Human Paragon?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Human Paragon?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
war_thog
08-13-07, 07:59 PM Alright I just wrote up a lvl 5 char. Human paragon 3, Sorc 2.

Now heres my question. Does anyone else thing that the paragons might be a touch good? The others in my gaming group have allowed the paragon use, but were very suspicious of its potential to be too good. The character isnt an overpowered one (I dont think anyway) but still....

Compared to other classess.....

4 skills........ pick any 10 as class....... 1 martial wep........ 1 feat.... good will..... 3/4 BAB..... +2 to a stat ..... d8 HD....... 2 caster lvls....... Sacrificing the 1 caster level and going pure caster the rest of the way seems quite worthy for that, regardless of what sort of caster you're going to be. One of the other guys was saying why wouldnt everyone take that? For a fighter even, you get 1 less BaB, a decent will save, a stat and 1 less feat than a fighter would and cast use the spells, its still alright. For rangers, and so on it seems quite nice.

Anyone else think taht the paragons are perhaps too good?
Arturius1
08-13-07, 10:22 PM Why do you think they only get 3 levels?
war_thog
08-14-07, 02:47 AM What a helpful response.
Im fully aware of that. But for those 3 levels, they would seem to be better than another class for the same amount.

Classes are meant to be balanced last I checked..... getting a 3 level class being better than 3 levels of another class does seem a tad.... slanty. Unless this is how they are meant to be? Anyone with an actual opinion want to weigh in?
claypigeons
08-14-07, 03:12 AM What a helpful response.
Im fully aware of that. But for those 3 levels, they would seem to be better than another class for the same amount.

Classes are meant to be balanced last I checked..... getting a 3 level class being better than 3 levels of another class does seem a tad.... slanty. Unless this is how they are meant to be? Anyone with an actual opinion want to weigh in?

Classes are balanced? What about the CW Samurai... the Druid, Wizard, Cleric... meh...

And no, the class isn't over powered. It's fine. Most classes actually have class features, instead of just advancing them. Human Paragon is like a PrC that only requires you to be human.

Besides that, you lose a caster. That's significant, and for what amounts to a small bonus (a few more skill points +1BAB, and a feat...). A lot of Gish-type characters use it, but a straight fighter (let's face it, you only take fighter for the feats. Why lose a feat and BAB...?) or caster would leave it alone.
TiwazTyrsfist
08-14-07, 01:27 PM What a helpful response.
Im fully aware of that. But for those 3 levels, they would seem to be better than another class for the same amount.

Classes are meant to be balanced last I checked..... getting a 3 level class being better than 3 levels of another class does seem a tad.... slanty. Unless this is how they are meant to be? Anyone with an actual opinion want to weigh in?

Classes are not Balanced.

They often tend towards similar power levels, but saying that the classes are balanced is incorrect.

Human paragon is a very nice subclass.
Is it a little more powerful than most classes? Probably yes.
Is it game breaking? Not at all.

If you REALLY, REALLY, Really think it's too powerful, Cut it back to +1 cl instead of +2 cl. Gain 1 caster level at second or something. But be sure to make that clear upfront.

Personally, I don't think it's too powerful.
trapspringer
08-14-07, 04:02 PM You can't assess "balance" by comparing one class to another. You have to consider the class in a party, and compare it's effectiveness at its role with the effectiveness of other party members.

For example, a wizard pwnzors a fighter, but in a party on an adventure, they don't step on each others toes and they both do their respective jobs better than one another. They are "balanced" for the purposes of an adventure (until upper middle levels, anyway).

Same deal here. In a party, your character won't be better at anyone's job than the character in question. You won't out-thieve the rogue, you won't out-fight the fighter, and honestly you won't outcast the wizard because you've diversified. He'll hit his next level of spells a level sooner than you do, etc. Honestly, you'll be comparable to a gish or a sorcerer.

