Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Derrick 12-05-06, 10:50 AM	I noticed, tonight, that when you get the "Bonus Feat" class ability from more than one source while Gestalting, you ignore the class that gives you the feats more slowly. So, Fighter/Wizard gestalts don't get the bonus Wizard feats at 5, 10, 15 & 20 (they do get Scribe Scroll at 1st, at least), Fighter/Monk gestalts don't get the bonus Monk feats at 1, 2 & 6, etc. This doesn't really matter, but it does further the impression that D&D is somewhat cruel to the Fighter. :raincloud
Malkieri 12-05-06, 05:55 PM	I'm not so sure. The wording in the Gestalt section is profoundly terrible in all aspects. I've always taken that to insinuate you can't go Rogue/Ninja and double up on your sneak attacks, or Fighter/Warblade and get all those bonus combat feats. I mean, you get bonus Combat feats from fighter, but what do bonus arcane feats have to do with bonus combat feats? In my understanding, the class features have to be/do the same thing for them to not stack. In all honesty, this is a good question to e-mail wizards, because you may get a better answer than you think. It says in the text: "Class features that both classes share [such as Uncanny Dodge] accrue at the rate of the faster class." However, it's hard to say the bonus feats from being a wizard is "shared" with the bonus feats from being a fighter, seeing as how they are so dissimiliar.
Carmath The Pure 12-06-06, 04:31 AM	As specifically written (i.e. both classes gain "bonus feat" at certain levels) it would seem to be restricted. As Malkieri noted, though, the lists for wizard & fighter are completely different so I could see allowing the gestalt character to get both. I'm not so sure about fighter/monk, though, as all of the monk bonuses are on the fighter list as well.
X-Codes 12-06-06, 04:50 AM	I don't get why you don't just let them stack. If you're going Rogue/Ninja for the Supreme Sneak Attack, you're going into a gestalt game with d6 HD, 3/4 BAB, and only 1 good save thats neither Fortitude nor Will. Thats something that we COers like to call "fragile" and, in a Gestalt game, thats inexcusable. You'll die. You'll die fast, hard, and often. You'll ask the Cleric to res you and he'll say ":censored: no!" Ask him to sell your stuff for the components and he'll say "So you can die easier? :censored: no!" What does the Warblade gain from the Fighter feats? Not a lot. You basically get a Warblade with a lot of feats. It plays exactly the same way, and has the exact same numbers outside of the feats. Meanwhile, that Warblade/Psion over there is dealing just as much damage (give or take about 3-4 a hit), hitting just as easily (give or take about +1-+2 a hit), has just of high an AC (give or take 1 or 2 points), and lasting just as long in melee (give or take a handful of hitpoints). Oh wait, he's not using Share Pain + Vigor with his Psicrystal, Offensive Precience/Precognition, or any other 1337 :censored: like Metamorphosis, Force Screen, Psionic Lion's Charge, or any other crap like that... well at least not yet he isn't, but when he does, he'll kick the Warblade/Fighter's balls off.
Derrick 12-06-06, 09:16 AM	Well, I don't think there's anything wrong with allowing Gestalt characters to obtain additional feats from more than one class - even when those feats seem to be of a similar kind. In fact, they already can if the class features that grant the additional feats have different names. :) It's just that the Fighter, Monk and Wizard all have the "Bonus Feat" class feature, so it doesn't stack in Gestalt. My own fix for this would be to change the name of all "Bonus Feat" (and other feat-granting class features) to "(Class name) Bonus Feat" (or "(Class name) (feat-granting class feature)"). If you aren't as fussy as that, then stating that you allow the exception could work, too - but I think it invites players to try it on with other, potentially problematic, cases.
deanruel 12-06-06, 03:47 PM	I have nothing to add to this conversation, I am only here because this topic has the best name I've ever seen in the House Rules forum and I felt left out not posting in it.
