How do the Gestalt rules handle LA? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How do the Gestalt rules handle LA? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ozymandias V.
10-20-05, 04:40 PM How do the Gestalt rules handle Level Adjustment? You can't just treat LA as 'levels' since there's no particular level at which most creatures gain their powers and only Racial Hit Dice could be used in the replacement process.

And please, don't suggest the Monsters as a Class thing like in Savage Species. That only works for monsters that already have an official level progression.
Crimson_Concerto
10-20-05, 05:18 PM How do the Gestalt rules handle Level Adjustment? You can't just treat LA as 'levels' since there's no particular level at which most creatures gain their powers and only Racial Hit Dice could be used in the replacement process.

I would say the LA only applies to one side of the Gestalt, or split it between the sides. Having it apply to both sides would make the character underpowered.

And please, don't suggest the Monsters as a Class thing like in Savage Species. That only works for monsters that already have an official level progression.

uhh, Savage Species made those up, and can you. Besides, what creature could you possibly be playing that isn't handled in Savage Species? Tell us what creature you mean, and maybe we could help you come up with something.
Ozymandias V.
10-20-05, 05:28 PM Heh, I just realized something: I can't start at a level lower than my ECL, so I just gain free levels in another class equal to the starting ECL of the creature.

I guess I answered my own question. ^__^;
Cynlas
10-20-05, 06:44 PM Eh??? How did you come to that particular conclusion? A LA is not in any way a character level, but an adjustment which is meant to adjust the amount of XP you need to attain an actual character level. As such, you cannot really be a Drow Ranger 1-Sorcerer 3 Gestalt, as the +2 Drow LA is NOT a character level. You would be a Drow Ranger-Sorcerer 1, but earning XP as a character with an ECL of Three.

To do what you are suggesting is what would happen if you were a Gnoll or some such (that actually have racial hit dice), where part of their ECL is actually made up of Hit Die (ie Levels) plus a LA of +1 (IIRC), in which case you could be a Gnoll Ranger 3- Gnoll 2/Sorcerer 1, with a total ECL of 4 (due to the remaining LA of +1).

The LA affects pretty specific things, and the "Effective" in "ECL" likewise impacts very specific attributes of a character, and itself is not an "actual" level, therefore it cannot, even in the case of Gestalts, replace an actual class level.

The only things the LA (and the resulting ECL) affect are XP gained/needed per level; Starting Gold; Starting Class Level of the character; and the Party Average Level when determining the amount of XP revceived from an encounter. They have no effect on things like Base Saves, Base Attack, Skill Points earned or maximums, Feat progressions, or any other class based statistic or attribute. They are not "real" or "actual" levels, but merely a bookeeping element used to balance things, like the discrepancy between a Drow and a High Elf, that are otherwise imbalanced.

Such a measure also does not deflate the real value of the character; as in a Gestalt campaign, everything experiences the same "deflation", keeping the whole balanced in relative matters. The mentioned "deflation" would only matter if that Gestalt Character is transported out of a gestalt Campaign, and is being compared to "normal" non-gestalt characters and encounters.
Ozymandias V.
10-20-05, 09:48 PM The point is that you can't apply an LA to BOTH sides of a gestalt because that is inherently unbalanced against the player. The only effective way to do it properly would be to cut the LA in half and have it count as both classes. Or have a ClassA 1 + LA 3/Class B 4 style setup.

The LA is based on the effectiveness of a character in a single class system. As such applying it to both sides of a gestalt would make the character weaker overall.

forcing someone with an LA of +3 to apply it to BOTH sides of the Gestalt is the same as making them spend their first three levels in a SINGLE character class.
Psychoticpsymon
10-20-05, 10:41 PM So you're saying the person is half trained as a ______?

I vote la on both sides. Gestalt is inherently overpowered, @ the guy who thinks of it nerfing.

I can see it another way as well, except that LA also includes race, which is static, even as a gestalt character.

