[HR] Dying without negative hit points *or* a Fortitude save [Archive] - Wizards Community

[HR] Dying without negative hit points *or* a Fortitude save [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jack Daniel
10-05-04, 04:48 PM I don't like negative hit points. They do very much at low levels, and nothing at all at high levels. They're supposed to be a buffer between "hovering at death's door" and actually being dead, and they worked when they were first introduced back in AD&D, when single attacks dealt far less damage.

The Fortitude save system from Unearthed Arcana (and pre-revision Star Wars d20) does away with this disadvantage, but brings in two of its own. First off, it's very complex, much harder to work with than negative HPs. Second, it's Constitution and class based, heavily biased in favor of fighters, where negative hit points were a simple countdown to -10 and a 10% chance of stabilizing.

In order to combine the best of both systems, I need a simple countdown that relies on the random result of a percentile check, and not on a saving throw or a check modified by an ability score. This is what I came up with.

1. There are no negative hit points. Monsters and mook NPCs are still dead at 0 hp, but player characters and important NPCs who fall to 0 hp must roll d% to see how stubbornly they can cling to life.
2. The initial roll is a simple do-or-die. A roll of 1-10% indicates death, 11-90% means dying and unconsciousness, and 91-100% means stability and a return to (disabled) consciousness.
3. A dying (11-90%) result means that next round, you have to roll again, but each round, the odds shift in favor of dying by 1%. This means that on the second round, your chances are dead (1-11%), unconscious (12-91%), or stable (92-100%).
4. By the tenth round, your chance of stabilizing is nil, and you have a 20% of ending up dead vs. an 80% chance of staying alive but unconscious. If you pass this check, you're comatose and can only stabilize with the aid of a cleric or surgeon; but you only need to check against dying every hour, rather than every round (the chance of dying still goes up by 1% with each roll).
5. If you manage to get your hit points all the way up to a whopping 1, you're healed, no problems.
6. If you take damage while dying, that's bad. You add that damage to your percentile chance of dying, and subtract it from your chance of stabilizing; and you have to roll an immediate check. For example, if you had been bleeding out for 3 rounds (chances are death 1-13%/unconsciousness 14-93%/stable 94-100%) and somebody whacks you with a sword for 10 damage, you're now over the coma threshold, with a 23% chance of dying immediately from the attack. (Of course, if it was a coup de gracey, you also have that save or die thing to deal with, but that's entirely beside the point.)

Part of this system is intended to reflect how main characters (hero and villain alike) do not go gently into that good night, which fits my campaign quite well. It's also a very dramatically tense way to hover at 0 hp (especially since I use action points in my game, and so the option of spending one to stabilize automatically is almost always dangling right in front of the players).

Comments? Better ideas?
Neoatomic
10-05-04, 05:14 PM All in all this is a good method to keep the real baddies alive and teh PCs as well.
In my Campaign we still use negative HP but the death is extended to the negative of thier CON score. So if you dont want a BBEG to die you can load him up with items to increase his CON. And it also helps PCs live and puts more emphasis on a good CON score.

The D% to me seems to be too risky, I for one hate having to wait while the party makes new characters. I would change you system to incorporate that power of the hit that killed them. It would suck to be hit by a goblin with a small rock to be put you a -10 and then fail your d%. It would make more sense to use a d% when a PC or monster has been really hit by a giant with a huge tree trunk.
Dungeon Master
10-05-04, 06:26 PM How about negative con plus your level? So a 15th level fighter with a 16 con won't die until he reaches -31 hp.
aikboy
10-08-04, 01:10 PM I have two solutions to this first Dungeon Master's solution but instead of lvl make it BaB

Another solution could be to force the dying man to make a fort save: dc = dmg below zero. Every round you take 1 hp damage untill the tenth when you start making a save every one hour, but with you no longer losing hp. After a day you start healing at your normal rate
celebrist
11-04-04, 01:08 PM [QUOTE=Neoatomic]All in all this is a good method to keep the real baddies alive and teh PCs as well.
In my Campaign we still use negative HP but the death is extended to the negative of thier CON score. So if you dont want a BBEG to die you can load him up with items to increase his CON. And it also helps PCs live and puts more emphasis on a good CON score.

i use this same system of negative hp up to your con, really tough characters should be more resilient. another system i have used for years to increase the effectiveness of critical hits is a location chart and a % of your max hp that each area of your body can handle. if the damage equals or exceeds the % you make a con check to see if it is disabled. adds a lot more spice to criticals but that was back when only natural 20 was critical in my world. i haven't put it into 3/3.5 yet.
Aegis Sol
11-18-04, 01:20 PM The way we do negative hp in my campaign (and a friend's) is as follows. (I'm not claiming credit for this system- I probably snagged it from some book and tweaked it to suit my purposes- but I can't remember from where).