User5127 12-06-06, 11:03 PM	I have nothing to add to this conversation, I am only here because this topic has the best name I've ever seen in the House Rules forum and I felt left out not posting in it. awesome! lol anyways I rule they stack its a class ability. it stacks. esspecially in the wiz/ftr combo. i mean you can't use a fighter bonus feat for a wizard feat and vice versa and even if you could i'd still let it stack. the way I rule gestalt campaigns is you take the better of BAB, save, hd, skills. and track the rest. so feats, class abilkities, spells/day etc all stack. to balance it though I also rule that the stacking of abilities can't exceed what would be appropriate for a nongestalt character. the character is supposed to have more options than a normal character of the same level. so they have more spells per day, more hp, more bonus feats and combat options. but stacking something to effectivly double their power for their level I don't allow. i figure its a reasonable request. (to prevent the 40d6 SA rogue/ninja at level 20. seriously. thats just powergaming your character for the numbers.)
Sae Cael Oanar 12-07-06, 01:23 AM	fighter/psywar?
User5127 12-07-06, 01:34 AM	fighter/psywar? ummm. what about it?
Derrick 12-07-06, 02:17 AM	Glad you guys liked the title. :) the way I rule gestalt campaigns is you take the better of BAB, save, hd, skills. and track the rest. so feats, class abilkities, spells/day etc all stack. to balance it though I also rule that the stacking of abilities can't exceed what would be appropriate for a nongestalt character. the character is supposed to have more options than a normal character of the same level. so they have more spells per day, more hp, more bonus feats and combat options. but stacking something to effectivly double their power for their level I don't allow. i figure its a reasonable request. I really don't know what this means. Do you allow Smite Evil bonus damage to stack with Weapon Specialisation bonus damage? That does exceed what would be possible for a non-Gestalt Paladin of the same level (by 2), so it seems to be excluded. Equally, it would seem that combining a high BAB with, say, Cleric spells that you've cast on yourself is out, because that's not something that a Cleric or full BAB class could do at the same level. Of course, at this point, it starts looking like you don't allow much of anything from Gestalt. :( (to prevent the 40d6 SA rogue/ninja at level 20. seriously. thats just powergaming your character for the numbers.) Seriously? It's not. Ninja/Rogue is a pretty lousy gestalt, even compared to PHB-only combinations like Druid/Monk.
enlightened 12-07-06, 03:28 AM	to balance it though I also rule that the stacking of abilities can't exceed what would be appropriate for a nongestalt character. the character is supposed to have more options than a normal character of the same level. so they have more spells per day, more hp, more bonus feats and combat options. but stacking something to effectivly double their power for their level I don't allow. i figure its a reasonable request. (to prevent the 40d6 SA rogue/ninja at level 20. seriously. thats just powergaming your character for the numbers.) This is exactly what I was trying to say over in that other thread, but somehow couldn't express clearly.
ff6shadow 12-07-06, 04:40 AM	The real way to look at it is at the feats themselves. Fighter Bonus Feat - These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. Wizard Bonus Feat - she can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or Spell Mastery. Psychic Warrior - These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats or psionic feats. - A psychic warrior cannot choose feats that specifically require levels in the fighter class unless he is a multiclass character with the requisite levels in the fighter class. Each of these class features are called Bonus Feat, but each has a different description of where the feat can be drawn from. Thus a Fighter/Wizard gets all 15 bonus feats from his two classes, a Psychic Warrior/Wizard gets all 12 of his bonus feats, and a Fighter/Psyshic Warrior gets all 19 of his bonus feats. But a Fighter/Rogue, using the feat rogue variant, does not get 22 bonus feats, since the the feat Rogue's feats are identical in progression and description to the Fighters. On the subject of Rogue/Ninja, Sudden Strike counts as sneak attack for prerequisites, and therefore should also count as Sneak Attack for Gestalt. Thus eliminating the guy who sneaks up and gets 40d6 dice per attack. Note: Clips presented as feats description were taken from the SRD, and were edited, removing information not pertinent to the discussion, such as levels obtained, or reminders of needing requirements to take a feat.