Dual race gestalt character is the only way i can see this working. Half Kobold half ______? Sign me up :D

Edit: Or split the LA between both sides. That was a good one too. (Props to other poster)
Jaerom Darkwind
10-20-05, 10:45 PM However, arguably LA levels are more powerful than character levels in a gestault build, because a class level, including HD, BAB, saves, and skill points, is as powerful as just the abilities of the LA "level". So adding the normal HD benefits to a LA level (IE, the other class's HD) overpowers the combination.

LA levels are essentially a set of super-powered class features. So the only balanced way to handle them is to combine them with "underpowered" levels to balance it out--in other words, racial HD. So the LA grants enough abilities for two classes, and the HD round off the levels.

A race with racial HD and LA, such as the doppelganger (4 HD/+4 LA) can split them up on both sides (so, ECL +4). Other races, such as aasimar, gain racial HD equal to their LA (so, she'd be an aasimar-outsider 1).
Ozymandias V.
10-20-05, 11:39 PM Okay, the best idea I've heard so far is that the Racial Hit Dice are Gestalt'd as if they were a class, and the rest of the ECL applies normally to both sides.

That seems fair enough.
Cynlas
10-21-05, 02:03 AM Racial Hit Dice are Gestalt'd as if they were a class, and the rest of the ECL applies normally to both sides.

That seems fair enough.

Yup.

Also the RAW way of doing it. The "Official FAQ" has a good section on clearing up the fuzzy definitions that are being thrown around in regards to what an "LA" is, as it is distinct from an "ECL", and as they are both distinct from "CL". I think that reviewing it you will be more comfortable with this "final" (or should I simply say "current"?) conclusion as the distinct definitions of each of these terms becomes more clear to you.
Tyler Do'Urden
10-21-05, 05:12 AM Part of the point of level adjustments is to punish players. You make it harder for the more exotic races to be good adventurers as a mechanical means of explaining why the realms aren't filled with ogremage sorcerers and troll barbarians.

I reccomend halving level adjustments and having them work as normal. Racial hit dice are not class levels.
Drognar
10-21-05, 07:34 AM For my current campaign, I ruled that you take 0.75 of the race LA (round up), as half seems a bit to small of a penalty. Racial HD can be taken on one side of the gestalt, as long as your total HD is at least as big as the racial HD.
Jaerom Darkwind
10-21-05, 02:35 PM Part of the point of level adjustments is to punish players.I'm glad neither you nor the WotC R&D guys are in my gaming group. Part of the point of D&D is to have fun, and that includes playing the character you want to play. The rules shouldn't try to punish people who do that.
Ozymandias V.
10-21-05, 03:48 PM Aye, it has NOTHING to do with punishing the players. LA is there for mechanical balance.

DnD =/= DM vs PCs
Barloch
10-22-05, 08:19 PM So Jaerom if I'm reading your post right you say that the best way to handle LA would be to add in HD where none previously existed and to match existing HD with LA for the two "sides" of a gestalt character? So something like say a lycanthrope (something I'm thinking of playing so thats why its my example. :P ) would have its HD and LA take both "sides" of the gestalt character mandatorily and after all the LA is taken care of you take the HD and add a "side" of a class? Then after all the remaining racial HD are taken care of you add in another class to your mixture like a normal gestalt with no LA.

And with something that has straight LA, say a half-ogre, you'd take its two LA and add two giant racial hit dice along with all the apropriate saves attacks etc and use them as both "sides" of a gestalt for two levels then just take character levels as normal.

