Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Relic 12-24-07, 02:01 PM	I am an immense fan of point buy... but sometimes I find the random dice rolling can create unexpected and interesting characters. I also am a fan of Shadowrun's character generation method. So I was thinking of merging all three concepts: dice rolling, point buy, and the Shadowrun method. And the result is this: Table 1 - Determine Benefits Bonus Selection Attributes SP Money Bonus A 8 (0) 8 1,000 (+1/+10%) 2 B 7 (0) 6 250 (-0%) 1 C 6 (1) 2 75 (-25%) 0 D 5 (2) 0 15 (-50%) 0 Table 2 - Buy Attribute Dice Rolls Cost Dice Role Range 3 14+1d4 15-18 2 10+2d4 11-18 1 6+2d6 8-18 0 3d6 3-18 Table 3 - Use Any left-over Attribute Points Range Increase By 3-8 +3 9-14 +2 15-17 +1 18 +0 Here's how it works: In Table 1, each column is assigned a value, A thru D. You can only use a value once. There are four columns and four values. Attributes: The number of attribute points received for purchasing Attribute Dice Rolls. The number in parenthesis is the number of automatic adjustments received to use on Table 3. Bonus Skill Points: The number of extra skill points received at 1st-level. These skill points are not multiplied by 4 at 1st level and are not received at any level other than 1st. money: The amount of money a beginning character starts with. If creating a character higher than 1st-level, the number in parenthesis represents the increase or decrease in overall wealth. For example, a 5th-level PC should have 10,000 GP in wealth. If the player had Money (D) then the player would end up with 5,000 GP in wealth (10,000 - 50%). Bonus: The number of bonus feats the player starts with. The bonus feats are divided up into three categories: Melee, Spellcaster, and Talented. A player is not limited to which category feats are selected from but the bonus feats must come from the feats listed in these three categories. These bonus feats must be feats selected at 1st-level and the character must meet the prerequisites for any selected feat. Bonus Feat Lists Melee: Armor Focus, Armor Proficiency (Heavy), Armor Proficiency (Light), Armor Proficiency (Medium), Ballista Proficiency, Bowslinger, Combat Awareness, Combat Focus, Combat Reflexes, Distracting Attack, Dodge, Evasive Reflexes, Expeditious Dodge, Feinting Expert, Improved Buckler Defense, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Feint, Improved Overrun, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Phalanx Fighting, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Powerful Charge, Quick Draw, Rapid Assault, Rapid Reload, Reckless Charge, Toughness, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus. Spellcaster: Arcane Manipulation, Arcane Mastery, Arcane Preparation, Combat Casting, Enlarge Spell, Eschew Materials, Imprint Stone, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (any), Spell Penetration, Spell Thematics, Spell-like Ability Focus, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Sudden Enlarge, Sudden Silent, Sudden Still. Talented: Acrobatic, Agile, Agile Athlete, Alertness, Animal Affinity, Athletic, Autonomous, Caver, City Slicker, Communicator, Confident, Cover Your Tracks, Daredevil Athlete, Dash, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Diligent, Endurance, Force of Personality, Great Fortitude, Grenadier, Guerrilla Scout, Guerrilla Warrior, Insightful, Insightful Reflexes, Investigator, Leap of the Heavens, Lingering Song, Lightning Reflexes, Magical Aptitude, Mountaineer, Negotiator, Night Haunt, Nimble Fingers, Nobody’s Fool, Persuasive, Psionic Affinity, Sea Legs, Self-Sufficient, Spell Hand, Stealthy, Track, Unquenchable Flame of Life. Once each column is assigned a value you move on to the next step, Table 2. You have a number of points to spend determined by the value you put into Attributes from Table 1. Each dice roll has a specific cost in points. The better the dice roll the higher the cost in points. 