User5127 12-07-06, 11:40 PM	Glad you guys liked the title. :) I really don't know what this means. Do you allow Smite Evil bonus damage to stack with Weapon Specialisation bonus damage? That does exceed what would be possible for a non-Gestalt Paladin of the same level (by 2), so it seems to be excluded. Equally, it would seem that combining a high BAB with, say, Cleric spells that you've cast on yourself is out, because that's not something that a Cleric or full BAB class could do at the same level. Of course, at this point, it starts looking like you don't allow much of anything from Gestalt. :( Seriously? It's not. Ninja/Rogue is a pretty lousy gestalt, even compared to PHB-only combinations like Druid/Monk. well I work it this way. for example purposes lets use level 10 gestalt characters vs 2 level 10 normal characters (one from each side of the gestalt tree), IE: 10 ftr/wiz vs 10 ftr and 10 wiz a level 10 sor/wiz doesn't combine CL, why? because they'd be CL 20 at level 10. clearly broken. they would track spells/day speratly (though both cast arcane spells) and this character would have sor spells known and a wizards spell book. these again would be tracked differently. this character obviously couldn't use a sor spell known and put it in a wiz spell slot and vice versa. doing so would imbalnce that character for his level. same goes for the Fighter/"Rogue variant" combo. I'd allow the rogue bonus feats to stack with the fighter bonus feats. they'd be drawn from the same pool. BUT in this instance (where they normally don't stack and I've house ruled otherwise) if this character gained a level and he wanted to pick up a new feat (say a fighter bonus feat) he wouldn't be able to use a rogue bonus feat to qualify for it. meaning that he can't stack up a bunch of feats from both sides of the tree and get the feat earlier than would be normal for a non gestalt level 10 character. feats gained from the normal process (ie: one every 3 levels) can be used by both classes to qualify. this rule also applys to the rogue/ninja variant for SA. at level 10 this character would SA as a level 20 rogue. clearly broken. so, this character would have to track the rogue SA and Ninja sudden strike seperatly, but they can only apply one of the abilities at a time. this character wouldn't be able to lump this ability together to deal a total of +20d6 damage. he'd have to use wich ever was better at the moment to a max of what a non gesltalt character would be able to do at the same level. fighter/pshycic war. they would combine feats, but again same rules for the above fighter/rogue variant. you wouldn't be able to pick up a fighter bonus feat using a feat gained from the physcic war side of the tree. to do so would mean you'd get the feat at a MUCH lower level than inteded for that feat. and again this would upset game balance and create a broken character. so with regards to power output and damage output a character can't stack abilities from xyz classes to achieve a power level above what a normal character of his level could do. so a fighter/paladin can't ahve more damage output by stacking smite evil and specialisation than either a normal multiclasses fighter paladin or a pure fighter or a pure paladin. using the same gear and etc. this rule also applies to prestige classes. I would NEVER allow a character to qualify for a prestige class at a lower level than what a normal character could qualify for it as. so if it had a +5 BAB req. AND 2nd level arcane casting ability as another req. the character would have to be around 8th level (5th level ftr/3rd level wiz), unless his race grants him an ability to cast a second level arcane spell and that would qualify him for that part. so he'd have to have just BAB +5 and that owuld mean level 5. just like if he was pure fighter with this race that granted him a second level spell as a SLA, he'd qualify at 5th level. As far as I can see this variant was intended to allow a character to have more options in combat per day than normal, but they are still limited to that 1 round 1 action. If a player uses this variant to min-max his character and optimize it for things like great damage output or early PRC qualification than would be normal if the game wasn't gestalt. I tell the character no. and for game balance he would have to wait until a non gestalt character can equal his damage output, qualify for that feat, or qualify for that prc. It seems pretty simple to me. *shrugs* EDIT: btw on things stacking. I also wouldn't allow a theruge character to stack CL above his Character level. so if i had a wiz/clr player, he's still have to be level 6 (unless he uses normal min-max for a non gestalt character to qualify early), and if at level 4 he decided to be theruge/clr he'd only be CL 4 for wizard (since that would progress due to wiz not leveling up - just like nongesalt characters) and his clr CL would remain level4 (just like a 4th level cleric.) EDIT2: you'd be surprised at how much I allow in my campaigns as long as my players aren't trying to min-max themselves and using PC vs DM thinking. I seriosuly try to accomodate every one's character and balance the game so every one will have fun at the table. (i'm not implying you don't do that btw ^_^)