Me and my gaming buddies are thinking of playing our first gestalt game because we're down to two, maybe three players and the DM so we need some more oomph (older friends are all away at college :( ). And I was wondering how LA is handled and I think the way I read that you posted is probably the best way and I'm pretty sure my DM would agree.
Jaerom Darkwind
10-22-05, 09:08 PM Yup, that's it. In the case you mentioned, where HD outnumber LA, I might be tempted to stick the racial HD on both sides of the gestault until they're used up. But I've never had to test such a theory, so I don't know if that would be a good idea or not.
Barloch
10-22-05, 09:31 PM Maybe breaking the gestalt rules and just granting class abilities but using the racial HD size BAB and saves would be appropriate? I'd really have to run this all by my DM first but I'd imagine he wouldn't have a problem with it when I explain to him how horribly penalizing using the standard ECL rules a character would be in a gestalt campaign.
Barloch
10-25-05, 07:51 PM Yea I think breaking the normal gestalt rules and applying the racial HD size BAB and saves (regardless of if they're lower then the classes) with a classes abilities is suitable because the actual LA forces you to lose that many levels on both "sides" of the class but gaining at least some HD so you aren't taking as big a hit, but its about an even penalty when matched with a normal characters ECL rules. Like I made a dire lion lycantrhope of ecl 14 and used that set up and I think it came out balanced for gestalt. Because a dire animal has all the same stats (HD save BAB wise) as monk it was kind of like being forced to take monk on both "sides" of the build, but after I figured in all the HD and ECL (11th level for natural lycanthrope dire lion) I started to add in another "side" of prestige classes and used the normal gestalt rules from there I think it came out fine but I'm going to recheck my work to make sure I did everything right because I think I added more class levels then I should have on one "side."

Anyway though I'd say thats the way to go so my build ended up looking like (in descending order starting with 1st level)
LA/Dire lion HD1
LA/Dire lion HD2
LA/Dire lion HD3
Monk1/Dire lion HD4
Monk2/Dire lion HD5
Monk3/Dire lion HD6
Monk4/Dire lion HD7
Monk5/Dire lion HD8 (last HD)
Monk6/warshaper1
Monk7/warshaper2
Monk8/warshaper3
Monk9/warshaper4
Monk10/Initiate of Draconic Mysteries1
Monk11/Initiate of Draconic Mysteries2

This is one of my first gestalt chars so I hope I did the prestige classes right. But anyway the Dire lion HD replaced the monks BAB saves and HD size (well they're actually the same so it didn't make a whole lot of diffrence there but I didn't get to add a diffrent class with other features or beter BAB or spellcasting or whatever so I think it compensates).
Worguron
10-25-05, 11:29 PM Here is how my DM does it.

If the creature has racial hit die, you gestalt those hit die with a class that fits with the type of creature (ie. Spellless ranger class for Lycanthropes, Thri-Kreen, etc.) For the Level Adjustment, he will determine exactly how powerful the abilities of the creature truly make the character (for example my Noble/Sorceror got bitten by a Weretiger, and because he was not at all a combat related character, he only gained a +1 LA which applies to both sides of the Gestalt).

Right now my character looks something like this:

Sorc/Noble
Sorc/Noble
Sorc/Noble
Sorc/Noble
Sorc/Noble
Sorc/Noble
Sorc/Noble
Sorc/Noble
Tiger/Ranger
Tiger/Ranger
Tiger/Ranger
Tiger/Ranger
Tiger/Ranger
Tiger/Ranger
Sorc/Noble
LA/LA

ECL 16 character
Ozymandias V.
10-26-05, 12:45 PM The problem with that method is that it REQUIRES the DM's adjudication.
Tyler Do'Urden
10-27-05, 07:41 PM I'm glad neither you nor the WotC R&D guys are in my gaming group. Part of the point of D&D is to have fun, and that includes playing the character you want to play. The rules shouldn't try to punish people who do that.

Well perhaps I was too harsh, but the fact is it's not supposed to be easy to play nonstandard creatures. I guarantee only applying level adjustment to one side overpowers an already overpowered game type.
Ian Delor
11-01-05, 05:56 PM In the gestalt campaign I DM, we keep it simple by making the level adjustment just go up one side. Because we were trying to keep it simple, I didn't allow any characters to take more than a LA +1 class, but now that we're farther into the campaign, I have been building more and more NPCs with highers LA's. I simply use the level adjustment (+8 for a Vampire, for instance), and apply it as one side of the character class.

