I like the paragon classes a lot, but... [Archive] - Wizards Community

I like the paragon classes a lot, but... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sonofapreacherman
03-15-04, 04:01 AM The thing that bothers me about the paragon classes are the spells per day. You can start a paragon class at 1st level, but in order to benefit from the spells per day, you need to have previously taken levels in a spellcasting class.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Why can't the paragon simply choose a spellcasting class (or follow the one that is stipulated) strictly for the purpose of spellcasting without taking a level in that class first?

It's not like a half-orc paragon has to take a level of barbarian to use their rage 1/day ability. Why then should a paragon take levels of a spellcasting class before gaining spells per day? It's a double standard.
Pystian
03-15-04, 05:42 AM True dat.

I´m going to suggest the suggested implication implied by you to my group.
Thelon Fairblade
03-15-04, 08:43 AM SoaP! You still exist! Wow....:D

On topic.... Yes, spell-casting paragons require that you hav levels in another class. But, the spellcasting paragons also tend to be just a little bit better than the non-spellcasters.

For example, the Elf Paragon gets d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, improved elfsight, another +2 on enchantment saves, and a free Weapon Focus. Oh yeah, *and* 2/3 wizard spellcasting. Elf 1, Wiz 1, Elf 2, Elf 3, Wiz 2+.... All of these abilities are of great use to the Elven Wizard (an iconic archetype).

Dwarf Paragon, on the other hand, gets some Craft skills and improved Stonecunning.... generic minor usefulness, but applicable to any class (not just the iconic Dwarven Fighter).
Naga_Slayer
03-15-04, 10:45 AM I liked the Giant Paragon from Diamond throne. that actually gave me the idea to alter the DD slightly to be a Mojh paragon class. Now, I can waste 16 levels on racial classes: Mojh 3/Mojh Paragon (Dragon Disciple)10/Half Dragon Paragon 3. Wothless character? Oh yeah *thumbs up* :D
Naga_Slayer
03-15-04, 10:49 AM And yes, I realize this is Unearthed Arcana, not Arcana Unearthed. I just was bringing this little tid-bit up for conversations sake.
Thannin
03-15-04, 12:16 PM I actually have a gestalt character build that I like using paragons.
Race: half elf
class class lvl
wizard half elf paragon 1
wizard half elf paragon 2
wizard half elf paragon 3
wizard elf paragon 1
wizard elf paragon 2
wizard elf paragon 3
wizard elemental savant 1
wizard elemental savant 2
wizard elemental savant 3
wizard elemental savant 4
so like at level 10 you could be half elf paragon 3/elf paragon 3/elemental savant 4/wizard 10. Caster level 17, Int 30+
Reason being gestalt characters advance multiple classes at a time. However, as a gestalt character it specify's no multi base class p classes like mystic theurge. But it says nothing about prestige classes that add to a spellcasting ability. It says you keep track of spells per day seperately, but however, you get all class features AS NORMAL. Class features include elemental savant and paragon spell casting increasement.
Sonofapreacherman
03-15-04, 03:12 PM Originally posted by Thelon Fairblade
SoaP! You still exist! Wow.... :DI'm still around, just manning my own web site and message boards these days. Click here (http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/the_main_page.htm) or on the link in my signature. It will lead you to the most revised versions of the invisible blade and other prestige classes, not to mention my campaign rules.

Originally posted by Thelon Fairblade
On topic.... Yes, spell-casting paragons require that you have levels in another class. But, the spellcasting paragons also tend to be just a little bit better than the non-spellcasters.

For example, the Elf Paragon gets d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, improved elfsight, another +2 on enchantment saves, and a free Weapon Focus. Oh yeah, *and* 2/3 wizard spellcasting. Elf 1, Wiz 1, Elf 2, Elf 3, Wiz 2+.... All of these abilities are of great use to the Elven Wizard (an iconic archetype).True, but the elf paragon (for instance) doesn't get a wizard familiar or the Scribe Scroll feat and only learns 2 levels of wizard spellcasting over 3 levels (as you just said). These factors already take into account any advantages (in other areas) that elven paragons enjoy. Plus the good times only last 3 levels. That is the primary check and balance.