Derrick 12-08-06, 01:19 AM	The real way to look at it is at the feats themselves. I think the real way is to have a consistent approach. :) Fighter Bonus Feat - These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. Wizard Bonus Feat - she can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or Spell Mastery. Psychic Warrior - These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats or psionic feats. - A psychic warrior cannot choose feats that specifically require levels in the fighter class unless he is a multiclass character with the requisite levels in the fighter class. Each of these class features are called Bonus Feat, but each has a different description of where the feat can be drawn from. Thus a Fighter/Wizard gets all 15 bonus feats from his two classes, a Psychic Warrior/Wizard gets all 12 of his bonus feats, and a Fighter/Psyshic Warrior gets all 19 of his bonus feats. But a Fighter/Rogue, using the feat rogue variant, does not get 22 bonus feats, since the the feat Rogue's feats are identical in progression and description to the Fighters. So, if I understand this properly, your priniciple is that Gestalt characters should be allowed to freely combine class features that do not share an identical progression and description. That's pretty wild. It suggests that you're fine with letting characters Gestalt Wizard/(less-than-full-spellcasting-progression Prestige Class) and pick up a Caster Level in excess of their Character Level. (After all, the progression and description of these abilities are not identical.) On the subject of Rogue/Ninja, Sudden Strike counts as sneak attack for prerequisites, and therefore should also count as Sneak Attack for Gestalt. Thus eliminating the guy who sneaks up and gets 40d6 dice per attack. This doesn't follow from the principle you've given above. Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike do not share description, therefore, they should be able to be combined. However, I think you're putting forward a new principle here, namely: Gestalt characters may freely combine class features provided that they do not share identity for the purposes of prerequisites. It's somewhat more conservative than the UA rule, but you should bear in mind that it excludes combining "Bonus Feat" from more than one character class. (If that's inobvious, consider a hypothetical Prestige Class with the prerequisite, "Bonus Feat class feature". Would you let Wiz5 qualify? Ftr1? Mnk1? They all have that feature, after all.)
Derrick 12-08-06, 01:41 AM	well I work it this way. for example purposes lets use level 10 gestalt characters vs 2 level 10 normal characters (one from each side of the gestalt tree), IE: 10 ftr/wiz vs 10 ftr and 10 wiz a level 10 sor/wiz doesn't combine CL, why? because they'd be CL 20 at level 10. clearly broken. they would track spells/day speratly (though both cast arcane spells) and this character would have sor spells known and a wizards spell book. these again would be tracked differently. this character obviously couldn't use a sor spell known and put it in a wiz spell slot and vice versa. doing so would imbalnce that character for his level. There's absolutely no reason for thinking that Sorceror/Wizard gestalts would combine their Caster Level. It would be better to talk about Red Wizard/Wizard. Even then, it seems to be excluded because the Red Wizard grants spellcasting "as if" it was a level of Wizard, and standard Gestalt rules prohibit this sort of combination. same goes for the Fighter/"Rogue variant" combo. I'd allow the rogue bonus feats to stack with the fighter bonus feats. they'd be drawn from the same pool. BUT in this instance (where they normally don't stack and I've house ruled otherwise) if this character gained a level and he wanted to pick up a new feat (say a fighter bonus feat) he wouldn't be able to use a rogue bonus feat to qualify for it. meaning that he can't stack up a bunch of feats from both sides of the tree and get the feat earlier than would be normal for a non gestalt level 10 character. feats gained from the normal process (ie: one every 3 levels) can be used by both classes to qualify. OK. Let's say I'm playing a Fighter/Rogue* in your game. I've chosen Expertise as a Fighter feat, and Dodge as a Rogue feat. Can I use Expertise for +2AC, and Dodge for an additional +1AC against a particular opponent? this would upset game balance and create a broken character. What do you mean by "balance"? I know people like to throw it