3 points gives a dice roll of 14+1d4 while 0 points gives the dice roll of 3d6. All points must be spent with the except of one point (i.e. you can have one point not spent). You can use the left-over point, if any, for Table 3. Table 3 allows any left-over points (or automatic adjustments received if you put C or D in Attributes for Table 1) to be used to increase attributes. You find the value the attribute is at... and increase by the listed bonus. For example, if you had a Constitution of 13 and had 1 left-over point you could use it on constitution and increase that 13 to a 15 (13 + 2 = 15). You cannot increase an attribute more than once through this method. If you have multiple adjustments, each adjustment must apply to a separate attribute. And that is it. This idea originally came from Sphyre, which can be found at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=782167
Relic 12-24-07, 02:02 PM	***RESERVED***
Relic 12-24-07, 02:08 PM	Three Sample Characters: Crunk: 1st-level Human Barbarian Attributes: A Skill Tricks: D Money: C Bonus: B Attribute Rolls: (8 points) Str: 3 (14+1d4) Dex: 1 (6+2d6) Con: 2 (10+2d4) Int: 0 (3d6) Wis: 1 (6+2d4) Cha: 0 (3d6) 1 Point Remaining Results of Dice Rolls Str: 17 Dex: 12 Con: 15 Int: 9 Wis: 12 Cha: 14 Adjustments: A couple of options... Str 17 could be increased to Str 18, Dex 12 could be increased to Dex 14, Con 15 could be increased to Con 16, Int 9 could be increased to Int 11, Wis 12 could be increased to Wis 14... In this case I'll go with Dex 12 increased to Dex 14. Final Results: Crunk, 1st-level Human Barbarian Str: 17 Dex: 14 Con: 15 Int: 9 Wis: 12 Cha: 14 Money: 75 gold Bonus Feat: Power Attack Magus, 1st-level Elf Sorcerer Attributes: C Skill Tricks: D Money: B Bonus: A Attribute Points: (6 points, 1 automatic adjustment) Str: 0 (3d6) Dex: 1 (6+2d6) Con: 1 (6+2d6) Int: 1 (6+2d6) Wis: 0 (3d6) Cha: 3 (14+1d4) Results of Dice Rolls: Str: 12 Dex: 13 Con: 17 Int: 11 Wis: 10 Cha: 18 Adjustments: Magus has one automatic adjustment and decides to spend it on Dexterity, making his Dexterity a 15 (13 +2 = 15). Final Results: Magus, 1st-level Elf Sorcerer Str: 12 Dex: 17 (15 +2 racial adjustment) Con: 15 (17 -2 racial adjustment) Int: 11 Wis: 10 Cha: 18 Money: 250 gold Bonus Feat: Spell Focus (Abjuration), Spell Penetration Peloran, 1st-level Dwarf Cleric of Pelor Attributes: A Skill Tricks: D Money: C Bonus: B Attribute Points (8 points) Str: 2 (10+2d4) Dex: 0 (3d6) Con: 2 (10+2d4) Int: 0 (3d6) Wis: 2 (10+2d4) Cha: 2 (10+2d4) Results of Dice Rolls: Str: 16 Dex: 10 Con: 13 Int: 14 Wis: 16 Cha: 18 Adjustments: None Final Results: Peloran, 1st-level Dwarf Cleric of Pelor Str: 16 Dex: 10 Con: 15 (13 +2 racial adjustment) Int: 14 Wis: 16 Cha: 16 (18 -2 racial adjustment) Money: 75 gp Bonus: Extra Turning
Rustmonster 12-24-07, 07:59 PM	Sweet, now my caster can always have between 20 and 23 in their casting stat. I'll use A in attributes, use D for skill tricks, B for Feats, and C for money. I'll be all set, plus have a bonus feat, and have an outrageous casting stat!
Relic 12-25-07, 09:25 AM	Sweet, now my caster can always have between 20 and 23 in their casting stat. I'll use A in attributes, use D for skill tricks, B for Feats, and C for money. I'll be all set, plus have a bonus feat, and have an outrageous casting stat! Having your highest ability in your prime casting stat is pretty standard. And while 1st-level arcane casters really do not need the money if you create a character beyond 1st-level the money choice becomes a lot more important. Having one extra bonus feat is a boon... but nothing that cannot be achieved right now with flaws. I think it balances out since I do not use flaws. One option I could change is to make Skill Tricks into Skill Points instead. A = 8 skill points, B = 6 skill points, C = 4 skill points, and D = 2 skill points. However, that changes the dynamics of class design and penalizes classes that need high skill points by necessity (rogues, bards, ToB classes, etc).