Originally posted by Thelon Fairblade
Dwarf Paragon, on the other hand, gets some Craft skills and improved Stonecunning.... generic minor usefulness, but applicable to any class (not just the iconic Dwarven Fighter). But you'll notice that dwarf paragons get a d10 hit dice and fighter base attack bonuses. That is the trade off. By comparison, elf paragons get wizard base attack bonuses.

The spells per day levels are an integral part of what balance the spellcasting paragons. They shouldn't lose out on those abilities if they haven't previously taken levels in a spellcasting class. It should be "built in". It's not like a dwarf has to take levels as a fighter to enjoy *all* the benefits of their paragon class, but elves do have to take levels as a wizard in order to do the same. That's the double standard I'm talking about.
Millennium
03-16-04, 11:22 AM It makes total sense to me. Unless you've taken the time to learn magic -a significant effort, signified by taking a level in a spellcasting class- how could you get any better at it? You can study spells all you want, but if you don't know how to use them then it doesn't matter.

Further, learning magic doesn't work backward in time. If you haven't taken the time to learn magic when you get a class that might otherwise grant a benefit, you can't go back later and say that you actually were studying magic at the time.
Sonofapreacherman
03-16-04, 02:23 PM Originally posted by Millennium
It makes total sense to me. Unless you've taken the time to learn magic -a significant effort, signified by taking a level in a spellcasting class- how could you get any better at it? You can study spells all you want, but if you don't know how to use them then it doesn't matter.Then you have to make the same argument for every other paragon class. The half-orc paragon who is suddenly able to rage once per day. If he's not a barbarian yet, how did he do it? The dwarf who is suddenly able to use all weapons and wear all armor types. If he's not a fighter yet, where did all those proficiencies suddenly materialize from?

The thing about these paragon classes is that their listed abilities come naturally to those races. That's the point. The wizard is a favored class for elves, the bard for gnomes, the cleric for female drow (etc.). That's why those spellcasting levels should be "built in" to their paragon levels. Not based on existing classes.

Originally posted by Millennium
Further, learning magic doesn't work backward in time. If you haven't taken the time to learn magic when you get a class that might otherwise grant a benefit, you can't go back later and say that you actually were studying magic at the time. And yet that is usually what happens when a multiclassing character picks up a spellcasting class after 1st level. The rule mechanics allow for it. The rationality, however, is left to individual gamers. It's always been that way, and the rules make it possible. That said, a good dungeon master will always need a previously established history or logical reason.
Althor Enchantor
03-17-04, 09:09 AM I just don't see why any sorcerer in his right mind wouldn't play a Human Paragon. Extra feat, check. Choice of class skills, check. Extra skill points to throw into Knowledge skills for PrCing, check. Choice of one skill to be a permanent class skill, be it Diplomacy, Intimidate, or UMD, check. Bigger HD, check. Only lose one level of casting, check. +2 Charisma, checkity check check CHECK!
Thelon Fairblade
03-17-04, 10:06 AM Good point, SoaP.

So, might the spellcasting paragons be changed from

"This ability provides no benefit if the character does not have the affected class."

to

"Treat the paragon as a spellcaster of the appropriate 'virtual' level if he has no levels in the class. Upon taking a level of the class, the paragon viritual levels return to the normal mechanic."

But that seems a bit more effective than the half-orc's 1/day rage.

(BTW, the Elf paragon's BAB is cleric, not wizard...)
adiaven
03-17-04, 11:10 AM Originally posted by Althor Enchantor
I just don't see why any sorcerer in his right mind wouldn't play a Human Paragon. Extra feat, check. Choice of class skills, check. Extra skill points to throw into Knowledge skills for PrCing, check. Choice of one skill to be a permanent class skill, be it Diplomacy, Intimidate, or UMD, check. Bigger HD, check. Only lose one level of casting, check. +2 Charisma, checkity check check CHECK!