Contrary to what I think I've been reading in this thread, that actually makes the character weaker, rather than stronger, because there are no hit dice in the Vampire template, and as a result, no base save bonuses, no skill points, no feats or anything related to class levels, really. That's because that template adds no hit dice, though.

Part of the overpowered nature of a gestalt campaign (I've learned as this campaign has progressed), is how uber-powered the characters' saving throws get, because you always take the better bonus at each level. All the people in my campaign agreed that that meant if, at a particular character level, your fortitude went up one in one class, but none in another, your character's base save in fortitude went up. In my campaign, where everyone took a one level template, that offset the save progression just enough to make everyone's saves AWESOME. That was how the whole group understood the stock gestalt rules to work, though.

If a template has no hit dice, you are adding opportunities for those saves to go up, because saves, BAB, and skills increase with hit dice. You would effectively be raising the LA of a template if you add HD to a template that normally has none, in my estimation. The LA of the adjusted template would be somewhere between the stated LA and the stated LA plus the new added HD.

The issue becomes much more complicated with the were-template, though, because the template adds more hit dice than the level adjustment. Am I to understand that the level adjustment should be added to the hit dice. Is that correct?
Ectoplasmoid
11-02-05, 01:26 AM The only sensible way to do it is as a normal class. So a Rakshasa Gestalted with Monk would have 14 Monk on one side, and 7 Outsider+7 LA on the other side. LA levels are balanced with normal ones just fine.
Ian Delor
11-02-05, 09:03 AM I totally agree. That's why a level 8 fighter who is a vampire gains experience as a 16th level character: he's essentially supposed to be as powerful as a 16th level character, as I understand it. In a gestalt campaign, that same character is only 8th level, because the 8 levels of vampire can be gained at the same time as the 8 levels of fighter. The fighter/vampire is still balanced with a gestalt character that took 8 class levels instead of vampire, though, because the fighter got no base save bonus or anything like that from the vampire levels.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ozymandias V. 10-20-05, 04:40 PM	How do the Gestalt rules handle Level Adjustment? You can't just treat LA as 'levels' since there's no particular level at which most creatures gain their powers and only Racial Hit Dice could be used in the replacement process. And please, don't suggest the Monsters as a Class thing like in Savage Species. That only works for monsters that already have an official level progression.
Crimson_Concerto 10-20-05, 05:18 PM	How do the Gestalt rules handle Level Adjustment? You can't just treat LA as 'levels' since there's no particular level at which most creatures gain their powers and only Racial Hit Dice could be used in the replacement process. I would say the LA only applies to one side of the Gestalt, or split it between the sides. Having it apply to both sides would make the character underpowered. And please, don't suggest the Monsters as a Class thing like in Savage Species. That only works for monsters that already have an official level progression. uhh, Savage Species made those up, and can you. Besides, what creature could you possibly be playing that isn't handled in Savage Species? Tell us what creature you mean, and maybe we could help you come up with something.
Ozymandias V. 10-20-05, 05:28 PM	Heh, I just realized something: I can't start at a level lower than my ECL, so I just gain free levels in another class equal to the starting ECL of the creature. I guess I answered my own question. ^__^;