UAMDB 12-26-07, 10:31 AM	Having your highest ability in your prime casting stat is pretty standard. And while 1st-level arcane casters really do not need the money if you create a character beyond 1st-level the money choice becomes a lot more important. Having one extra bonus feat is a boon... but nothing that cannot be achieved right now with flaws. I think it balances out since I do not use flaws. One option I could change is to make Skill Tricks into Skill Points instead. A = 8 skill points, B = 6 skill points, C = 4 skill points, and D = 2 skill points. However, that changes the dynamics of class design and penalizes classes that need high skill points by necessity (rogues, bards, ToB classes, etc). Actually it does not penalize the skill monkey classes. It is not like they are loosing anything if they choose to take D in Skils. Also in the skill trick section, it states that you can unlearn any skill for to skill points. If I remember correctly. So they could already convert the skill tricks to skill points. On the surface it seems ok, but can be overpowerful. Example: A: Attributes b: Money C: Skils D: Feats Used zero points and rolled 3d6 for all stats. I had Excell do this for me "Rolled" Stats 17 18 13 8 7 11 New Stats after using unused points 17 +1 18 18 +0 18 13 +3 17 (13+2+1+1) 8 +1 11 7 +1 10 11 +2 15 (11+2+2) I would be really happy with 18,18,17,11,10,15 regardless of what class I made. I still have the same amount of money, three powerful stats for what ever my concept and classes I take, and the same number of feats and skill points. Of course I did get some good rolls from excell, but even if I got lower numbers and was not needing multiply stats with 18, i could still make what ever character I wanted to with several higher stats. Its just a matter of what you want your power level to be in your world. I run a gesalt game where I gave everyone 18,18,17,16,15,14 But there challenges are harder than normal. Thats just my thought on the matter.
Nox_Noctis 12-26-07, 06:06 PM	I am an immense fan of point buy... but sometimes I find the random dice rolling can create unexpected and interesting characters. I also am a fan of Shadowrun's character generation method. So I was thinking of merging all three concepts: dice rolling, point buy, and the Shadowrun method. And the rest is this: Table 1 - Determine Benefits Skill Selection Attributes Trick Money Bonus A 8 (0) 3 1,000 (+1/+25%) 2 B 7 (0) 2 250 (-0%) 1 C 6 (1) 1 75 (-25%) 0 D 5 (2) 0 15 (-50%) 0 Table 2 - Buy Attribute Dice Rolls Cost Dice Role Range 3 14+1d4 15-18 2 10+2d4 11-18 1 6+2d6 8-18 0 3d6 3-18 Table 3 - Use Any left-over Attribute Points Range Increase By 3-8 +3 9-14 +2 15-18 +1 Here's how it works: In Table 1, each column is assigned a value, A thru D. You can only use a value once. There are four columns and four values. Attributes: The number of attribute points received for purchasing Attribute Dice Rolls. The number in parenthesis is the number of automatic adjustments recieved. Skill Tricks: The number of skill tricks received for free. I am in the process of creating some useful but not overtly-powerful skill tricks accessible for 1st-level characters. money: The amount of money a beginning character starts with. If creating a character higher than 1st-level, the number in parenthesis represents the increase or decrease in overall wealth. For example, a 5th-level PC should have 10,000 GP in wealth. If the player had Money (D) then the player would end up with 7,500 GP in wealth (10,000 - 25%). Bonus: The number of bonus feats the player starts with. I do not use flaws so this is a way for extra feats to be introduced. A player cannot select a feat for which he or she does not meet the prerequisites for. I have a few problems with this (though nothing against the core idea of it): 1) There is no incentive to use C on Bonus. If you are left with C and D and Bonus is still open, D will always go into Bonus. 2) Two bonus feats is a lot. This might seem contrary to my first point (since bumping C to 1 necessitates shifting B and A upward as well). I think awarding bonus feats (especially two for free) is dangerous. I like the idea of this column to an extent, but I think it isn't worth the trouble and imbalance. 3) This does allow spell casters to always have 20-23 in their primary casting statistic, not including racial bonuses. Since they can get a bonus feat (B option) while still using the A option to get 20-23 in their casting statistic, the human race is somewhat less appealing (though another bonus feat is still nice, just less valuable comparatively). This means most casters will begin with 22-25 in their primary casting statistic. Maybe this is just my opinion, but I think that is way too high for level 1. 4) 18's are too frequent in my opinion. Here is another statistic rolling re-do: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=782167 I think the one sixth chance works well. 5) Money is almost always going to be dumped. This amount of money is comparatively less at later levels, so starting at level 1 with D money will have almost no lasting effect on most characters. This also further encourages Vow of Poverty (especially considering the character gets bonus statistics or bonus feats by forgoing the money they already do not need). 6) 1,000 bonus gold is a lot at first level. While it becomes hardly influential at later levels, at level 1, this is a major impact. This amount should be reduced. Classes only start with up to 250 gold as it is. Giving them a bonus 1,000 gold on top of that creates odd disparity at level 1. 7) Skill tricks should be changed into skill points so that they are more universally applicable. Not everyone has access to books detailing skill tricks (or feats relating to skill tricks, etc.). I can definitely see skill tricks being an optional variant, but skill points are much more universal. It would appeal to a wider audience to use skill points.