But yea, it's a better build for soloing. It just isn't goin' to outshine anyone in a party situation.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
war_thog 08-13-07, 07:59 PM	Alright I just wrote up a lvl 5 char. Human paragon 3, Sorc 2. Now heres my question. Does anyone else thing that the paragons might be a touch good? The others in my gaming group have allowed the paragon use, but were very suspicious of its potential to be too good. The character isnt an overpowered one (I dont think anyway) but still.... Compared to other classess..... 4 skills........ pick any 10 as class....... 1 martial wep........ 1 feat.... good will..... 3/4 BAB..... +2 to a stat ..... d8 HD....... 2 caster lvls....... Sacrificing the 1 caster level and going pure caster the rest of the way seems quite worthy for that, regardless of what sort of caster you're going to be. One of the other guys was saying why wouldnt everyone take that? For a fighter even, you get 1 less BaB, a decent will save, a stat and 1 less feat than a fighter would and cast use the spells, its still alright. For rangers, and so on it seems quite nice. Anyone else think taht the paragons are perhaps too good?
Arturius1 08-13-07, 10:22 PM	Why do you think they only get 3 levels?
war_thog 08-14-07, 02:47 AM	What a helpful response. Im fully aware of that. But for those 3 levels, they would seem to be better than another class for the same amount. Classes are meant to be balanced last I checked..... getting a 3 level class being better than 3 levels of another class does seem a tad.... slanty. Unless this is how they are meant to be? Anyone with an actual opinion want to weigh in?
claypigeons 08-14-07, 03:12 AM	What a helpful response. Im fully aware of that. But for those 3 levels, they would seem to be better than another class for the same amount. Classes are meant to be balanced last I checked..... getting a 3 level class being better than 3 levels of another class does seem a tad.... slanty. Unless this is how they are meant to be? Anyone with an actual opinion want to weigh in? Classes are balanced? What about the CW Samurai... the Druid, Wizard, Cleric... meh... And no, the class isn't over powered. It's fine. Most classes actually have class features, instead of just advancing them. Human Paragon is like a PrC that only requires you to be human. Besides that, you lose a caster. That's significant, and for what amounts to a small bonus (a few more skill points +1BAB, and a feat...). A lot of Gish-type characters use it, but a straight fighter (let's face it, you only take fighter for the feats. Why lose a feat and BAB...?) or caster would leave it alone.
TiwazTyrsfist 08-14-07, 01:27 PM	What a helpful response. Im fully aware of that. But for those 3 levels, they would seem to be better than another class for the same amount. Classes are meant to be balanced last I checked..... getting a 3 level class being better than 3 levels of another class does seem a tad.... slanty. Unless this is how they are meant to be? Anyone with an actual opinion want to weigh in? Classes are not Balanced. They often tend towards similar power levels, but saying that the classes are balanced is incorrect. Human paragon is a very nice subclass. Is it a little more powerful than most classes? Probably yes. Is it game breaking? Not at all. If you REALLY, REALLY, Really think it's too powerful, Cut it back to +1 cl instead of +2 cl. Gain 1 caster level at second or something. But be sure to make that clear upfront. Personally, I don't think it's too powerful.
trapspringer 08-14-07, 04:02 PM	You can't assess "balance" by comparing one class to another. You have to consider the class in a party, and compare it's effectiveness at its role with the effectiveness of other party members. For example, a wizard pwnzors a fighter, but in a party on an adventure, they don't step on each others toes and they both do their respective jobs better than one another. They are "balanced" for the purposes of an adventure (until upper middle levels, anyway). Same deal here. In a party, your character won't be better at anyone's job than the character in question. You won't out-thieve the rogue, you won't out-fight the fighter, and honestly you won't outcast the wizard because you've diversified. He'll hit his next level of spells a level sooner than you do, etc. Honestly, you'll be comparable to a gish or a sorcerer. But yea, it's a better build for soloing. It just isn't goin' to outshine anyone in a party situation.