Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Demonwolf 04-24-06, 04:51 PM	I'm planning on running a campaign where raising and resurrecting the dead isn't possible for the sake of the setting, since peasants and adventurers aren't that far apart in terms of wealth and social status, not to mention the fact that the setting needs to maintain ambiguity about the presence of gods, the afterlife and the holiness of divine classes, and finally, since I feel rezzing spells cheapen the impact of death in the context of the world. On the other hand, PC death is more often than not devastating to the plot. the PCs are usually important to their setting somehow, being thigns such as fledgeling/lost royalty, rebel half-breed leaders who have the trust of a violently persecuted minority, local vigilantes of repute, hereditary guardians of deadly artifacts, and such other roles that are hard to reconcile with new characters. While the plotlines could be reconciled with new characters, it's a humongous pain and usually messes with the mood of the running storyline. So I'm trying to figure out an alternative way to handle character death. Couple of ideas thus far- 1. 'Continues' a la console RPGs. Players may or may not have an unlimited reservoir of these, and whenever their characters die, they can restart at the beginning of the dungeon/fight/chapter of the campaign they're in (not sure which). This would cheapen death to the players, but it would keep the story going, atleast. 2. In addition to disabled and dying, add 'clinically dead', meaning that in the context of the setting, the character is dead, but the death is a result of a wound that can be repaired fairly easily by healing magic. With healing enough to restore the body to a functional state as well a defibrillator-like positive energy kick-start, the character can be restored to life. In game mechanics, this would essentially equate the rezzing spels. To cause true, irrepairable death, you would have to coup-de-grace, and even that would have a 1-in-6 chance of being successful. 3. 'Severely wounded'. This basically means that a character can't participate in a fight until proper care is administered, but they're alive. This just means that they come back with 1 HP at the end of the fight. Criticism? Suggestions? Comments?
IceFractal 04-24-06, 10:29 PM	One thing I'd change is save-or-die abilities, both spells and monster powers. Instead of immediate death, you drop to negative HP and start dying as normal, which would give a chance to save people. Also, I'd expand the amount of negative HP you can go into. Instead of -10, you could go to -Con and still recover, and some classes like the Barbarian would get bonuses to this (maybe 1/2 your class level). Once past that, you could go twice that low before perma-death, but you wouldn't be able to recover naturally anymore - healing magic would be needed, and you might come back with lasting injuries (stat loss, only curable by repeated healing spells over a period of time). Depending on how lethal your battles are, you could even let people go farther into the negatives and come back, but the farther below they'd been, the more powerful the healing spells needed and the more severe the lasting injuries.
Merestil Haye 04-24-06, 11:09 PM	There is no way to raise dead in my games. I deal with this as follows. Creatures cannot be taken from active (positive HP) to dead in one single blow. If this would happen, instead the character is on -9hp and dying, The character dies one round later, without possibility of stabilisation. The only thing that can save the character is magical healing applied before the character is reduced to -10hp. Creatures reduced to between -1 and -9hp who then drop to -10 because of further damage received (whether a blow from an attack, spell damage or simple bleeding) die immediately. No death by massive damage. Instant-kill effects receive a second saving throw, at the same DC. If this succeeds the character is on -9 and dying. Again, magical healing applied within the same round will save the character. Vorpal swords are a particular problem. My current, as yet untested, rule is that the victim gets a reflex save (DC 10+2 per 10 points of damage dealt) to evade the decapitation effect. The exact rate of increase of the DC is open to adjustment, but one character in my game is quite capable of dealing in excess of 100 points of damage on a normal hit and I dont want it to be impossible for enemies to succeed.) Spells such as Power Word Kill and powers such as the Death domain power have their success thresholds reduced by 10 (creatures die at -10 hp not 0). Hope that gives you some ideas.
Millenia 04-24-06, 11:24 PM	One thing I'd change is save-or-die abilities, both spells and monster powers. Instead of immediate death, you drop to negative HP and start dying as normal, which would give a chance to save people. Also, I'd expand the amount of negative HP you can go into. Instead of -10, you could go to -Con and still recover, and some classes like the Barbarian would get bonuses to this (maybe 1/2 your class level). Once past that, you could go twice that low before perma-death, but you wouldn't be able to recover naturally anymore - healing magic would be needed, and you might come back with lasting injuries (stat loss, only curable by repeated healing spells over a period of time). Depending on how lethal your battles are, you could even let people go farther into the negatives and come back, but the farther below they'd been, the more powerful the healing spells needed and the more severe the lasting injuries. One of the GMs in my games has a houserule that one dies at (-10 - character level) HP. Pretty fair for all classes, I think.