Relic 12-26-07, 06:18 PM	Actually it does not penalize the skill monkey classes. It is not like they are loosing anything if they choose to take D in Skils. Also in the skill trick section, it states that you can unlearn any skill for to skill points. If I remember correctly. So they could already convert the skill tricks to skill points. I would not allow Skill Tricks acquired at character generation to be converted into skill points. On the surface it seems ok, but can be overpowerful. I'm still trying to determine what would be a good "power" level to put the Attribute Points at. I might start at 6 and end at 3. One of the reasons I posted it is for review Example: Used zero points and rolled 3d6 for all stats. I had Excell do this for me "Rolled" Stats This can be avoided by putting in a couple of rules in place, such as: 1) Only one Attribute Point can be left to be used on Table 3 (does not include the free adjustment for Attribute Value C or D). 2) An ability score can only be adjusted once. Each adjustment must apply to a different ability score. Granted I just made these up on the fly but they would probably take care of players using nothing but the adjustment table (table 3). Thats just my thought on the matter. Good thoughts. It is still a generation method in design and there are going to be issues/ideas I did not think about. I think it is a good start though. The chances for rolling good stats are likely to be higher. In 20 test builds, the average total for stat bonuses was +9. The lowest was at +5 and the highest was at +13. Since I am looking for a range around +9 or +10 then it looks like I'm close to my mark. However I will need a lot more tests to make sure that the tests are consistent.
Relic 12-26-07, 06:52 PM	I have a few problems with this (though nothing against the core idea of it): 1) There is no incentive to use C on Bonus. If you are left with C and D and Bonus is still open, D will always go into Bonus. This is intentional. If you want a bonus feat you have to use A or B. Part of the intent of the A-D system is you have to sacrifice something for the goodies. 2) Two bonus feats is a lot. This might seem contrary to my first point (since bumping C to 1 necessitates shifting B and A upward as well). I think awarding bonus feats (especially two for free) is dangerous. I like the idea of this column to an extent, but I think it isn't worth the trouble and imbalance. One idea is to change the feats granted for character levels (1 every 3rd level) to something like 2 every 5th level. But I prefer making the Bonus for feats available only at option A and B. Two bonus feats is nothing that cannot be done with flaws in the current system (though flaws are optional). And since these feats have to be feats that a 1st-level character can qualify for then there is a limitation. It does mean that characters will be able to meet prerequisites for prestige classes earlier. That is easily addressed by making the prestige classes have skill rank minimum requirements or base attack bonus requirements. The bonus feats also can have an added benefit of making some characters more versatile. 3) This does allow spell casters to always have 20-23 in their primary casting statistic, not including racial bonuses. Since they can get a bonus feat (B option) while still using the A option to get 20-23 in their casting statistic, the human race is somewhat less appealing (though another bonus feat is still nice, just less valuable comparatively). This means most casters will begin with 22-25 in their primary casting statistic. Maybe this is just my opinion, but I think that is way too high for level 1. The highest an attribute can be with this system at 1st level is 21 (18 +1 adjustment +2 racial bonus). Though this does present one flaw... I should change the adjustment table so that 18 is +0. 4) 18's are too frequent in my opinion. Here is another statistic rolling re-do: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=782167 I think the one sixth chance works well. My idea was spurned from Sphyre's though I did not remember where I saw it and could not find it on the search forums. I'll edit my original post and put the credit where credit is due. Sorry Sphyre! 