Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Soap 05-29-04, 04:25 PM	Well first I'll get on with my question about the Human Paragon: According to the class skills of a human paragon in Unearthed Arcana, I can pick any 10 class skills that I want to for the class skill list. According to the 3.5 Players handbook when multiclassing, if a skill is a class skill for any multiclass character's classes, then character level determines a skills maximum rank Now my question is, what is the point of Adaptive Learning? The ability is described as follows: At 1st level, a human paragon can designate any one of his human paragon class skills as an adaptive skill. This skill is treated as a class skill in all respects for all classes that the character has levels in, both current and future. What exactly does it matter if the one adaptive skill is considered a class skill outside of the human paragon class when character level determines a skills maximum rank instead of class levels? --- Well, the plan for my character in an upcoming Ravenloft campaign is a Battle Sorcerer and probably with 3 levels of Human Paragon, though I haven't completely decided on whether to use human. My rolls are as follows: 16, 15, 15, 13, 12, 10 The way I think I will be playing it is the following switching between the two as necessary: 1) Play as a normal Sorc with the benefit of greater hit points, much greater AC with Light Armor + Mage Armor + Combat Expertise + Dex Bonus, at the expense of a few less spells known. Before I go any further, you can combine Armor with Mage Armor right? I don't see anything in the spells descriptor which states otherwise. 2) A combat oriented character that will burn spell slots with Arcane Strike feat (from Complete Warrior) to do more damage, and able to dart in and out of combat well with Expiditious Retreat. I was also thinking of taking wild talent for the benefit of psionic feats that would further augment my combat capabilities. Like maybe go one of the following routes: a) Arcane Strike + Greater Psionic Weapon + Power Attack (much more damage) b) Arcane Strike + Deep Impact + Power Attack (much better chance to hit) Do you think A or B would be better? I liked the idea of adding the 3 levels of human paragon it will only halt spell progression for one level and one less bab but in exchange I get 10 class skills that don't relate Sorcs (move silently, hide, etc.), 3 levels of getting skills at 4 + Int as opposed to 2 + Int, one bonus feat, one extra point of Will Save and +2 to an ability score of my choice. Pretty good trade off in my opinion. So this is basically what the build I was thinking of going: lvl 1 - 2 Battle Sorc/3 - 5 Human Paragon/6 - 20 Battle Sorc feats: 01 - Wild Talent 01 - Psionic Weapon 03 - Power Attack or Weapon Finess 04 - Combat Expertise 06 - Psionic Meditation 09 - Arcane Strike 12 - Greater Psionic Weapon or Deep Impact 15 - Power Attack or Extra Spell (depending on weather I got PA earlier) 18 - Extra Spell (any feats that you think would be better than Extra Spell?) Str - 15 Dex - 16 Con - 10 Int - 13 Wis - 12 (+1 at lvl 4, for Psionic Meditation pre-req.) Chr - 15 (+1 at lvl 8, 12, 16, 20... won't get 9th level spells until 20 but can burn 9th level spell slots for +9 to hit and +9d4 damage until 20th level) Not sure if I should add my + 2 ability scrore from my paragon to dex or str. With Str I'll get +1 to hit/damage, greater carry capacity, and then I won't bother with Weapon Finess which means I can get Power Attack earlier. With dex, I'll get an extra +1 to AC (which would be handy since I don't have a HP adj), +2 to hit if I take Weapon Finess (But will cause getting Power Attack MUCH later in the game), extra bonus 1 on Ref save. What do you think would be better? If you have any suggestions on what I could do to improve my character (perhaps a prestige that I don't know about or even a different race if it's justifiable), I would be very appreciative. Please keep in mind that I don't have access to dragon magazine, or any other campaign setting than Ravenloft. I'm sure a pure warrior or a pure magic user may be better than what I've thought up but I'm just going for flavor of someone that can occasionally dish out good physical damage, good skill selection (due to paragon), and access to 9th level spells, but can still take a few hits. hopefully this wasn't too long and boring for you guys :D
DiebDazar 05-30-04, 01:29 AM	the adaptive learning skill doesn't cost you double ranks to improve
MoogleEmpMog 05-30-04, 02:48 AM	Battle Sorc is a pretty solid class (arguably what the sorcerer should've been to begin with) so I wouldn't dump out of it for Human Paragon. Purely for flavor reasons, mixing psionics and spontaneous arcane casting is something I would only do in Dark Sun or with a gem (neutral) dragon bloodline. :) My suggestion would be to go Battle Sorc until you get Arcane Strike, then pick up 1-4 levels of a Paladin (if your alignment and temperment qualify you for it) or 1 level of Fighter, adding a level of Spellsword, and progressing as an Eldritch Knight from there. Of course, my favorite version of this type of character is an Aurak Draconian (DLCS) Dragonslayer (Draconomicon)/Spellsword (CW) /Eldritch Knight (DMG), but that's just me. :D
Giarc 05-31-04, 03:56 AM	Before I go any further, you can combine Armor with Mage Armor right? I don't see anything in the spells descriptor which states otherwise. The spell's description says: An invisible but tangible field of force surrounds the subject of a mage armor spell, providing a +4 armor bonus to AC. In 3.5, armor bonuses do not stack, so no, physical armor and the spell Mage Armor do not stack.