Cynlas 10-20-05, 06:44 PM	Eh??? How did you come to that particular conclusion? A LA is not in any way a character level, but an adjustment which is meant to adjust the amount of XP you need to attain an actual character level. As such, you cannot really be a Drow Ranger 1-Sorcerer 3 Gestalt, as the +2 Drow LA is NOT a character level. You would be a Drow Ranger-Sorcerer 1, but earning XP as a character with an ECL of Three. To do what you are suggesting is what would happen if you were a Gnoll or some such (that actually have racial hit dice), where part of their ECL is actually made up of Hit Die (ie Levels) plus a LA of +1 (IIRC), in which case you could be a Gnoll Ranger 3- Gnoll 2/Sorcerer 1, with a total ECL of 4 (due to the remaining LA of +1). The LA affects pretty specific things, and the "Effective" in "ECL" likewise impacts very specific attributes of a character, and itself is not an "actual" level, therefore it cannot, even in the case of Gestalts, replace an actual class level. The only things the LA (and the resulting ECL) affect are XP gained/needed per level; Starting Gold; Starting Class Level of the character; and the Party Average Level when determining the amount of XP revceived from an encounter. They have no effect on things like Base Saves, Base Attack, Skill Points earned or maximums, Feat progressions, or any other class based statistic or attribute. They are not "real" or "actual" levels, but merely a bookeeping element used to balance things, like the discrepancy between a Drow and a High Elf, that are otherwise imbalanced. Such a measure also does not deflate the real value of the character; as in a Gestalt campaign, everything experiences the same "deflation", keeping the whole balanced in relative matters. The mentioned "deflation" would only matter if that Gestalt Character is transported out of a gestalt Campaign, and is being compared to "normal" non-gestalt characters and encounters.
Ozymandias V. 10-20-05, 09:48 PM	The point is that you can't apply an LA to BOTH sides of a gestalt because that is inherently unbalanced against the player. The only effective way to do it properly would be to cut the LA in half and have it count as both classes. Or have a ClassA 1 + LA 3/Class B 4 style setup. The LA is based on the effectiveness of a character in a single class system. As such applying it to both sides of a gestalt would make the character weaker overall. forcing someone with an LA of +3 to apply it to BOTH sides of the Gestalt is the same as making them spend their first three levels in a SINGLE character class.
Psychoticpsymon 10-20-05, 10:41 PM	So you're saying the person is half trained as a ______? I vote la on both sides. Gestalt is inherently overpowered, @ the guy who thinks of it nerfing. I can see it another way as well, except that LA also includes race, which is static, even as a gestalt character. Dual race gestalt character is the only way i can see this working. Half Kobold half ______? Sign me up :D Edit: Or split the LA between both sides. That was a good one too. (Props to other poster)
Jaerom Darkwind 10-20-05, 10:45 PM	However, arguably LA levels are more powerful than character levels in a gestault build, because a class level, including HD, BAB, saves, and skill points, is as powerful as just the abilities of the LA "level". So adding the normal HD benefits to a LA level (IE, the other class's HD) overpowers the combination. LA levels are essentially a set of super-powered class features. So the only balanced way to handle them is to combine them with "underpowered" levels to balance it out--in other words, racial HD. So the LA grants enough abilities for two classes, and the HD round off the levels. A race with racial HD and LA, such as the doppelganger (4 HD/+4 LA) can split them up on both sides (so, ECL +4). Other races, such as aasimar, gain racial HD equal to their LA (so, she'd be an aasimar-outsider 1).
Ozymandias V. 10-20-05, 11:39 PM	Okay, the best idea I've heard so far is that the Racial Hit Dice are Gestalt'd as if they were a class, and the rest of the ECL applies normally to both sides. That seems fair enough.
Cynlas 10-21-05, 02:03 AM	Racial Hit Dice are Gestalt'd as if they were a class, and the rest of the ECL applies normally to both sides. That seems fair enough. Yup. Also the RAW way of doing it. The "Official FAQ" has a good section on clearing up the fuzzy definitions that are being thrown around in regards to what an "LA" is, as it is distinct from an "ECL", and as they are both distinct from "CL". I think that reviewing it you will be more comfortable with this "final" (or should I simply say "current"?) conclusion as the distinct definitions of each of these terms becomes more clear to you.
Tyler Do'Urden 10-21-05, 05:12 AM	Part of the point of level adjustments is to punish players. You make it harder for the more exotic races to be good adventurers as a mechanical means of explaining why the realms aren't filled with ogremage sorcerers and troll barbarians. I reccomend halving level adjustments and having them work as normal. Racial hit dice are not class levels.