5) Money is almost always going to be dumped. This amount of money is comparatively less at later levels, so starting at level 1 with D money will have almost no lasting effect on most characters. This also further encourages Vow of Poverty (especially considering the character gets bonus statistics or bonus feats by forgoing the money they already do not need). I do not use Vow of Poverty so that is not a concern for my gaming group. And at the moment I do not have an answer for those that do make use of the Vow of Poverty. For those that do not use Vow of Poverty, to make money an issue for all levels simply make the money penalty apply on all money received by that PC. His character wealth is effectively reduced for the life of the character. Being 25% or even 50% below the given character wealth is a fairly hefty penalty... at least in my games it is. 6) 1,000 bonus gold is a lot at first level. While it becomes hardly influential at later levels, at level 1, this is a major impact. This amount should be reduced. Classes only start with up to 250 gold as it is. Giving them a bonus 1,000 gold on top of that creates odd disparity at level 1. The disparity is on purpose. Not too much available for a 1st-level character... a horse perhaps, or some good heavy armor. Maybe if the DM is lenient a few low-level potions or scrolls. Nothing that is going to swing the game out of balance beyond the control of a DM. It is easily reduced though. If 1,000 gp is too high simply make it whatever you deem is good for your campaign. But I might reduce the bonus money beyond 1st-level to just +10% instead of +25%. A 25% additional wealth difference is quite a bit at the higher levels while +10% is still a worth-wile bonus. 7) Skill tricks should be changed into skill points so that they are more universally applicable. Not everyone has access to books detailing skill tricks (or feats relating to skill tricks, etc.). I can definitely see skill tricks being an optional variant, but skill points are much more universal. It would appeal to a wider audience to use skill points. Building off that idea... I can make the skill points into Bonus Skill Points. Start it at 4 with A and D would be 0. I'll have to play around with that idea to see how it works. I already use a house rule where all classes get an extra 2 skill points. I might have to eliminate that house rule if I use Bonus Skill Points with this. Thanks!
Nox_Noctis 12-26-07, 08:27 PM	This is intentional. If you want a bonus feat you have to use A or B. Part of the intent of the A-D system is you have to sacrifice something for the goodies. While making the price steeper is good, it also means that people can always get a more efficient deal than C by taking D. It makes C pointless. It isn't even worth listing as an option. One idea is to change the feats granted for character levels (1 every 3rd level) to something like 2 every 5th level. But I prefer making the Bonus for feats available only at option A and B. While this would make these bonus feats comparatively less valuable (and thus less problematic in creating imbalance), that just shifts the power level much higher. Two bonus feats is nothing that cannot be done with flaws in the current system (though flaws are optional). And since these feats have to be feats that a 1st-level character can qualify for then there is a limitation. It does mean that characters will be able to meet prerequisites for prestige classes earlier. That is easily addressed by making the prestige classes have skill rank minimum requirements or base attack bonus requirements. The bonus feats also can have an added benefit of making some characters more versatile. Flaws are not always allowed (many DMs disallow them because they tend to be abused and used to achieve absurd power levels with odd builds that require extra feats). Designs should be made with variants in mind, yes, but not for variants (unless specifically noted as such). If you intend this variant to only be used with games allowing flaws, make that clear. If not, then you cannot assume the existence of flaws in your design. There are many feats that one can take at first level. That is hardly a restriction. The fact that many feats require other feats that one can take at first level also undermines your argument. By getting prerequisite feats out of the way, one can focus on and gain better/more powerful feats sooner. Prestige classes are not the only way that feats can be abused. The highest an attribute can be with this system at 1st level is 21 (18 +1 adjustment +2 racial bonus). Though this does present one flaw... I should change the adjustment table so that 18 is +0. As written, you can take A statistics, D on everything else, roll an 18, place 5 unspent points into your top statistic, and then add a racial bonus. That makes 25, not 21. If you intended it to work otherwise, you need to change what you have written. My idea was spurned from Sphyre's though I did not remember where I saw it and could not find it on the search forums. I'll edit my original post and put the credit where credit is due. Sorry Sphyre! It was spawned, not spurned. To spurn is to make contemptuous remark of a thing. That's irrelevant to this though. I do not use Vow of Poverty so that is not a concern for my gaming group. And at the moment I do not have an answer for those that do make use of the Vow of Poverty. For those that do not use Vow of Poverty, to make money an issue for all levels simply make the money penalty apply on all money received by that PC. His character