Crystal Monk 04-24-06, 11:26 PM	here's a tiny rule change that could help you quite a bit: when rolling HP at level-up, everyone always gets at least half their hit die before applying the CON bonus. this is a minor thing but ensures that your PCs will live longer. I did this in my old campaign, which was also resurrection-free due to the rule of a nature goddess. I think your "clinically dead" and "severely wounded" ideas are good ones, it seems like they'll keep combat hazardous without it being so fatal. I'm not sure what you mean about the coup de grace having a 1-in-6 chance of being fatal, though, could you explain that better? and I think you should pass on the idea of "continues" and the like. while some video game elements can work in D&D, I really think something like that would break the immersion, and would take a lot of the worry out of possible death if you knew you'd just show up somewhere back a ways. however, if you made the "continue" effect into a kind of spell or magic item, that could be something. a spell that, when you drop to 0 or fewer HP, teleports you to a pre-designated safe place (if you're close enough) and either heals or stabilizes you... that could work, and if death is permanent, it makes sense that it would exist in that world. and finally, I really like IceFractal's modification of save-or-die spells, I might have to make that a rule in my upcoming game just to negate the cheese factor of spells like that.
Demonwolf 04-24-06, 11:58 PM	These are all good, but my main concern is that the PCs are, more often than not, vital to the plot and their death (that is, true death) should be as unfeasible as it is in your typical console RPG. What I'm trying to do is basically have death mean as much to the players as it would in a world where resurrection is doable, without interrupting the continuity of the storyline.
Nor'Morgwae 04-25-06, 01:27 AM	I have thought about this before. One of the ideas I had was a stage like "death's doorstep" or "I'm not quite dead yet" or something. Essentially how it would work is if a PC (or other major hero, so this assumes a heroic game) 'dies' in game terms they have not actually passed on yet. They are either slowly succumbing to their wounds or they may be outwordly dead but their spirit hasn't left them yet. Then you can use Raise Dead (you would probably rename the spell, it just uses the same mechanics) to revive them. This means that once some one is dead-dead, they are done for but if they are only mostly dead then there is still a chance to save them if you get them to a healer in time. All in all it works a lot like death in The Princess Bride... Another option was that instead of dying they could accept some sort of terrible wound or something (like the loss of a hand or an eye) that they have to deal with in the future. If you choose this option I would give Regeneration a hefty material component.
Darth Sephiroth 04-25-06, 02:34 AM	Another option would be to do away with the normal resurection spells and make them Incantations with very high DCs and extremely rare and costly components and relics to use for them.
lostone 04-25-06, 08:29 AM	I've been toying with the idea of a resurrection free game for a while. Some things I've thought about using (accumulated over time, some are my own ideas others are not): Characters don't die at -10 hit points, instead they die at -(10 or their constitution, whichever is more beneficial to the PC). Save or die spells and other death effects (vorpal weapons, etc) are used very sparingly, and the DC is reduced to something survivable by the PCs if it would normally be too high for them. No "Death by massive damage" If a character is killed by damage, they can be healed back to life by healing magic within 2 rounds (basically giving the cleric time to act if they aren't standing by the dead character's side). This is similar to doctors using defibrilators, a shot of adrenaline, etc to bring back someone who is clinically dead. The character might be "dead", but so recently that healing magic will restart the heart, seal the wounds, and make the character functional enough to leave the battlefield. In the above situation a character healed back from death's door that has less than 25% of their total hit points restored is staggered and, if they're smart, will do their best to leave the battle to recover. This is similar to someone who has lost a lot of blood and are weak, ashen skin, etc. An idea I picked up from another DM (don't know where he got the idea from or if they are his own idea) are "Grace of God" points. Basically at the beginning of the game when characters are being created, the DM secretly rolls 1d6-1 for each character. That is how many Grace of God points each character gets, they do not know this number but they know that the points are a possibility. When a character dies and there is no way for them to survive by the game mechanics, they can use a grace of god point to somehow survive. Maybe the damage they took wasn't enough to kill them, instead they are at -9 hp and miraculously stabilized. That energy drain attack didn't reduce their Con to 0, just to 1. Just enough to keep them from dying.