around, but I don't think it has any clear, objective meaning. (Caveat: In D&D parlance, Balance does have a clear, objective meaning, but I don't think that's really what's being invoked here. :)) so with regards to power output and damage output a character can't stack abilities from xyz classes to achieve a power level above what a normal character of his level could do. so a fighter/paladin can't ahve more damage output by stacking smite evil and specialisation than either a normal multiclasses fighter paladin or a pure fighter or a pure paladin. using the same gear and etc. OK. What if I'm playing a Fighter/Sorceror, cast Mage Armor on myself and use the Dodge feat (gained from my Fighter Bonus Feat class feature). Do I get to stack them for +5AC? I'm guessing not, because a single-class character wouldn't be able to do that. As far as I can see this variant was intended to allow a character to have more options in combat per day than normal, but they are still limited to that 1 round 1 action. If a player uses this variant to min-max his character and optimize it for things like great damage output or early PRC qualification than would be normal if the game wasn't gestalt. I tell the character no. and for game balance he would have to wait until a non gestalt character can equal his damage output, qualify for that feat, or qualify for that prc. With the exception of prestige class qualification, those measures are ad hoc. There's no principled way of making sense of them. If you go to the CO board, you'll find builds that far outpace the Fighter/Paladin's combination of Smite Evil and Weapon Specialization. Does that mean it's OK to combine these abilities again, or is the limit based on what can be done by either of the component classes or a multi-class character using only those classes? It seems pretty simple to me. *shrugs* That's because your rule is essentially, "What I say, goes." Of course you're going to say it's simple! But to me, it's arbitrary and inconsistent. I can't run my game by the same rule that you run yours, unless I have you standing over my shoulder telling me what to do. EDIT: btw on things stacking. I also wouldn't allow a theruge character to stack CL above his Character level. so if i had a wiz/clr player, he's still have to be level 6 (unless he uses normal min-max for a non gestalt character to qualify early), and if at level 4 he decided to be theruge/clr he'd only be CL 4 for wizard (since that would progress due to wiz not leveling up - just like nongesalt characters) and his clr CL would remain level4 (just like a 4th level cleric.) What? Mystic Theurge isn't available in Gestalt according to the UA. EDIT2: you'd be surprised at how much I allow in my campaigns as long as my players aren't trying to min-max themselves and using PC vs DM thinking. I seriosuly try to accomodate every one's character and balance the game so every one will have fun at the table. (i'm not implying you don't do that btw ^_^) I'm sure that you do. However, I don't think that the way you run your game is accessible to anyone else, and as such, is irrelevant to discussions on what other DMs should do.
Vaelan 12-08-06, 03:46 AM	Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class. There is ground to rule either way. You could say that they are the same feature because they share the same name or you could say that they don't share the same feature because the features are not identical. However, if you rule that they are the same feature, you should probably rule that a gestalt Wizard/Fighter could spend their Fighter bonus feats on anything that a Fighter or Wizard normally could spend their bonus feats on.
User5127 12-08-06, 10:40 AM	like I said, if a non geslatled charactrer can do the same effect through either multiclassing (with the classes you are) or as a straight class. then sure I'd let it stack. and UA "suggests" you don't allow mystic theruge. it doesn't explicitly say no to it. It merely mentions the fact that that prc would upset character balance. I don't mind things like stacking mage armor with dodge bonuses. but when a character stacks so many things from this that they essentially have a level 20 damage output and defense I see something wrong with it. and a fighter rogue could do the same thing multiclassed, so those feats would stack if you wanted to stack them. This is a nice variant but players f*ck it up by min-maxing their characters and trying to stack xyz abilities so that they become uber characters. gestalt wasn't meant to make you uber, just to give your characters more options in combat and out of combat. (when I say uber I'm talking about extremes like char-op and characters like pun pun.) and bringing up char op as a counter arguement is kind of silly, when you consider that an pun pun kicks Lord Ao's ass and he wasn't even level 20 when he was able to do that.
