped to 25-30 and dispel caps at 20, and Antimagic hurts the Fighters, who rely on equipment, just as much as it hurts the Wizard. Besides that, I'm sure to go along with this a power up to melee warriors would still be in order. Like you said, 9th level spells are just that powerful that even if restricted to once per encounter, you may not need much more, and it certainly makes the buffed cleric more appealing, even with the restriction on buffing spellslots.
LordPendragon 08-29-06, 10:33 AM	My apologies, I didn't pick up on how significant the change in the "daily" limits were.Not a problem. Seerow... I'm currently playing around with making the spell progression more parabolic, probably ending with 9/7/5/4/3/2/1/1/1 for the Wizard. Maybe even a shallower parabolic progression, like 5/4/3/3/2/2/1/1/1 What do you think??
Seerow 08-29-06, 02:45 PM	It really depends on what's gained when, that's the trouble. There needs to be appreciable gain from level to level. Looking at what you currently have there's no reason to play a Wizard with more than 17th level, which makes Gishes a lot more powerful (As you can afford to lose 3 full caster levels with relatively minimal loss. 1 or 2 mid level slots per encounter compared to 3 high level slots per day), just the sort of things that need attention. Of course, giving actual class abilities to the casters could balance out this progression. I could definitely see that sort of progression very much worth it if the Wizard still had some sort of ability he missed out on for not making it to 20th level. Of course, this also goes back to what sort of abilities could you give without unbalancing things, what sort of things would the fighters need to counteract it... You know I support the idea, it just requires more change than just the spell progression to really work properly. The gains at each level become too minimal when you reduce things that much, so there should be something else there as well to encourage staying in the class. Still leaves the problems of a Gish, but taking the first caster level away from all PrCs probably takes care of that (Most Gishes would need a dip into Fighter then at least two, possibly 3 prestige classes, so they're really cutting it close and not getting their 9th level spells til 20th level, if at all)
LordPendragon 08-29-06, 02:59 PM	I think part of the solution is going to be moving spell access back a level, maybe even 2. That'll make it easier to even out, and give an appreciable benefit at the high levels. Want a level 9 spell?? Better get 19 caster levels, or you're out of luck!! Losing that high level spell might be a kick in the junk for gishes. Doesn't matter though, since they probably wouldn't have the 28 Cha/Int/Wis required to cast that spell anyways.