Positive hp: Character is normal

0 hp to negative level hp: Character is disabled and must make a save each round after performing their action (no save is necessary if they do nothing). The save is Fort DC 10 + (negative hp) or lose 1 hp. The need for a fortitude save is removed if they receive healing or a stabilization check- at least until they are wounded again.

negative hp+1 to negative Constitution+ level hp: Character is unconscious and bleeding. Each round they must make Constitution check DC 19 (10% for a Con of 10) or bleed for 1 hp. They stabilize as normal (if they recieve healing, if they make the check, etc).

negative Constitution + level + 1hp: dead

It works well for my campaigns- I ask for fairly detailed character backgrounds and work them into the storyline, thus my players and I both prefer that character death be a rare occurence; but when it happens, it is significant (Raise Dead can be fairly difficult to come by unless circumstances are fortuitous)! Monsters and minor NPCs die when they reach 0 hp, unless it absolutely matters (such as when the PCs try to subdue someone using lethal damage). :rolleyes:
Trombone4Hire
11-28-04, 04:44 PM While I prefer the vitality point system, it has its problems, so I don't rule out the hit point system entirely. My idea to eliminate negative HP is different between major and minor characters. Minor characters are dead at 0 hit points, while major characters stay at 0 but a countdown is started. When a character hits 0, the character has five turns to be stabilized or he or she will die. Any healing spell will return the character back to positive hit points and halt the countdown. I haven't playtested this at all, but it seems to work in my mind. Any thoughts?
ClothedUpon
11-28-04, 08:23 PM How about negative con plus your level? So a 15th level fighter with a 16 con won't die until he reaches -31 hp.

I kind of like this idea, but might use CON plus FORT bonus, instead.

Any thoughts?
Thelon Fairblade
11-29-04, 10:24 AM IMC, we use this rule:
Dead at -CON.
Stablize chance = CON % (i.e. 16 CON means 16% chance)
Anything that insta-kills instead drops you to 0 - d20.
Any hit that takes you below 0 does an additional d4 damage (so your friends don't know how close to death you are... functionally, the players always assume the roll was a "4").