PhaedrusXY 12-08-06, 11:41 AM	I have nothing to add to this conversation, I am only here because this topic has the best name I've ever seen in the House Rules forum and I felt left out not posting in it.Seconded! You could even leave out the (in the House Rules forum) part, IMO, and just say "Best Title EVAR"! :D
Judging Eagle 12-08-06, 04:39 PM	and UA "suggests" you don't allow mystic theruge. it doesn't explicitly say no to it. It merely mentions the fact that that prc would upset character balance. Spoken like someone who has truly played a Mystice Theurge 'legally' in a normal game and has obviously seen the implications of an MT build in a gestalt build? I'm guessing not; the worst that could possibly happen is something like.... Ugh, I don't even want to try it, the MT class is so stupidly horrible that trying to make it viable even in a gestalt setting is pointless. Unless you want to go cleric 3/ Something X//wizard 3/MT 10 and want to have absoultely no Turning or Rebuking abilities on your cleric side; there's really no point. The concept of a Mystic Theurge is a cool one, but there's no way to properly implement it. ...once again I solve my own problems. -_-; unless you give the MT 1 spell per day of a spell level equal to it's MT level Plus the classes that are having their Spellcasting increassed via the MT class. That way MTs can cast at least 1 spell per day of spells that are appropriate for their level. At least that way the MT isn't bringing as much Magic to the table as a fellow partymembers sidekick wizard or cleric. but when a character stacks so many things from this that they essentially have a level 20 damage output and defense I see something wrong with it. You also mentioned Taking away sudden strike/sneak attack dice from a character who is Roue 20/Ninja 20. Hopefully you realize how sudden strike dice work, right? Under the current 'rules' the rogue is actually a better ninja than the ninja itself. Better skills per level, more options to achieve more, better weapons options, better armour options; the list goes on and on. The list ends with the fact that the sudden strike dice only work if the ninja is invisible (so..., the ninja can 'reliably' SS a number of Rounds per day equal to Ninja Level/2 + Wis mod; or, say... 10 rounds + Wisdom mod at lvl 20; pre day). The rogue can sneak attack pretty much anytime he flanks; and there are dozens of ways for characters to set up monsters so that they are flanked. The large spike-chain fighter that overruns past enemies to later whirlwind leaves lots of people open for a spring attack sneak-attack; the ninja can't, he has to use one of his Ki abilities per day to do the same. The rogue could SA every round of every fight, while the ninja has to conserve his Ki uses per day for other abilities and will probably never spend his last Ki point either (it gives +2 to all saves). In any case, the Rog/Nin is extremely fragile for gestalt play; the archivist/rogue or the druid/ninja or the cleric/ninja are much more dangerous, since they are much more robust in terms of HP, saves and actual abilties that don't overlap and instead synergize (Ex. Druid or Cleric Wis to casting; also granting AC and Ki points thanks to Ninja; combined with say Insightful Strike or Zen archery makes for a dangerous combination). If the rog/ninja can get lucky and kill things fast enough, then the rest of the party may forgive his horrible saves, bad BaB or HP. Usually, he'll only use his Rogue damage dice, and ninja if he's lucky (goes 1st), or gets buffed w/ Greater Invis, or can make good enough hide checks in combat that he or she can use the Sniping rules detailed in the Hide skill in the PHB.
enlightened 12-08-06, 06:19 PM	The description of Sudden Strike in the complete adventurer doesn't mention anything about having to be invisible to use it. It just says that the target must be in a position in which they are denied their dexterity bonus to AC. I've never seen a ninja in play but I imagine that most of the Sudden Strikes would be taking place in the surprise round or after having feinted.
ff6shadow 12-09-06, 11:16 AM	First: User5127 First, even if the PC's get into prestige classes earlier, it isn't a huge gain. Anyone who hyper specializaes their character is a Gestalt game, focusing solely on one aspect of a character, is asking to get killed. Take the Rogue/Ninja example. Sure, he suprises you, or goes invisibile, then deals out a whole lot of damage. Assuming he can hit with his middle BAB. Then he only has d6 HD, and 1 good save. Since CR's are up in every encounter as the balancing factor of gestalt, every opponent has more HP than normal, more AC than normal, and hits harder than normal. Instead of using his second class the enhance himself, such as taking Fighter for better HP, BAB, and 1 more save, or wizard for spellcasting options, he can only do one thing. Sneak Attack!. Oh wait, this guy has fortification armor. Basically, instead of a well rounded character, this poor player has a rogue with twice the usual sneak attack, half of it only usable if the opponent is denied Dex to AC, if the DM lets the to abilities stack. Next, stacking feats to access feat chains quicker isn't really a big