wealth is effectively reduced for the life of the character. Being 25% or even 50% below the given character wealth is a fairly hefty penalty... at least in my games it is. Let me know when you get something for Vow of Poverty. For the rest of this, how do you plan to implement that? It is pretty hard to explain (logically) why the four gold PC X picks up becomes two gold while PC Y could pick it up and it would remain as four gold in his pocket. Penalizing the amount of gold the party receives does not necessarily solve it either. If they distribute it evenly, PC X still gets more gold than he ought to since there are more people to offset his penalty. Forcing a group to give the PC less of the loot in the game based on events out of character is distasteful in my opinion. The disparity is on purpose. Not too much available for a 1st-level character... a horse perhaps, or some good heavy armor. Maybe if the DM is lenient a few low-level potions or scrolls. Nothing that is going to swing the game out of balance beyond the control of a DM. The disparity at low levels is huge, however. 1,000 gold is over four times what anyone can even have (assuming you start with maximum or rolled gold [even then just a chance], not average, minimum, or any other amount). That is on top of any other gold they have from their class. At low levels, a good set of heavy armor can make you impossible to hit by most enemies of the appropriate challenge rating. The higher price is supposed to delay the level you reach it at. Your system, with no offense and only observation, seems to simply increase the power level. This does not make it invalid as an option, of course, but it needs to be said. If it is indeed supposed to increase power levels, it should also state that clearly as part of an introduction to this system so it is not mistaken as simply an equal alternative to the current rolling method. It is easily reduced though. If 1,000 gp is too high simply make it whatever you deem is good for your campaign. But I might reduce the bonus money beyond 1st-level to just +10% instead of +25%. A 25% additional wealth difference is quite a bit at the higher levels while +10% is still a worth-wile bonus. How does the +#% work exactly in terms of in-character explanation? I am referring back to the point I made about gold before. Also, why does "C" (generally accepted as a passing/decent term) give a penalty? I am not trying to come off as harsh. I am simply expressing my observations and opinions.
Relic 12-27-07, 12:17 AM	While making the price steeper is good, it also means that people can always get a more efficient deal than C by taking D. It makes C pointless. It isn't even worth listing as an option. I understand your argument but I do not want to provide a bonus feat for option C or D. Maybe I can come up with some other benefit, such as a reduced cost to retrain a feat or something... but option A and B are the only options that will be available to gain an extra feat. Flaws are not always allowed (many DMs disallow them because they tend to be abused and used to achieve absurd power levels with odd builds that require extra feats). Designs should be made with variants in mind, yes, but not for variants (unless specifically noted as such). If you intend this variant to only be used with games allowing flaws, make that clear. If not, then you cannot assume the existence of flaws in your design. This can be used with or without flaws being available. This is not meant to replace flaws. It is meant as one different way to generate characters out of a myriad of many different ways. If flaws are available, great (though I do not recommend using this generation method if flaws are available - talk it over with your DM prior to creating a character). If flaws are not available then this method becomes a little more viable. There are many feats that one can take at first level. That is hardly a restriction. The fact that many feats require other feats that one can take at first level also undermines your argument. By getting prerequisite feats out of the way, one can focus on and gain better/more powerful feats sooner. Prestige classes are not the only way that feats can be abused. One idea to limit the feat selection is to generate a general list of selectable feats... or maybe a general category they must select from such as Melee, Skilled, and Spellcaster, with each category having a list of feats that can be selected from. This would give the DM the tools to provide feats that she thinks are appropriate. As written, you can take A statistics, D on everything else, roll an 18, place 5 unspent points into your top statistic, and then add a racial bonus. That makes 25, not 21. If you intended it to work otherwise, you need to change what you have written. It has been changed. You can only use unspent points once per attribute, and you must spend all