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jack Daniel 10-05-04, 04:48 PM	I don't like negative hit points. They do very much at low levels, and nothing at all at high levels. They're supposed to be a buffer between "hovering at death's door" and actually being dead, and they worked when they were first introduced back in AD&D, when single attacks dealt far less damage. The Fortitude save system from Unearthed Arcana (and pre-revision Star Wars d20) does away with this disadvantage, but brings in two of its own. First off, it's very complex, much harder to work with than negative HPs. Second, it's Constitution and class based, heavily biased in favor of fighters, where negative hit points were a simple countdown to -10 and a 10% chance of stabilizing. In order to combine the best of both systems, I need a simple countdown that relies on the random result of a percentile check, and not on a saving throw or a check modified by an ability score. This is what I came up with. 1. There are no negative hit points. Monsters and mook NPCs are still dead at 0 hp, but player characters and important NPCs who fall to 0 hp must roll d% to see how stubbornly they can cling to life. 2. The initial roll is a simple do-or-die. A roll of 1-10% indicates death, 11-90% means dying and unconsciousness, and 91-100% means stability and a return to (disabled) consciousness. 3. A dying (11-90%) result means that next round, you have to roll again, but each round, the odds shift in favor of dying by 1%. This means that on the second round, your chances are dead (1-11%), unconscious (12-91%), or stable (92-100%). 4. By the tenth round, your chance of stabilizing is nil, and you have a 20% of ending up dead vs. an 80% chance of staying alive but unconscious. If you pass this check, you're comatose and can only stabilize with the aid of a cleric or surgeon; but you only need to check against dying every hour, rather than every round (the chance of dying still goes up by 1% with each roll). 5. If you manage to get your hit points all the way up to a whopping 1, you're healed, no problems. 6. If you take damage while dying, that's bad. You add that damage to your percentile chance of dying, and subtract it from your chance of stabilizing; and you have to roll an immediate check. For example, if you had been bleeding out for 3 rounds (chances are death 1-13%/unconsciousness 14-93%/stable 94-100%) and somebody whacks you with a sword for 10 damage, you're now over the coma threshold, with a 23% chance of dying immediately from the attack. (Of course, if it was a coup de gracey, you also have that save or die thing to deal with, but that's entirely beside the point.) Part of this system is intended to reflect how main characters (hero and villain alike) do not go gently into that good night, which fits my campaign quite well. It's also a very dramatically tense way to hover at 0 hp (especially since I use action points in my game, and so the option of spending one to stabilize automatically is almost always dangling right in front of the players). Comments? Better ideas?
Neoatomic 10-05-04, 05:14 PM	All in all this is a good method to keep the real baddies alive and teh PCs as well. In my Campaign we still use negative HP but the death is extended to the negative of thier CON score. So if you dont want a BBEG to die you can load him up with items to increase his CON. And it also helps PCs live and puts more emphasis on a good CON score. The D% to me seems to be too risky, I for one hate having to wait while the party makes new characters. I would change you system to incorporate that power of the hit that killed them. It would suck to be hit by a goblin with a small rock to be put you a -10 and then fail your d%. It would make more sense to use a d% when a PC or monster has been really hit by a giant with a huge tree trunk.
Dungeon Master 10-05-04, 06:26 PM	How about negative con plus your level? So a 15th level fighter with a 16 con won't die until he reaches -31 hp.
aikboy 10-08-04, 01:10 PM	I have two solutions to this first Dungeon Master's solution but instead of lvl make it BaB Another solution could be to force the dying man to make a fort save: dc = dmg below zero. Every round you take 1 hp damage untill the tenth when you start making a save every one hour, but with you no longer losing hp. After a day you start healing at your normal rate
celebrist 11-04-04, 01:08 PM	[QUOTE=Neoatomic]All in all this is a good method to keep the real baddies alive and teh PCs as well. In my Campaign we still use negative HP but the death is extended to the negative of thier CON score. So if you dont want a BBEG to die you can load him up with items to increase his CON. And it also helps PCs live and puts more emphasis on a good CON score. i use this same system of negative hp up to your con, really tough characters should be more resilient. another system i have used for years to increase the effectiveness of critical hits is a location chart and a % of your max hp that each area of your body can handle. if the damage equals or exceeds the % you make a con check to see if it is disabled. adds a lot more spice to criticals but that was back when only natural 20 was critical in my world. i haven't put it into 3/3.5 yet.
Aegis Sol 11-18-04, 01:20 PM	The way we do negative hp in my campaign (and a friend's) is as follows. (I'm not claiming credit for this system- I probably snagged it from some book and tweaked it to suit my purposes- but I can't remember from where). Positive hp: Character is normal 0 hp to negative level hp: Character is disabled and must make a save each round after performing their action (no save is necessary if they do nothing). The save is Fort DC 10 + (negative hp) or lose 1 hp. The need for a fortitude save is removed if they receive healing or a stabilization check- at least until they are wounded again. negative hp+1 to negative Constitution+ level hp: Character is unconscious and bleeding. Each round they must make Constitution check DC 19 (10% for a Con of 10) or bleed for 1 hp. They stabilize as normal (if they recieve healing, if they make the check, etc). negative Constitution + level + 1hp: dead It works well for my campaigns- I ask for fairly detailed character backgrounds and work them into the storyline, thus my players and I both prefer that character death be a rare occurence; but when it happens, it is significant (Raise Dead can be fairly difficult to come by unless circumstances are fortuitous)! Monsters and minor NPCs die when they reach 0 hp, unless it absolutely matters (such as when the PCs try to subdue someone using lethal damage). :rolleyes:
Trombone4Hire 11-28-04, 04:44 PM	While I prefer the vitality point system, it has its problems, so I don't rule out the hit point system entirely. My idea to eliminate negative HP is different between major and minor characters. Minor characters are dead at 0 hit points, while major characters stay at 0 but a countdown is started. When a character hits 0, the character has five turns to be stabilized or he or she will die. Any healing spell will return the character back to positive hit points and halt the countdown. I haven't playtested this at all, but it seems to work in my mind. Any thoughts?
ClothedUpon 11-28-04, 08:23 PM	How about negative con plus your level? So a 15th level fighter with a 16 con won't die until he reaches -31 hp. I kind of like this idea, but might use CON plus FORT bonus, instead. Any thoughts?
Thelon Fairblade 11-29-04, 10:24 AM	IMC, we use this rule: Dead at -CON. Stablize chance = CON % (i.e. 16 CON means 16% chance) Anything that insta-kills instead drops you to 0 - d20. Any hit that takes you below 0 does an additional d4 damage (so your friends don't know how close to death you are... functionally, the players always assume the roll was a "4").