HP is to HD as MP is to ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

HP is to HD as MP is to ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xeviat-DM
01-17-05, 12:12 PM Answer: Mana Die.

I saw someone suggest it on another thread yesterday, and since I woke up at 1 am for some disturbing reason, I set to work on it.

The idea is that every class has a Hit Die and a Mana Die, thus allowing multiclass spellcasters to have some sort of edge in the game. This goes even farther in my games and really helps facilitate things, since I offer feats which grant characters the use of spells that they need to spend with their own MP (normally I was granting all characters bonus MP based on their HD and wisdom score off of the XPH bonus PP chart).

First note is that this system would require all spells to be converted into an augmentation system. I am currently doing such for my games and will share the final product with others once it is completed.

Psion/Sorcerer/Wilder would have a d12 Mana Die
Cleric/Druid/Wizard would have a d10 Mana Die
Bard/Psychic Warrior would have a d8 Mana Die
Paladin/Ranger would have a d6 Mana Die
Barbarian/Fighter/Monk/Rogue/Soul Knife would have a d4 Mana Die.

Characters would apply their charisma modifier to each Mana Die, unless they have a spellcasting class, then they would apply their classes primary casting stat's modifier to each mana die. Characters who have two casting classes would apply the best modifier of their two casting stats and mana would be shared between the classes (wow, that would totally rebalance the mystic theurge).

The Cleric/Druid/Wizard retains their normal spell slots, but they do not gain bonus spell slots for a high ability score. Instead, they prepare their spells into their slots as normal (preparing metamagic versions of the spells if they wish to cast a metamagic spell that day), and then they can cast spontaniously from their prepared spells. These classes would have as much as 4 slots per spell level, and compared to the 3 spells per level that the psion knows, that seems fair: preparation casters have more they can prepare, but they have slightly less mp each day. Each caster also has an inherrent drawback for metamagic spells (preparation casters have to prepare them, sorcerers have to take longer to cast them, psychics have to expend focus).

In my games, all MP is determined by Wisdom. Intelligence determines the highest level spell you can know/prepare, while Charisma determines the DC modifier for spells you cast.

This system would also allow us to change the at will spell-like abilities of creatures, making them more playable for monstrous PCs. Instead of the spell-like abilities being at will, the creature simply knows the spell and has to cast it from their available mana points.

Outsider/Fey would have d12
Dragons would have d10
Aberration/Elemental/Undead would have d8
Giant/Magical Beast/Monstrous Humanoid would have d6
Animal/Construct/Humanoid/Ooze/Plant/Vermin would have d4

What do you think?
Xeviat-DM
01-17-05, 12:28 PM Rather than simply re-suggesting the idea, I plotted out a Psion/Wilder/Sorcerer using the old system and the new system (assuming you would give the Sorcerer the same MP as the Psion). I started out with the assumption of a starting 15 in the primary casting stat, as well as gaining an enhancement bonus item at 5th level and getting an improved version at 10 and 15.

Level Score XPH Mana Dice
1 15 3 14
2 15 8 22.5
3 15 14 31
4 16 23 43.5
5 18 35 58
6 18 47 68.5
7 18 60 79
8 19 74 89.5
9 19 90 100
10 21 113 120.5
11 21 133 132
12 22 162 155.5
13 22 186 168
14 22 212 180.5
15 24 247 208
16 25 277 221.5
17 25 309 235
18 25 343 248.5
19 25 377 262
20 26 423 295.5

I didn't assume Tomes or Wishes, though if I go back and do so I would grant those bonuses at 12, 14, 16, 18, and 20. With a +5 insight bonus to their primary stat at 20th level, both classes would look like this:

Level Score XPH Mana Dice
20 31 443 335.5

Yes, this does make these casters weaker, but I think it reigns in their power a little more (and makes them stronger when they need it the most). In the standard XPH system, using my progression above, the psion can cast approximately their level +1 in fully augmented powers per day. In my Mana Dice system, the character can cast 14 at 1st level, 11 at 2nd, 10 at 3-4, 11 at 5-9, 12 at 10-14, 13 at 15-19, and 14 at 20. Assuming 4 battles a day, I'm thinking this sounds more fair with the non-casters.

It is an entirely different mechanic though. It allows for feats which grant bonus MP. It allows for spells and items that deal damage to MP instead of HP. It brings up an interesting spell where one could project a mana shield, or a feat that allows you to cast spells with HP instead of MP. Best of all, it makes multiclass spellcasters not suck, and gives players a reason to play spellcasters in campaigns where the DM grants max HP (because they'd also then grant max MP).

