Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shout27 06-28-07, 02:55 AM	Instead of receiving: 1 Bonus Feat, Extra Skill Points, and Favored Class: Any This Character receives: Choice of A. Increased BAB (by one set: Poor to Average for example) B. Increased Saving Throw (from L20 +6 to L20 +12) C. 3 Class Skills of your choice, and 3 Skill Points/Level (3*4 at First level) Not Capable of Multi-classing before level 20 (neither Base nor Prestige) A Class "Shadow-level" as it were, with abilities defined by the following (note that classes with prohibiting factors, such as not wearing metal armor will disable the extra abilities for the given time): Rogue: receives Dodge Abilities + 2 Rogue special abilities at levels 10 + 16 and either; Sneak Attack as a Rogue of equal character level or both Trap Abilities + Evasion Wizard: gets a "Effective Arcane Caster Level" (can meet all requirements for Feats and Item Creation as a Caster of that level, however their Spells/day are limited to the bonus Spells they have from an exceptional Stat score. To keep track of things simply write it as *CL 0/??, with * being the magic type Arcane/Divine and ?? being the current character level, there is 1 way to raise the 0, however, it would only occur after Level 20 so i won't go into the method) as a character of equal level and either a Familiar or Scribe Scroll and the Wizard Bonus Feats. Druid: gets an "Effective Divine Caster Level" and either: Wild Shape as a Druid of the same level or the other Class Features + Animal Companion Cleric: gets an "Effective Divine Caster Level" and either: Turn Undead and 1 Cleric domain or Two Cleric Domains Bard: requires more work Barbarian: if main class is below 2 HD or 1 BAB sets raises to that level (Level 1 Wizard(Barbarian) HD is now D8, BAB +15), gets either Rage Abilities + DR abilities or Fast Movement + Dodge abilities Fighter: if main class is below 2 HD or 1 BAB sets raises to that level (Level 1 Wizard(Fighter) HD is now D6, BAB +15), either the Fighter Bonus Feats or Any Bonus Feat at levels 1, 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 Monk: Requires more work Sorcerer: As Wizard but no Feats Option (ECL + Familiar) Ranger: if main class is below by 1 full BAB set raise to that level. Effective Divine Caster Level, and either Combat Style + Favored Enemy or the other Class Features Paladin: if main class is below 2 HD or 1 BAB sets raises to that level (Level 1 Wizard(Paladin) HD is now D6, BAB +15), Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Effective Divine Caster Level and either: Smite, Aura of Courage, and Special Mount or Turn Undead, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Remove Disease. tell me what you think.
Tomkin 06-28-07, 10:41 AM	Honestly? I think it's kind of silly, overpowered, and doesn't have a lot of flavor to back it up. Consider this for a second. Your normal human wizard 1, 18 Int and the rest all 10s, gets 4 hp, 2 feats, and 28 skill points. A wizard (fighter) 1 of your race gets 6 hp, 2 feats, and 24 skill points. The only region in which the wizard (fighter) shows any sign of losing out is skill points. Oh, but I forgot: your wizard can also choose to get 3 extra skill points per level. Now look at this again at level 20. Considering that wizards don't really need to multiclass, we'll say they're both Wizard 20 for simplicity. Your wizard (fighter) now has 5-10 more feats, 21 more hit points on average, 5 more BAB, and 23 fewer skill points. Now maybe it's just me, but I'd say trading 23 skill points for 20 hit points is balanced - but add in the 5-10 feats and it should be pretty obviously broken. I don't even have to mention that this wizard can also pump his BAB up to full with the racial ability, or do some other cheese. Furthermore, you provided absolutely no background - why can't they multiclass? Why do they get better BAB or saves? What is the reasoning behind "shadow levels"? And what the heck is the Ring of Sustenance about? Right now the race seems like something you threw together so you could play something overpowered. My suggestions for improvement... well... I honestly have no idea what you're trying to accomplish, seeing as you have provided no background, so the only one I can give you right now is to scrap the shadow levels, scrap the multiclassing restriction, and scrap the bonus BAB/saves/skills. Which is probably not very helpful at all. (Sorry, its like 100 degrees here, I'm really cranky. Don't take it personally.)