trotzflocke 05-31-04, 04:56 PM	Originally posted by MoogleEmpMog My suggestion would be to go Battle Sorc until you get Arcane Strike, then pick up 1-4 levels of a Paladin (if your alignment and temperment qualify you for it) or 1 level of Fighter, adding a level of Spellsword, and progressing as an Eldritch Knight from there. I wouldn't do anything that makes you lose a caster level. So, no human paragon or eldritch knight. I think that the battle sorcerer is better than the eldritch knight, anyway. At least it makes not too much sense to combine them. Go for a normal sorcerer/paladin and then for the eldritch knight or stay with the battle sorcerer. The battle sorcerer is like a little prestige class himself. :) Play the battle sorcerer like the eldritch knight is described: Hurl spells at the fighter types with bad reflex or will saves, and use your weapon against the spellcasters. Run from the rogues. ;) I would not pick too many boosting or damage dealing spells. Rather more of the kind that help against the enemy brutes (like hold person, suggestion and the like) or give you more tactical options (like benign trasnposition or dimension door). When you face an enemy spellcaster, go to close range an burn the spell slots with arcane strike. The Miniatures Handbook has many great feats and spells for this kind of character, like slide, snake's swiftness or baleful transposition or feats like daunting presence (which is quite good for charisma based classes).
Dunelord 05-31-04, 08:44 PM	Well if you are trying to powergame go for True Neutral since you can use holy or unholy weapons and not take extra damage from them. As was said you can't use Mage Armor with normal armor, and that Adaptive learning lets you not have to spend double skill ranks on a skill. A mutliclass character still has to spend double points on a skill if it is not a class skill for the level he is taking. Keep an eye out for Mythiral Breastplate, the best light armor. I would go for Arcane Strike and Spring Attack and forget the Psyic stuff. Doesn't really seem to do that much for you and it leaves you open to a ton of stuff that damages Pysic creatures. ] I have played a character a lot like this once. If you do it you might want to go for Human Paragon first, that way you get to put more ranks in the other skills. You can go back into Battle S. at second and come back to Human Paragon. Also don't forget to put your state gain in Chraisma from Human Paragon, and you have a bonus feat from it. Say improved inative? You could take your 12 level feat as craft magic item, take a bunch of buff spells and for the price of 3840 XP make a + 4 bonus to all your abities. This would use up 6 spaces though. It would cost you a bunch of spell caster levels but you could go for Spellsword and cast through your weapon with Arcane Strike. This lets you do a TON of damage a few times a day.
Soap 06-01-04, 07:30 PM	thanks for all of your suggestions my DM isn't letting me use Paragons anyways.
trapspringer 06-01-04, 09:02 PM	Isn't mage armor a force effect? A defelection bonus?
xorn king 06-01-04, 11:24 PM	No, Mage Armor grants an Armor bonus to AC. Armor you wear gives an Armor bonus to Ac. Now, bonus of the same type to not stack, the greater overlaps the lesser(s). You do the math But yes, Mage Armor gives its-self through a force effect, so it stays on your AC vs. incorporial creatures. Remember their is no Force bonus to AC
Marcus Majarra 06-01-04, 11:35 PM	Paragon or no paragon, I would suggest replacing two levels of Battle Sorceror for two levels of Psychic Warrior, if only to get some easy psionic combat feats (Deep Impact, Psionic Weapon, etc.), and to spare the need to waste regular feats on them as well as Wild Talent. You'll get one less level-8 and three less level-9 spells, but since your character's combat-oriented as opposed to magic-oriented, it's no big loss. I would suggest taking the Psychic Warrior levels as soon as you're done obtaining Arcane Strike. By that time, you'll be able to kick ass adequately. Or better yet, since you can do without two caster levels and still keep a few level-9 spells, I'd suggest you take the following progression: Levels 1-6: Battle Sorceror Level 7: Psychic Warrior Levels 8-17: Eldritch Knight Levels 18-20: Battle Sorceror You only lose two Battle Sorceror caster levels, you get two bonus feats, you're automatically psionic after level 7, and you wind up with an overall BAB of +16 (+17 if you're playing with the fractional variants). The only downside is that you need at least 14 Wis in order to have 1 power point. If you want to do without this, you'll need to forego one more caster level (it's not like there's a big difference in a few lost Arcane Strikes), and take another Psychic Warrior level. The upside, however, is nice, as you get another point of BAB, an extra feat, and one less necessary ability score (you wouldn't even need to have a worthwhile Wisdom score, since you won't be manifesting any powers anyway).