Wargamer 04-25-06, 08:57 AM	Introduce Fate Points. Characters can expend a Fate Point to evade a disasterous situation. This isn't a "okay, it never happened" fix, but rather a "y instead of x" fix. For example, let's say a Paladin gets decapitated by a Vorpal sword. He can expend a Fate Point to escape death... so instead of killing him, his opponent knocked him unconcious, or he lost an eye, or a limb, or whatever...
Thelon Fairblade 04-25-06, 12:03 PM	IMC, I used to hand out Fate Points or Escape Points, and that is exactly what they did. Spend a point, escape your (doomed) fate. However, to keep PCs from being foolhardy, but allowed to be heroic, you can only expend 1 Escape Point per encounter... you can return to the fray, if you wish, but the next lethal blow really will be lethal! In another campaign, which dealt with the players as pawns of a godwar, the goddess of death was "sitting out". Each pawn received 3 "Get out of Hell Free Cards", returning to life roughly an hour after death, usually with some significant or permanent token of the death. One character had horrible burn scars all over her body after being killed and roasted by a tribe of kobolds; another was blind for 2 months of game time (6 months of play time), and a third lost his voice after a stab through the throat. (The villians likewise had GooHF cards, but the party eventually learned to stick around for an hour or so after a victory, and kill the BBEG again...) Now we use Action Points, and I allow them to spend Action Points to influence a fatal blow. For example, spending an action Point to gain "improved Toughness" for one round, thus gaining 1 extra hp per level for a round. Or spending an action point to outright reduce the damage from the fatal blow, or improve your saving throw against the save-or-die spell. But luck still runs out Last night, the barbarian was completely out of Action Points due to a disastrous encounter earlier in the day. She bravely went toe to toe with a Barbarian Hill Giant... the first round of blows took her to 9 hp. Rather than retreat and expose the cleric and mage to the giant, she remained in place. The next hit inflicted 28 damage. She was buried on the field of battle, her sapphire necklace and ring of nobility packed away to return to her mother, and her magic items reclaimed by the party. After 15 months of play, the character was dead, and we moved on. (If she had had Action Points, she could have spent 1 for an extra use of Rage for the day, or gotten Improved Toughness so the cleric could reach her; directly reducing the damage wouldn't have helped in this case.)
Coren 04-25-06, 06:41 PM	An idea i've heard before is that characters do not die. Instead they must be taken to a inn or hospital until they are at least in the positive hit points. When a character is below -10 they cannot be healed by magic.
FlameLover 04-25-06, 07:25 PM	Reading this thread i got the following idea: When you reach -10 HP your at Death's Door. In one round you're dead, permanently. If your healed to -9 or above you act as normal for that amount of HP. This means you always have 1 round to save someone before they die. Also, once someone is saved from Death's Door, roll 1d6. Subtract 1 from the ability score rolled 1-6 going down the list on the character sheet. This is permanent loss, and cannot be fixed even with a Wish or Miracle. In the game world they have suffered an injury, whether physical or mental from the experience, and will never fully recover. I havn't playtested it yet, but in conjunction with some of those Save or Die fixes sounds like a no-rez solution to me.
Delfedd 04-26-06, 12:18 AM	Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do. There's your solution. Once someone reaches -10, he's slightly dead. -20, partialy dead. -30, mostly dead. -40 and beyond is all dead. You can have revifying spells which return someone from mostly dead to 0 hp. he heals 1 hp a minute. He cannot move most of his body until he has reached 10 HP (or max, whichever is lower) naturaly, without the aid of magical healing.
Bhairavi 04-27-06, 01:50 AM	Flamelover wrote: When you reach -10 HP your at Death's Door. In one round you're dead, permanently. If your healed to -9 or above you act as normal for that amount of HP. This means you always have 1 round to save someone before they die. Also, once someone is saved from Death's Door, roll 1d6. Subtract 1 from the ability score rolled 1-6 going down the list on the character sheet. This is permanent loss, and cannot be fixed even with a Wish or Miracle. In the game world they have suffered an injury, whether physical or mental from the experience, and will never fully recover. Flamelover, I love it . . . its . . cruel . . . wonderfully cruel. It makes my cold, dark heart light up in delight. I think a version is going in my house rules (I have a no-rez homebrew world) . . . I think that the no Wish or Miracle is a little harsh though . . . I mean, if you can't fix a nasty injury with a miracle, what a pathetic miracle :P
FlameLover 04-27-06, 02:20 AM	If you allow a Wish or Miracle to fix it, though, i recommend you have to pay 100xHD XP. It should really sting when it happens, no matter how heroic you are.
Bhairavi 04-27-06, 02:44 AM	Good Solution that.