What say you?
starfire311
01-17-05, 12:32 PM Looks good to me... but for me the challenge isnt coming up with the MP it is coming up with a good system to use the MP... I am very tempted to just convert some spells to the psionics system and come up with new spell lists for arcane and divine using the psionic powers and some select spells to convert.
Xeviat-DM
01-17-05, 12:37 PM Looks good to me... but for me the challenge isnt coming up with the MP it is coming up with a good system to use the MP... I am very tempted to just convert some spells to the psionics system and come up with new spell lists for arcane and divine using the psionic powers and some select spells to convert.

Yeah, I'm converting all spells to an augmentation mechanic. I'm currently somewhere in the Ds. When I finish it, I'll post it up (probably on a website that I'll put up since it will be a large file).
starfire311
01-17-05, 02:20 PM Yeah, I'm converting all spells to an augmentation mechanic. I'm currently somewhere in the Ds. When I finish it, I'll post it up (probably on a website that I'll put up since it will be a large file).

I would be very interested in seeing that.
evangelion1010
01-17-05, 07:35 PM I don't see much of a use for seperation between wizard and sorcerer with this system... the wizard is even closer to a sorcerer than normal.

I also don't see why you don't allow a high stat modifer to allow for more spell slots.

I do like the idea of spell points though - i think its better than the level system.

At will SLA should remain as they are. Unless you reduce the LA accordingly, something like improved invisiblity at will is much better than 5 spell points (or whatever I.I. would be) especially to a non-caster class. I'd keep SLA at will as they were, and allow SLAs to be permanent options as slots to use spell points. A wizard could use all his spell points on powering SLA's, and regardless of how which spells he prepared, he'd always have his SLA's on the list.

I was also not aware there was a balance issue with the theurge... most people seem to think that it can be powerful in some builds, but not to the point of excess, and in most cases its an average or sub-par PrC.

In the end, if you can pull it off so that it works well, i'll be both impressed and happy... and you'll have my thanks.
Xeviat-DM
01-17-05, 09:41 PM Read the link in my signature "My World: The Game Rules" and you can see what my sorcerer is. They are definately not wizards.

Allowing intelligence or wisdom to grant bonus spell prepared slots would give them double benefit for their high score, while sorcerers and psions don't get bonus spells known for their high score.

I'm not removing SLAs. Creatures will still retain their SLAs, but they have to pay for them with their mana rather than being at will or 3/day or what ever. Due to other changes in my setting, I have to rewrite every monster in my world, so recalculating LAs is easy enough (especially since I only allow players to play my humanoids and certain templated humanoids).

I feel the Theurge is crazy outside of battle.

