Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yue Ryong 06-09-06, 10:11 PM	...without unbalancing the game. I don't like the supreme reliance character's get on magic items to keep up either with creatures of their CR or some of the more broken members of their own party (*cough* CoDzilla). What I propose as an alternative is that characters would gain 'magic points' or 'treasure points' after defeating opponents (based on the wealth per encounter tables in the DMG) and use them to develop abilities tied to the magic items described in the DMG and other sources. Weapon & Armour abilities would apply only when using masterwork armour or weaponry, but everything else would be slotless (at no extra cost, unless the DM thinks that's unbalanced). I've more or less nicked some of the ideas behind this from the Manga 'Hunter x Hunter', but that's OK as it's a great Manga. What do people think? Edit: As a side note: this will help to smooth over a lot of the economic problems of DnD as well (or at least make the job of doing so a fair bit easier), as you don't have huge amounts of wealth locked up in magic items.
Mind Rogue 06-10-06, 01:38 PM	Well, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20051216a) Stephen Shubert decreases wealth by 10-15% but instead grants a stat upgrade every even level and a feat every odd level, which does a fair amount to lessen the value of one's gear. Action points (from Eberron or D20 Modern) can also add inate value to the heroes. Beyond that, I think your idea of adding more specail abilities to the heroes in exchange for some of their wealth is probably the right idea. If you still have a reasonably high magic world, you might just decide to allow everyone to get free spell like abilities, say a cantrip at first level, and then the next level spell every three levels. You could also give them more skill points, which could lessen the need for many utility spells or items, such as scrolls of comprehend languages or knock. You could also offer the option for extra extrodinary abilities. You can also add more and better masterwork items that are not magical.
Bulletproof_Condom 06-10-06, 10:04 PM	Give ability points every even level, give everyone a few more feats (how you do this exactly is up to you), try incorperating the Class Defense Bonus thing, and eliminate alignment-based damage reduction, and it should work just fine. I mean, you shouldn't eliminate magic items entirely because there's just too much room for story in questing for certain items, but doing this will allow high level characters to survive the same sorts of challenges without having to be decked out in magic swag. Also, consider expanding on the concept of masterwork weapons and armor so that you can make items with a true enhancement bonus with a Craft check.
Jerks 06-11-06, 12:39 AM	I pretty much have houseruled just about everthing Bullet_Proof Condom suggested. PCs get a class defense bonus equal to 1/2 their BAB. Action points (as found in Ebberron) Highly expanded masterwork rules. Vitality/wound system. This probably has the biggest increase in PC survivability. Vitality is recovered quickly and frees up the cleric a bit to flex her full Codzilla fury.
Baptor 08-29-06, 11:39 AM	Im curious if you've implemented any of these changes and whether or not they are working for you and your group? Im currently thinking of doing this myself actually. I am also curious as to how your version of Defense bonus works? Does it stack with armor and shield? I digress, that works now that Ive done the math. Here is an idea I came up with. If you still wanted to have magic weapons (as I do) but dont want your players dependant on them, I suggest the following... Have the enhancement bonus inherent (ie, the +3 from the +3 longsword is within rather than without) but the properties remain on the weapon. For example. Tordek has a +3 inherent bonus to attack and damage, and owns a warhammer. After defeating the leader of the Frost Giants, he discovers a frost warhammer. This warhammer is magical, and inflicts +1d6 cold damage. Now, if tordek looses this hammer in a pit of lava, he still has a normal warhammer (with which he still has +3 hit and damage) and all he looses is 1d6 cold, which stinks, but isnt character-ruining. And even if later, at high level, Tordek, now with a +5 inherent bonus, looses his flaming burst holy longsword he's still got that +5, and other bonuses.
LordPendragon 08-29-06, 11:56 AM	Although Bulletproof_Condom and Jerks have a good point, I kinda like the way you handled this. It seems to be the simplest and most direct transition from items to not-items. You're going to have to find a way to rationalize it in your setting, though. If you don't want to mess with the wealth/level guidelines too much, you could just say that there are rituals which you can use to gain the powers, but the reagents and appropriate procedures cost a lot of money; approximately equal to the price of the item emulated, coincidentally :tongue: Alternatively, instead of giving out gold, give out "advancement points" equal to the amount of gold that would have been obtained (again, trying for 1:1 ratio to keep the crossover simple). Those advancement points can then be used to "buy" the abilities. This route is easier to manage and keep from being abused, but it would be difficult to find an appropriate justification for it, unless you want everyone in your setting to be descended from dragons and outsiders. Baptor... I find that a class-based defense system works best like this - no class-based defense. Instead, add your BAB to your AC as a dodge bonus. This is meant to completely replace AC boosting items, and has the advantage of making the tanky high BAB Fighters even tankier when compared to their teammates.