deal, since most of the cap feats on feat chains are available by level 6 anyway, their isn't really any harm in letting various bonus feats combine to qualify for them. Take Whirlwind Attack for example. Anybody can have this feat at level 5 if they so choose. Fighter 4/Psychic Warrior 1 is enough to get it. Spring Attack is available at level 4, Spirited Charge is available at level 2, Many Shot at level 6, and Shot on the Run is available at level 4. Of the capstone feats, only Improved Precise Shot, Greater Weapon Specialization, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting are unavailable at or before level 6 and using to feat progressing classes cannot accelerate anyone into these feats. Thats what prerequisites do. Seperating the feat lists for prerequisites purposes does little to limit a character trying to become stronger, since feats aren't where the real power in the game is at, that is reserved to spellcasting and class abilities. All the limitation on selecting feats does is increase bookkeeping. Gestalt characters, by their nature are going to have higher damage outputs than non-gestalt characters. Even a player trying to diversify and get as many options as reasonably possible are going to get this inevitable power creep. Limiting them to the limits of a non-gestalt character, defeats the purpose of using the variant, which is to diversify and increase a characters options and to enhances a characters durability. Enhancing a characters durability is most often acheived by boosting saves, and enhancing offense. In D&D, the best offense truyl is the best defense. Second: Derrick It isn't that the bonus feats progressions are accruing at different rates. Its that each of the various bonus feats grant a different selection of feats. Fighter Bonus Feat - From the fighter bonus feat list. Psychic Warrior Bonus Feat - Fighter bonus feat list and any psionic feat. Additionally, cannot select fighter specific feats. Wizard Bonus Feat - Any Item creation, Metamagic, or Spell Mastery. Variant Rogue Bonus Feat - From the fighter bonus feat list. Each is granting a feat from a different list, except the rogue variant, which I mentioned as not stacking with the fighter itself. As to the caster progression. A prestige class that gives you a +1 spellcaster level, when applied to your wizard class, is giving you the same benefit as taking a level of wizard. The progression may be different, but +1 spellcasting, from wizard or a prestige class applied to your wizard class, are identical to each other. Thus they do not stack. As to Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike; Although Sudden Strike is not identically named to Sneak Attack, if I recall correctly, Sudden Strike is considered identical to Sneak Attack for the purpose of qualifying for prestige classes and feats. However, I did overstep on this one. While it should count as Sneak Attack for Gestalt, it does not by the rules, so they would stack. Third, Enlightened: While the description doesn't mention needing to be invisible, outside of the suprise round, the easiest and most time efficient way for a Ninja to deny his opponents their Dex bonus to AC is to become invisible. Which tends to become the Ninja's primary stick. I become Invisible and attack.
Judging Eagle 12-09-06, 12:56 PM	The description of Sudden Strike in the complete adventurer doesn't mention anything about having to be invisible to use it. It just says that the target must be in a position in which they are denied their dexterity bonus to AC. I've never seen a ninja in play but I imagine that most of the Sudden Strikes would be taking place in the surprise round or after having feinted. Except that catching people flat-footed is a horrible method and it's... once a battle. In order to 'Feint' an enemy the ninja would have to invest skill points into Bluff. In doing so they would be setting on fire the Ninja's lower base skill points per level. The fact that the Ninja has to use other methods to 'do his thing' is stupid beyond any excuse. Why? Because the average gamer is stuck with a worthless character. Until his powergamer friend shows him a trick where he can fire 4-5 Sudden Strikes at 60 feet away per round. So, at it's core, the class favors powergamers and isn't straightforward enough out of the box. It's like saying the core fighter only gets his BaB when in melee; or the core cleric can only heal, turn and swing heavy maces. Actually; saying that the ninja can use his sudden strike damage with any type of reliability that a rogue can use their sneak attack is like saying that "a 20th level core fighter has a 50% chance of soloing a Balor; it's ability to use Blasphemy at will notwithstanding." They're the fallacies of no character classes being playtested properly. The fighter wasn't tested past level 11 (the -10/-15 BaB drop off for 3rd and 4th attacks is a good demonstration of this; BaB should be max for the 1st attack and only -5 to each bonus attack). The Ninja was never playtested at all past level 5. If Sudden Strike was to be as limited as it is now, it should advance Sudden Strike dice by +2d6 per level of progression, perhaps even +3d6 per odd level. SS is really that hard to use properly unless you really powergame it. In the last adventure we were in, the multiclassed rogue snuck attack more often simply b/c he could flank; the ninja 4/rogue 1/spelltheif 1; ended up multiclassing so that he would actually have damage dice that he could rely on. The only truly reliable meethod that I've seen for a ninja to "do his thing" (that is, actually use his Sudden Strike more than ... 