I'll keep everyone posted on how it goes.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 01-17-05, 12:12 PM	Answer: Mana Die. I saw someone suggest it on another thread yesterday, and since I woke up at 1 am for some disturbing reason, I set to work on it. The idea is that every class has a Hit Die and a Mana Die, thus allowing multiclass spellcasters to have some sort of edge in the game. This goes even farther in my games and really helps facilitate things, since I offer feats which grant characters the use of spells that they need to spend with their own MP (normally I was granting all characters bonus MP based on their HD and wisdom score off of the XPH bonus PP chart). First note is that this system would require all spells to be converted into an augmentation system. I am currently doing such for my games and will share the final product with others once it is completed. Psion/Sorcerer/Wilder would have a d12 Mana Die Cleric/Druid/Wizard would have a d10 Mana Die Bard/Psychic Warrior would have a d8 Mana Die Paladin/Ranger would have a d6 Mana Die Barbarian/Fighter/Monk/Rogue/Soul Knife would have a d4 Mana Die. Characters would apply their charisma modifier to each Mana Die, unless they have a spellcasting class, then they would apply their classes primary casting stat's modifier to each mana die. Characters who have two casting classes would apply the best modifier of their two casting stats and mana would be shared between the classes (wow, that would totally rebalance the mystic theurge). The Cleric/Druid/Wizard retains their normal spell slots, but they do not gain bonus spell slots for a high ability score. Instead, they prepare their spells into their slots as normal (preparing metamagic versions of the spells if they wish to cast a metamagic spell that day), and then they can cast spontaniously from their prepared spells. These classes would have as much as 4 slots per spell level, and compared to the 3 spells per level that the psion knows, that seems fair: preparation casters have more they can prepare, but they have slightly less mp each day. Each caster also has an inherrent drawback for metamagic spells (preparation casters have to prepare them, sorcerers have to take longer to cast them, psychics have to expend focus). In my games, all MP is determined by Wisdom. Intelligence determines the highest level spell you can know/prepare, while Charisma determines the DC modifier for spells you cast. This system would also allow us to change the at will spell-like abilities of creatures, making them more playable for monstrous PCs. Instead of the spell-like abilities being at will, the creature simply knows the spell and has to cast it from their available mana points. Outsider/Fey would have d12 Dragons would have d10 Aberration/Elemental/Undead would have d8 Giant/Magical Beast/Monstrous Humanoid would have d6 Animal/Construct/Humanoid/Ooze/Plant/Vermin would have d4 What do you think?
Xeviat-DM 01-17-05, 12:28 PM	Rather than simply re-suggesting the idea, I plotted out a Psion/Wilder/Sorcerer using the old system and the new system (assuming you would give the Sorcerer the same MP as the Psion). I started out with the assumption of a starting 15 in the primary casting stat, as well as gaining an enhancement bonus item at 5th level and getting an improved version at 10 and 15. Level Score XPH Mana Dice 1 15 3 14 2 15 8 22.5 3 15 14 31 4 16 23 43.5 5 18 35 58 6 18 47 68.5 7 18 60 79 8 19 74 89.5 9 19 90 100 10 21 113 120.5 11 21 133 132 12 22 162 155.5 13 22 186 168 14 22 212 180.5 15 24 247 208 16 25 277 221.5 17 25 309 235 18 25 343 248.5 19 25 377 262 20 26 423 295.5 I didn't assume Tomes or Wishes, though if I go back and do so I would grant those bonuses at 12, 14, 16, 18, and 20. With a +5 insight bonus to their primary stat at 20th level, both classes would look like this: Level Score XPH Mana Dice 20 31 443 335.5 Yes, this does make these casters weaker, but I think it reigns in their power a little more (and makes them stronger when they need it the most). In the standard XPH system, using my progression above, the psion can cast approximately their level +1 in fully augmented powers per day. In my Mana Dice system, the character can cast 14 at 1st level, 11 at 2nd, 10 at 3-4, 11 at 5-9, 12 at 10-14, 13 at 15-19, and 14 at 20. Assuming 4 battles a day, I'm thinking this sounds more fair with the non-casters. It is an entirely different mechanic though. It allows for feats which grant bonus MP. It allows for spells and items that deal damage to MP instead of HP. It brings up an interesting spell where one could project a mana shield, or a feat that allows you to cast spells with HP instead of MP. Best of all, it makes multiclass spellcasters not suck, and gives players a reason to play spellcasters in campaigns where the DM grants max HP (because they'd also then grant max MP). What say you?
starfire311 01-17-05, 12:32 PM	Looks good to me... but for me the challenge isnt coming up with the MP it is coming up with a good system to use the MP... I am very tempted to just convert some spells to the psionics system and come up with new spell lists for arcane and divine using the psionic powers and some select spells to convert.
Xeviat-DM 01-17-05, 12:37 PM	Looks good to me... but for me the challenge isnt coming up with the MP it is coming up with a good system to use the MP... I am very tempted to just convert some spells to the psionics system and come up with new spell lists for arcane and divine using the psionic powers and some select spells to convert. Yeah, I'm converting all spells to an augmentation mechanic. I'm currently somewhere in the Ds. When I finish it, I'll post it up (probably on a website that I'll put up since it will be a large file).
starfire311 01-17-05, 02:20 PM	Yeah, I'm converting all spells to an augmentation mechanic. I'm currently somewhere in the Ds. When I finish it, I'll post it up (probably on a website that I'll put up since it will be a large file). I would be very interested in seeing that.
evangelion1010 01-17-05, 07:35 PM	I don't see much of a use for seperation between wizard and sorcerer with this system... the wizard is even closer to a sorcerer than normal. I also don't see why you don't allow a high stat modifer to allow for more spell slots. I do like the idea of spell points though - i think its better than the level system. At will SLA should remain as they are. Unless you reduce the LA accordingly, something like improved invisiblity at will is much better than 5 spell points (or whatever I.I. would be) especially to a non-caster class. I'd keep SLA at will as they were, and allow SLAs to be permanent options as slots to use spell points. A wizard could use all his spell points on powering SLA's, and regardless of how which spells he prepared, he'd always have his SLA's on the list. I was also not aware there was a balance issue with the theurge... most people seem to think that it can be powerful in some builds, but not to the point of excess, and in most cases its an average or sub-par PrC. In the end, if you can pull it off so that it works well, i'll be both impressed and happy... and you'll have my thanks.
Xeviat-DM 01-17-05, 09:41 PM	Read the link in my signature "My World: The Game Rules" and you can see what my sorcerer is. They are definately not wizards. Allowing intelligence or wisdom to grant bonus spell prepared slots would give them double benefit for their high score, while sorcerers and psions don't get bonus spells known for their high score. I'm not removing SLAs. Creatures will still retain their SLAs, but they have to pay for them with their mana rather than being at will or 3/day or what ever. Due to other changes in my setting, I have to rewrite every monster in my world, so recalculating LAs is easy enough (especially since I only allow players to play my humanoids and certain templated humanoids). I feel the Theurge is crazy outside of battle. I'll keep everyone posted on how it goes.