Belfur 08-29-06, 12:02 PM	Did you consider/read Monte Cook's Iron Hero RPG? If no, it makes up d20 core characters who can do without lots of magic items and still beat the same CRs. I do not know how it works out in the end as I do not own it, but I considered to buy it several times.
jagggar 08-29-06, 01:58 PM	...without unbalancing the game. I don't like the supreme reliance character's get on magic items to keep up either with creatures of their CR or some of the more broken members of their own party (*cough* CoDzilla). What I propose as an alternative is that characters would gain 'magic points' or 'treasure points' after defeating opponents (based on the wealth per encounter tables in the DMG) and use them to develop abilities tied to the magic items described in the DMG and other sources. Weapon & Armour abilities would apply only when using masterwork armour or weaponry, but everything else would be slotless (at no extra cost, unless the DM thinks that's unbalanced). I've more or less nicked some of the ideas behind this from the Manga 'Hunter x Hunter', but that's OK as it's a great Manga. What do people think? Edit: As a side note: this will help to smooth over a lot of the economic problems of DnD as well (or at least make the job of doing so a fair bit easier), as you don't have huge amounts of wealth locked up in magic items. Sound a little Incarnium-ish? (please note this is coming from someone who doesn't have Magic of Incarnium) I'd probably come up with some sort of fighter replacement that looked like a combination of the arcane archer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm), soulknife (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm), and d20 Modern's shadow slayer (http://www.dominion-x.net/msrd_html/msrdadvancedclassesII.html). At such and such level, the fighter's sword would be treated as +1, then it'd be +2, then it'd be +2 with a +1 ability and so on. Another thing you might want to take a look at would be Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords. Lets melee types do some pretty cool stuff.
Yue Ryong 08-29-06, 07:50 PM	Sound a little Incarnium-ish? (please note this is coming from someone who doesn't have Magic of Incarnium)Similar, but not very. Incarnum (like all alternate systems) heavily favours the base classes which are introduced in the book with it. A little unfair on people who happen to like using more standard classes. I'd probably come up with some sort of fighter replacement that looked like a combination of the arcane archer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm), soulknife (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm), and d20 Modern's shadow slayer (http://www.dominion-x.net/msrd_html/msrdadvancedclassesII.html). At such and such level, the fighter's sword would be treated as +1, then it'd be +2, then it'd be +2 with a +1 ability and so on.I personally think that's a somewhat roundabout way to get to the same result, as it involves rejigging every single class in individual ways. I also think this is less about balancing and more about flavour, letting Player's devise ways for their characters to develop their powers fuelled by the ambient magic of the Weave. Another thing you might want to take a look at would be Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords. Lets melee types do some pretty cool stuff.I have it. I Love It. It still doesn't do much to cut out the enourmous reliance on Magic Items, though. That's what this is really about.
Baptor 08-29-06, 11:05 PM	Baptor... I find that a class-based defense system works best like this - no class-based defense. Instead, add your BAB to your AC as a dodge bonus. This is meant to completely replace AC boosting items, and has the advantage of making the tanky high BAB Fighters even tankier when compared to their teammates. So you suggest a 20th level fighter would have a +20 dodge bonus to Armor Class? Thats quite alot. That would mean with full plate, +1 Dex, and a shield you would get 10 + 20 + 8 + 1 + 2 = 41 armor class, yowzer A rogue in studded leather with +8 Dex 10 + 15 + 3 + 8 = 36 armor class, also very high it seems
Tenzhi 08-29-06, 11:46 PM	So you suggest a 20th level fighter would have a +20 dodge bonus to Armor Class? Thats quite alot. That would mean with full plate, +1 Dex, and a shield you would get 10 + 20 + 8 + 1 + 2 = 41 armor class, yowzer A rogue in studded leather with +8 Dex 10 + 15 + 3 + 8 = 36 armor class, also very high it seems And they'd be missing the +5 from the magic shield, +5 from the magic armor, and +5 from the amulet of Natural Armor, and the +5 from the ring of protection. Not to mention the possible +5 from the weapon of defending. That's +25 off the top of my head available to either the Rogue or the Fighter over and above mundane protection. More than either of their BABs. ;)
Tenzhi 08-29-06, 11:49 PM	On the other hand, they'd also not have the magical bonuses to hit to bypass all that protection, which kind of makes it relatively a larger bonus when you think about it. But who wants to think - react, then think, that's what I always say! ;)
Baptor 09-10-06, 05:37 AM	And they'd be missing the +5 from the magic shield, +5 from the magic armor, and +5 from the amulet of Natural Armor, and the +5 from the ring of protection. Not to mention the possible +5 from the weapon of defending. That's +25 off the top of my head available to either the Rogue or the Fighter over and above mundane protection. More than either of their BABs. ;) Another thought here, is that a person with a twohanded weapon or dual wielding would have the same bonus as a sword+shield character. Sure the Shield guy gets his +2, but thats kinda pathetic when you consider in magic rules he'd have a +7 over the other guys and they deal way more damage.