Drognar 10-21-05, 07:34 AM	For my current campaign, I ruled that you take 0.75 of the race LA (round up), as half seems a bit to small of a penalty. Racial HD can be taken on one side of the gestalt, as long as your total HD is at least as big as the racial HD.
Jaerom Darkwind 10-21-05, 02:35 PM	Part of the point of level adjustments is to punish players.I'm glad neither you nor the WotC R&D guys are in my gaming group. Part of the point of D&D is to have fun, and that includes playing the character you want to play. The rules shouldn't try to punish people who do that.
Ozymandias V. 10-21-05, 03:48 PM	Aye, it has NOTHING to do with punishing the players. LA is there for mechanical balance. DnD =/= DM vs PCs
Barloch 10-22-05, 08:19 PM	So Jaerom if I'm reading your post right you say that the best way to handle LA would be to add in HD where none previously existed and to match existing HD with LA for the two "sides" of a gestalt character? So something like say a lycanthrope (something I'm thinking of playing so thats why its my example. :P ) would have its HD and LA take both "sides" of the gestalt character mandatorily and after all the LA is taken care of you take the HD and add a "side" of a class? Then after all the remaining racial HD are taken care of you add in another class to your mixture like a normal gestalt with no LA. And with something that has straight LA, say a half-ogre, you'd take its two LA and add two giant racial hit dice along with all the apropriate saves attacks etc and use them as both "sides" of a gestalt for two levels then just take character levels as normal. Me and my gaming buddies are thinking of playing our first gestalt game because we're down to two, maybe three players and the DM so we need some more oomph (older friends are all away at college :( ). And I was wondering how LA is handled and I think the way I read that you posted is probably the best way and I'm pretty sure my DM would agree.
Jaerom Darkwind 10-22-05, 09:08 PM	Yup, that's it. In the case you mentioned, where HD outnumber LA, I might be tempted to stick the racial HD on both sides of the gestault until they're used up. But I've never had to test such a theory, so I don't know if that would be a good idea or not.
Barloch 10-22-05, 09:31 PM	Maybe breaking the gestalt rules and just granting class abilities but using the racial HD size BAB and saves would be appropriate? I'd really have to run this all by my DM first but I'd imagine he wouldn't have a problem with it when I explain to him how horribly penalizing using the standard ECL rules a character would be in a gestalt campaign.
Barloch 10-25-05, 07:51 PM	Yea I think breaking the normal gestalt rules and applying the racial HD size BAB and saves (regardless of if they're lower then the classes) with a classes abilities is suitable because the actual LA forces you to lose that many levels on both "sides" of the class but gaining at least some HD so you aren't taking as big a hit, but its about an even penalty when matched with a normal characters ECL rules. Like I made a dire lion lycantrhope of ecl 14 and used that set up and I think it came out balanced for gestalt. Because a dire animal has all the same stats (HD save BAB wise) as monk it was kind of like being forced to take monk on both "sides" of the build, but after I figured in all the HD and ECL (11th level for natural lycanthrope dire lion) I started to add in another "side" of prestige classes and used the normal gestalt rules from there I think it came out fine but I'm going to recheck my work to make sure I did everything right because I think I added more class levels then I should have on one "side." Anyway though I'd say thats the way to go so my build ended up looking like (in descending order starting with 1st level) LA/Dire lion HD1 LA/Dire lion HD2 LA/Dire lion HD3 Monk1/Dire lion HD4 Monk2/Dire lion HD5 Monk3/Dire lion HD6 Monk4/Dire lion HD7 Monk5/Dire lion HD8 (last HD) Monk6/warshaper1 Monk7/warshaper2 Monk8/warshaper3 Monk9/warshaper4 Monk10/Initiate of Draconic Mysteries1 Monk11/Initiate of Draconic Mysteries2 This is one of my first gestalt chars so I hope I did the prestige classes right. But anyway the Dire lion HD replaced the monks BAB saves and HD size (well they're actually the same so it didn't make a whole lot of diffrence there but I didn't get to add a diffrent class with other features or beter BAB or spellcasting or whatever so I think it compensates).