Soap 06-02-04, 03:22 AM	Thanks for the help. It's unfortunate however that my DM doesn't like Psionics. I've recently fonud out that I'm not allowed to used Psionic Feats unless I'm a character class from the XPH. This would be ok for the Psychic Warrior suggestion except that the only XPH class we're allowed to use is the Soul Knife. I don't think we're allowed to take Paragon levels either, even though we're using a few other things from UA. So, I guess I'm going straight Battle Sorc until about level 10 or so and become an Eldritch Knight (if I'm allowed to be it) and do 10 levels in that... but is the extra bab and one feat worth dropping to a d6 hit dice and one level of spell progression? I'm not exactly sure what race I'm going to be but I guess I'll pick my feats something like this: 01 - Power Attack 01 - Combat Expertise or Improved Initiative 03 - Extra Spell (basically makes up for your one less spell/ spell level and more) 06 - Arcane Strike 09 - 11 - (this is if I go Eldritch Knight after my 10th lvl of Battle Sorc) 12 - 15 - 18 - I don't know what I should go for since I can no longer take psionic Feats. Any suggestions?
Marcus Majarra 06-02-04, 04:13 AM	Well, since you won't be using your character for casting spells (except for the good ol' reliable low-level spells, like Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Enlarge Person, True Strike, Scorching Ray, and the such), you can forego a few level-9 spells, and try to just go and maximize your offensive output in direct combat. My advice is to concentrate on missile and ray spells, and on a single type of melee weapon. Unfortunately, you're going to have to take a fighter/ranger/paladin/barbarian level if you want to take levels in Eldritch Knight (it requires for you to be proficient with all martial weapons), which isn't a bad idea. The ranger and paladin aren't worth it, IMHO. Whether you choose the fighter or the barbarian depends on whether you prefer having an extra feat, or the ability to rage 1/day and 10 feet of extra speed. Both choices are good, but I would take the barbarian level unless you're short on one feat. Taking the fighter level is an especially good idea if you feel like taking up the bastard sword (since you'll also want the exotic weapon proficiency associated with it). It's a much better idea to start out with the fighter/barbarian level at level 1, since it's easier along the road to start out as a combattant, and because you get to use the weapon of choice from the start with a positive BAB. Among the suggested feats for this character are: PHB Blind-Fight Cleave (Great Cleave) Dodge Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) Weapon Focus Improved Critical (unless you happen upon a keen weapon) Improved Initiative Mobility Power Attack Quick Draw Spring Attack Weapon Focus (chosen weapon) Weapon Focus (rays) Complete Warrior Arcane Strike (a definite must) Kiai Shout (Greater Kiai Shout) Improved Toughness Power Critical Elusive Target
Soap 06-02-04, 01:30 PM	I'm not sure if I'm going to use a Battle Sorcerer or not after all. I can never decide when it comes to making a character. :angel: Other things I was thinking of was like a Hexblade with 2 - 3 levels in Rogue starting out for a lot of skill points, Evasion and Sneak attack. Evasion with eventual Mettle would be good for taking out spellcasters. Sort of off-topic about classes: I was just wondering... on the board I've seen people with a lot of classes or PrC for their character but wouldn't that normally suffer from XP loss? Like when you suggested: Levels 1-6: Battle Sorceror Level 7: Psychic Warrior Levels 8-17: Eldritch Knight Levels 18-20: Battle Sorceror Wouldn't I start losing XP as soon as the Eldtritch Knight was more than a level apart from the Psychic Warrior? Anyways, thanks again everyone :)
Giarc 06-02-04, 07:29 PM	The Eldritch Knight levels wouldn't penalize you since that is a prestige class. Since you are human, you wouldn't be affected by the multiclassing penalty until you got your third level of Battle Sorcerer.
Marcus Majarra 06-03-04, 12:43 AM	Actually, since he's human, he's not at all penalized by multiclassing since his favored class is always his highest-level class (non-PrC).
Soap 06-03-04, 01:30 AM	blah, I'm such a noob. I didn't know PrC don't count towards your xp penalty for multiclassing. hmmmm, Battle Sorc or Rogue/Hexblade well, thanks again for all of the help.
Giarc 06-03-04, 03:27 AM	Originally posted by Marcus Majarra Actually, since he's human, he's not at all penalized by multiclassing since his favored class is always his highest-level class (non-PrC). Doh! I wasn't paying enough attention! I thought he had 3 classes and a PrC! You, good sir, are correct.
DragonsArt 06-03-04, 02:02 PM	Adaptive learning lets use treat a skill as a class skill no matter what class you take for skill point costs, meaning you would only pay 1 skill point instead of 2 for a rank. It would be nice to take a level of paragon... and choose USE MAGIC DEVICE. You could treat it as class skill for the rest of your career and use any magic item. Nice. Don't forget... you add your paragon levels to spellcaster levels to determine caster level.