6-8 times a day at level 6) is to be invisible at all times or abuse magical crafting in order to have really high hide checks so that he can 'try' to snipe (sniping has.... a -20 to your hide check, but you can snipe lots of times per round). The solution now is for the ninja to provide the GP/XP required to create scrolls of reater invis for my Archivist to scribe and cast for him. The funny thing is that for the longest time the ninja character in our game has been the shoddiest damage dealer. When we start up the game again, he'll outdamage nearly anyone in the party (getting 4 (or 5 w/ Haste attacks that deal 1d8 + 3 +5d6 damage each, so 9 to 41 damage per attack meaning a damage output of 36( or 45) to 164 (or 205), averaging either 100 or 125 damage a round; at level 7; getting even Rapid Shot will increase the average damage an other 25 points to 125 or 150 w/ Haste). The thing is, to achieve the above, a lot of multiclassing had to be done (Ninja 4/Rogue 1/Spell Thief 1/Targeteer 1(will be Targeteer 2 next lvl)), the Crossbow Sniper feat (PHBII)had to be taken and a +1 Crossbow of Reloading(MiniHB) had to be purchased. All to use sudden strike more than.... 6 times per day. The silent, invisible, ninja that kills whole rooms full of people concept is acheived though. [I'll have to edit this, but I've got a potluck to go to and a soup to cook; later
Kiirdon_of_Aundair 12-16-06, 04:19 AM	In the normal rules, you could take a single level in rogue, ninja, Lurk, warlock, spellthief, assassin etc. with the feats: Guerilla Scout, Combat Exp. Imp Feint you have a massive damage output, but you can't hit. Now imagine in Gestalt combining all that with Fighter and a Greatsword Base at 6th : Fort+5, Refl+10, Will + 4, Ba +6, 37 hp, 8d6 dmg Good Ac etc
mkill 12-16-06, 05:45 AM	I noticed, tonight, that when you get the "Bonus Feat" class ability from more than one source while Gestalting, you ignore the class that gives you the feats more slowly. So, Fighter/Wizard gestalts don't get the bonus Wizard feats at 5, 10, 15 & 20 (they do get Scribe Scroll at 1st, at least), Fighter/Monk gestalts don't get the bonus Monk feats at 1, 2 & 6, etc. This doesn't really matter, but it does further the impression that D&D is somewhat cruel to the Fighter. :raincloud The rules state: "Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class." ??? Sorry, but I think you blandly misread that. The passage basicly says that a gestalt rogue / barbarian gains Improved Uncanny dodge when one of his classes gains it, not when he has Uncanny dodge from both classes. Why would that apply to bonus feats? Wizards and fighters could never gain the same abilities with their bonus feats, as they have completely different lists. Also, it makes no sense from pure game design point of view, as it would nerf classes with bonus feats while leaving classes without them at their power level, for no apparent reason. So: If something seems wrong, maybe you just didn't get it right.
Derrick 12-16-06, 01:22 PM	The rules state: "Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class." ??? Sorry, but I think you blandly misread that. The passage basicly says that a gestalt rogue / barbarian gains Improved Uncanny dodge when one of his classes gains it, not when he has Uncanny dodge from both classes. I agree with your reading and did when I wrote the post to which you replied. Why would that apply to bonus feats? Wizards and fighters could never gain the same abilities with their bonus feats, as they have completely different lists. At best, this argument moves the area of concern to Fighter/Monk gestalt characters, as the Monk's choice of bonus feats is a subset of the Fighter's choice. However, you've made an error of kind in your argument. The passage you quoted does not refer to "abilities". It refers to "class features". The class feature at stake is "Bonus Feat". If a Prestige Class had "Bonus Feat class feature" as a prerequisite, then Fighters, Monks and 5th-level (or higher) Wizards would all meet that prerequisite. So, why would we say that their Bonus Feat class feature is not "shared"? If we are led to say that class feature is shared, then the RAW tells us that it accrues "at the rate of the faster class". Also, it makes no sense from pure game design point of view, as it would nerf classes with bonus feats while leaving classes without them at their power level, for no apparent reason. This is a good argument in terms of norms, and I do agree with you that D&D shouldn't do that. However, in the thread-starting post, I'm only describing what the Rules are, not what they ought to be. So: If something seems wrong, maybe you just didn't get it right. Interesting principle. Did you apply it when something seemed wrong in my original, or is it just a practice that you'd like others to adopt?