Worguron 10-25-05, 11:29 PM	Here is how my DM does it. If the creature has racial hit die, you gestalt those hit die with a class that fits with the type of creature (ie. Spellless ranger class for Lycanthropes, Thri-Kreen, etc.) For the Level Adjustment, he will determine exactly how powerful the abilities of the creature truly make the character (for example my Noble/Sorceror got bitten by a Weretiger, and because he was not at all a combat related character, he only gained a +1 LA which applies to both sides of the Gestalt). Right now my character looks something like this: Sorc/Noble Sorc/Noble Sorc/Noble Sorc/Noble Sorc/Noble Sorc/Noble Sorc/Noble Sorc/Noble Tiger/Ranger Tiger/Ranger Tiger/Ranger Tiger/Ranger Tiger/Ranger Tiger/Ranger Sorc/Noble LA/LA ECL 16 character
Ozymandias V. 10-26-05, 12:45 PM	The problem with that method is that it REQUIRES the DM's adjudication.
Tyler Do'Urden 10-27-05, 07:41 PM	I'm glad neither you nor the WotC R&D guys are in my gaming group. Part of the point of D&D is to have fun, and that includes playing the character you want to play. The rules shouldn't try to punish people who do that. Well perhaps I was too harsh, but the fact is it's not supposed to be easy to play nonstandard creatures. I guarantee only applying level adjustment to one side overpowers an already overpowered game type.
Ian Delor 11-01-05, 05:56 PM	In the gestalt campaign I DM, we keep it simple by making the level adjustment just go up one side. Because we were trying to keep it simple, I didn't allow any characters to take more than a LA +1 class, but now that we're farther into the campaign, I have been building more and more NPCs with highers LA's. I simply use the level adjustment (+8 for a Vampire, for instance), and apply it as one side of the character class. Contrary to what I think I've been reading in this thread, that actually makes the character weaker, rather than stronger, because there are no hit dice in the Vampire template, and as a result, no base save bonuses, no skill points, no feats or anything related to class levels, really. That's because that template adds no hit dice, though. Part of the overpowered nature of a gestalt campaign (I've learned as this campaign has progressed), is how uber-powered the characters' saving throws get, because you always take the better bonus at each level. All the people in my campaign agreed that that meant if, at a particular character level, your fortitude went up one in one class, but none in another, your character's base save in fortitude went up. In my campaign, where everyone took a one level template, that offset the save progression just enough to make everyone's saves AWESOME. That was how the whole group understood the stock gestalt rules to work, though. If a template has no hit dice, you are adding opportunities for those saves to go up, because saves, BAB, and skills increase with hit dice. You would effectively be raising the LA of a template if you add HD to a template that normally has none, in my estimation. The LA of the adjusted template would be somewhere between the stated LA and the stated LA plus the new added HD. The issue becomes much more complicated with the were-template, though, because the template adds more hit dice than the level adjustment. Am I to understand that the level adjustment should be added to the hit dice. Is that correct?
Ectoplasmoid 11-02-05, 01:26 AM	The only sensible way to do it is as a normal class. So a Rakshasa Gestalted with Monk would have 14 Monk on one side, and 7 Outsider+7 LA on the other side. LA levels are balanced with normal ones just fine.
Ian Delor 11-02-05, 09:03 AM	I totally agree. That's why a level 8 fighter who is a vampire gains experience as a 16th level character: he's essentially supposed to be as powerful as a 16th level character, as I understand it. In a gestalt campaign, that same character is only 8th level, because the 8 levels of vampire can be gained at the same time as the 8 levels of fighter. The fighter/vampire is still balanced with a gestalt character that took 8 class levels instead of vampire, though, because the fighter got no base save bonus or anything like that from the vampire levels.