attributes points but 1. At most, you can have 3 attribute adjustments (Attribute option D and 1 unspent attribute point) and each attribute adjustment must be applied to a different attribute. That makes the maximum of 18 plus any racial adjustments. It was spawned, not spurned. To spurn is to make contemptuous remark of a thing. That's irrelevant to this though. Thought that looked weird. I was too much in a hurry to ponder on it though. Let me know when you get something for Vow of Poverty. For the rest of this, how do you plan to implement that? It is pretty hard to explain (logically) why the four gold PC X picks up becomes two gold while PC Y could pick it up and it would remain as four gold in his pocket. Penalizing the amount of gold the party receives does not necessarily solve it either. If they distribute it evenly, PC X still gets more gold than he ought to since there are more people to offset his penalty. Forcing a group to give the PC less of the loot in the game based on events out of character is distasteful in my opinion. For Vow of Poverty, I think if I were to allow Vow of Poverty I would require the PC put Money as option A. I like this idea on a balance view... Shadowrun does the same thing with magic in that it requires magic-using PCs to select option A or B for their magic column (A for full-fledged magic users and B for physical/astral adepts). It requires the PC to sacrifice some of the character's benefits (i.e. no A selection in any other column) to receive the benefits of Vow of Poverty. As because the PC has a Vow of Poverty, money would not be an in-game issue (the PC would have to donate it to a needful charity/organization). One idea I had to represent the GP reduction for any PC that has money as option C or D is background history. Membership in a thieves guild, an unscrupulous debt owed to a loan shark, charities given to a church and/or organization... or any other reason the player and/or DM wants to create that burdens/benefits a PC in-game story immersion. The disparity at low levels is huge, however. 1,000 gold is over four times what anyone can even have (assuming you start with maximum or rolled gold [even then just a chance], not average, minimum, or any other amount). That is on top of any other gold they have from their class. At low levels, a good set of heavy armor can make you impossible to hit by most enemies of the appropriate challenge rating. The higher price is supposed to delay the level you reach it at. Your system, with no offense and only observation, seems to simply increase the power level. This does not make it invalid as an option, of course, but it needs to be said. If it is indeed supposed to increase power levels, it should also state that clearly as part of an introduction to this system so it is not mistaken as simply an equal alternative to the current rolling method. I think the benefit should be worth it if you are giving up the possibility of a bonus feat, bonus skill points (I decided to go with bonus skill points), or the chance for better attributes. Basically, it gives a PC the wealth of a 2nd-level PC (slightly more since a 2nd-level PC has 900 gp). Full plate is only a +3 AC bonus difference from Chain mail... and chain mail is available for 1st-level characters. A +3 AC differential is a nice bonus but not one I consider game-breaking. Add in the fact that 1st-level characters are fragile to begin with... I do not see this as a big problem. How does the +#% work exactly in terms of in-character explanation? I am referring back to the point I made about gold before. Organizations, churches, clubs, loan sharks, guilds... all can take/provide money for a PC. It could be an ancestral allowance or perhaps the PC has to support a sibling or a child. Lots of tools available for the DM to use to provide some personal involvement for the PC in his campaign. Also, why does "C" (generally accepted as a passing/decent term) give a penalty? I wasn't thinking of A-D as terms of grades. It could just as simply be 1-4. I am not trying to come off as harsh. I am simply expressing my observations and opinions. All good. Made some good points and it helps me tie all this together and make it not only more plausible to use but will ultimately make it more presentable and balanced when finished. :D
Relic 12-27-07, 12:32 AM	I changed the 2nd column from Bonus Skill Tricks to Bonus Skill Points. A = 8 points, B = 6 points, C = 2 points, D = 0 points. I wanted A and B to be worth something if a player chooses the option and since there is a feat that gives you 5 skill points I needed to make it higher than 5 (since you could just take a bonus feat and use it to get that 5 Skill Point feat.. think it is called Open-Minded?). Thus, A has a significant number of skill points as a bonus and B has one point higher than 5. C tampers out at 2 points and D does not provide any bonus.