shout27 06-28-07, 02:31 PM	Sorry about that, "Ring of Sustenance" = Character only needs 2 hours of Sleep to gain the benefits of 8 hours Rest. I was mostly thinking about what someone who grew up with the Ring of Sustenance or it's effects could accomplish, it'd generally be open to 3 character types: A highly born Noble, the descendant of a relatively high level PC, or a starting PC whose background includes a "Magically-Enforced Debt" of 2,500 GP or at the GMs option 1000 + 250/game month or some variation thereof. As for the Wizard Example that was just the easist value to use for the mechanics differences between Wizard(Fighter) and Wizard(Barbarian). Though you are right about the Fighter variants Feat abilities and i'll fix that when i finish separating Monk and Bard into 2 Main Branch Abilities. They can't multiclass before Epic Level to make the system simpler, since Epic Level Characters no longer get a standard BAB and i'm not allowing a Wizard(Fighter) to get all the Weapon/Armor Feats it helps but doesn't destroy things. A better example Would be the Wizard(Barbarian) who chose the Traps + Dodge Tree he still qualifies for a the "Portal Sense" Planar Substitution Level which means he actually has a chance of avoiding Portals he doesn't wish to go through at the cost of +1 to Trap Sense. The Flavor would come from NPC or PC families who adopt it, It is entirely up to the DM to allow something like this, anyways, so I'm not going to attach something like a Family Background to it, simply because Each Campaign is different and something like this is highly malleable. Fighter(Rogue) chose Backstab Tree without those 3 extra class skills (Disguise, Hide, Move Silently) he can't use it to it's fullest potential, ditto for the other Tree (Search, Disable Device, Open locks). Fighter (Paladin) Smite Tree my goodness, he won't run from a Dragon's Fear Aura (even at level 20!!), and a higher Will Saves could keep him from turning everyone. If i were to remove the Multiclass restriction, I'd have to put at the very Least a +2 Racial Level Adjustment in, as it is since they won't qualify for Prestige until after they're "teh Uber Epic" i can see either a +0 or +1 popping up.
Tomkin 06-28-07, 02:41 PM	But again, most if not all combinations are overpowered. In fact, just the first part is overpowered enough. I'd gladly trade any of the three options you listed for a feat and a skill point. The shadow levels are just icing on the cake. Think about it. You're giving up one skill point and one feat for: +5 BAB. That's the equivalent of taking the Epic Prowess feat five(!) times. Better, in fact, because you get the extra attack. +6 to any save. That's the equivalent of taking a feat (Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will) three times. +69 skill points by 20th level. That's... a lot of feats. I'd do that in a heartbeat. And shadow levels are like saying "no multiclassing, but you can gestalt". Balanced? I think not.
Bobson 06-28-07, 02:41 PM	The theory being that because they could stay up for 6 more hours a day, they had time to train in two different classes? Doesn't really make sense to me. Also, spellcasters have to get 8 hours rest even with a ring of sustenance.
shout27 06-28-07, 03:06 PM	not so much two different classes as 1 Aspect of another class which later on qualifies you for a PrC with the same aspect. Just realize what your saying though, simply bringing this variant (without having some previously verified connection to a current PC in the Campaign) in would require a Magically Binding DEAL (Which the DM can use to screw the world over, if the person you made a deal with was the CE guy looking for the world destroying item which you just happened to find at level 2) the deal doesn't have to be just 2,500 G P. This sub-race is for PC families who have already made names for themselves.
shout27 06-28-07, 03:12 PM	The theory being that because they could stay up for 6 more hours a day, they had time to train in two different classes? Doesn't really make sense to me. Also, spellcasters have to get 8 hours rest even with a ring of sustenance. That is a game mechanic designed to slow Wizards who expend everthing in 1 battle down, besides a Fighter(Wizard) 0/20 has only bonus spells/day if applicable. Though it should be noted that a Familiar can save his/her life, Item Creation Feats can do the same.
Khelvaster 06-29-07, 05:36 PM	The multiclass restriction applies to PrCs. Compare the wizard (fighter) to a wizard/ur-priest/mystic theurge, or (for a less perverse build) a wizard/master specialist (abjurer)/initiate of the sevenfold veil. Of course the ring version will be better than the normal version of the class, just as a PrC will be better than the normal version of the class. Think stuff through before you guys post, please.
archerpwr 06-29-07, 06:01 PM	The multiclass restriction applies to PrCs. Compare the wizard (fighter) to a wizard/ur-priest/mystic theurge, or (for a less perverse build) a wizard/master specialist (abjurer)/initiate of the sevenfold veil. Of course the ring version will be better than the normal version of the class, just as a PrC will be better than the normal version of the class. Think stuff through before you guys post, please. A better comparison would be wizard (fighter) to wizard 6/ fighter 1/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant champion 5/ knight phantom 7
shout27 06-30-07, 10:18 AM	the problem with that is after Level 20 they can multiclass, I figure that to keep them from growing in power exponentially. They're either limited to the "other side of the coin" so to speak (for the next 20 levels getting the other Class Feature, and/or filling those SACL back in, Level 40 ACL 20/20) or can choose a new base class ability.
shout27 06-30-07, 01:46 PM	Here is the separation for Fighter, Bard, and Monk: Fighter: if main class is below 2 HD or 1 BAB sets raises to that level (Level 1 Wizard(Fighter) HD is now D6, BAB +15), either the Fighter Bonus Feats without Weapon Specialization Available or Fighter Bonus Feats at levels 1, 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 with Specialization available. Bard: either Bardic Music and a "Effective Arcane Caster Level", or Actual Spellcasting level and Bardic Knowledge. Monk: either Ki or non-Ki abilities (with some exceptions) Ki: Still Mind, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Quivering Palm, Timeless Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Empty Body, Perfect Self non-Ki: Stunning Fist, Ki Strike, IUS, Unarmed Damage, Evasion, I. Evasion, Fast Movement, Flurry of Blows, AC Bonus, Slow Fall. Comments, welcome.