UAMDB 12-27-07, 09:05 AM	I like the change to the skill points. Do not change the Bonus Feats Column. This person has never played 3rd ed Shadowrun. It is the samething as magic. Either you place A in Magic or you place E in magic. I how about the change of you can only raise an ability once unless after adjustments it has +0 or less. That way if someone rolls really bad that can at least get it to +0. Please note that I was not trying to say that your system was a bad thing. I was just pointing out a few loopholes so that you could modify it if you wanted. Also one more thing on changing the feats column. Do not make it a feat/3 lvs or 2/5 lvs. That will really change the balance of the game. As is a character is getting 2 bonus feats at first level. They must qualify for the feats, and at first level that limits a lot of feats certain classes can get. If you change the progression of feats at later levels, characters will be getting more powerful feats than they were ever meant to get.
Relic 12-27-07, 01:17 PM	I like the change to the skill points. I think it works better myself. Do not change the Bonus Feats Column. This person has never played 3rd ed Shadowrun. It is the same thing as magic. Either you place A in Magic or you place E in magic. I am not changing A or B granting a bonus feat. I may change the structure of the bonus feat itself though. I do like the idea of having a list of bonus feats in three categories: Melee bonus feats, Skill bonus feats, and Spellcaster bonus feats. Perhaps later today I will work on the lists themselves. Please note that I was not trying to say that your system was a bad thing. I was just pointing out a few loopholes so that you could modify it if you wanted. No worries. Everyone has offered some constructive criticism and insights. It has all been good. Also one more thing on changing the feats column. Do not make it a feat/3 lvs or 2/5 lvs. That will really change the balance of the game. I am not planning on doing this either. It was simply brainstorming for other options. As it is, a character is getting 2 bonus feats at first level. They must qualify for the feats, and at first level that limits a lot of feats certain classes can get. If you change the progression of feats at later levels, characters will be getting more powerful feats than they were ever meant to get. One point mentioned was that with the bonus feats characters may be able to access higher level feats earlier. I do not see this as much of an issue since most of the higher level feats have minimum BAB requirements. There might be an issue with non-melee feats such as metamagic feats or divine feats.
Relic 12-28-07, 05:20 PM	I added a limited list of feats available to select from for the bonus feats. Melee: Armor Focus, Armor Proficiency (Heavy), Armor Proficiency (Light), Armor Proficiency (Medium), Ballista Proficiency, Bowslinger, Combat Awareness, Combat Focus, Combat Reflexes, Distracting Attack, Dodge, Evasive Reflexes, Expeditious Dodge, Feinting Expert, Improved Buckler Defense, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Feint, Improved Overrun, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Phalanx Fighting, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Powerful Charge, Quick Draw, Rapid Assault, Rapid Reload, Reckless Charge, Toughness, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus. Spellcaster: Arcane Manipulation, Arcane Mastery, Arcane Preparation, Combat Casting, Enlarge Spell, Eschew Materials, Imprint Stone, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (any), Spell Penetration, Spell Thematics, Spell-like Ability Focus, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Sudden Enlarge, Sudden Silent, Sudden Still. Talented: Acrobatic, Agile, Agile Athlete, Alertness, Animal Affinity, Athletic, Autonomous, Caver, City Slicker, Communicator, Confident, Cover Your Tracks, Daredevil Athlete, Dash, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Diligent, Endurance, Force of Personality, Great Fortitude, Grenadier, Guerrilla Scout, Guerrilla Warrior, Insightful, Insightful Reflexes, Investigator, Leap of the Heavens, Lingering Song, Lightning Reflexes, Magical Aptitude, Mountaineer, Negotiator, Night Haunt, Nimble Fingers, Nobody’s Fool, Persuasive, Psionic Affinity, Sea Legs, Self-Sufficient, Spell Hand, Stealthy, Track, Unquenchable Flame of Life. I have also been thinking about reducing the number of Attribute Points available. Make the list look something like: A = 6 (1) B = 5 (1) C = 5 D = 4 I'm still running test figures though to see amount of Attribute Points work best for my game.