Loss of spellcasting level.. check

that is the reason right there. When all you do is spell casting, delaying your progression hurts..
Adrez Nesnsid
03-17-04, 03:37 PM A simple fix to the caster level increase dilemma is to just houserule that the spellcasting bonuses come into play retroactively whenever the character picks up the appropriate spellcasting class (i.e. just rule that they get the increased caster level from the paragon class even if they took the paragon class first)
Thelon Fairblade
03-17-04, 08:00 PM That's pretty much what I was going to post. Re-reading the ability description, it says "these levels add to the characters levels in [the appropriate class] for determing [spell stuff]", and "If the character has no levels in [the appropriate class], this has no effect."

*Not* "This ability is lost".

So the levels lay "dormant" until the character acquires training (i.e. the base class level) to utilize the insights being such a paragon grants.

For example the Half-dragon paragon's Sorcerous Blood (add paragon levels to caster level) has no effect if you have no sorcerer levels... but as soon as you do, the bonus kicks in.

Other topic:
No paragon class has less than d6 HD, nor less than 3/4 BAB. But several paragon classes aren't that stellar. Even the half-dragon only gains a mighty +1 to natural armor for that second level (the 3rd level ability for using breath weapon 3/day *does* make up for it though!).

The drow paragon, on the other hand, gives the spellcasting bonus at *1st* level, along with an additinoal daily use of all innate drow powers. Now *that's* a cherrypicking class if I ever saw one!
Sonofapreacherman
03-18-04, 12:37 AM I thought that was odd too Thelon ... almost like "errata" odd. Every other paragon class (that earns two levels of spellcasting) does so in the 2nd and 3rd levels. The drow is the only exception. I would bump that 1st level of spellcasting up to 2nd level for sure (just to discourage poaching).
Thelon Fairblade
03-18-04, 09:38 AM Maybe the designers figured the character had already "paid" 2 levels for the base drow race (SR, stat boosts, innate powers, etc.), sacrificing a *3rd* level should be a tangible bonus?
Sonofapreacherman
03-18-04, 12:12 PM Originally posted by Thelon Fairblade
Maybe the designers figured the character had already "paid" 2 levels for the base drow race (SR, stat boosts, innate powers, etc.), sacrificing a *3rd* level should be a tangible bonus? Fine. Make sense. :D
Archtyrant Terevoth
03-18-04, 12:23 PM There's no problem with allowing spellcasting without taking a level of wizard, however they can't actually do it legally in the rules because it would be too difficult to word properly.

Allowing a class to "start" progression in anything can lead to lots of compatibility problems later on, especially if someone wants to gain a level of Ur-Priest spellcasting progression for instance. You don't know what options will be open with future supplements and you certainly don't want to limit the spellcasting levels to one class, so it's better they left things as they did and let DMs decide what's reasonable, otherwise we'd have 50,000 paragon builds trying to cheese their way into PrC spellcasting progressions without the prereqs.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sonofapreacherman 03-15-04, 04:01 AM	The thing that bothers me about the paragon classes are the spells per day. You can start a paragon class at 1st level, but in order to benefit from the spells per day, you need to have previously taken levels in a spellcasting class. This doesn't make any sense to me. Why can't the paragon simply choose a spellcasting class (or follow the one that is stipulated) strictly for the purpose of spellcasting without taking a level in that class first? It's not like a half-orc paragon has to take a level of barbarian to use their rage 1/day ability. Why then should a paragon take levels of a spellcasting class before gaining spells per day? It's a double standard.
Pystian 03-15-04, 05:42 AM	True dat. I´m going to suggest the suggested implication implied by you to my group.
Thelon Fairblade 03-15-04, 08:43 AM	SoaP! You still exist! Wow....:D On topic.... Yes, spell-casting paragons require that you hav levels in another class. But, the spellcasting paragons also tend to be just a little bit better than the non-spellcasters. For example, the Elf Paragon gets d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, improved elfsight, another +2 on enchantment saves, and a free Weapon Focus. Oh yeah, and 2/3 wizard spellcasting. Elf 1, Wiz 1, Elf 2, Elf 3, Wiz 2+.... All of these abilities are of great use to the Elven Wizard (an iconic archetype). Dwarf Paragon, on the other hand, gets some Craft skills and improved Stonecunning.... generic minor usefulness, but applicable to any class (not just the iconic Dwarven Fighter).
Naga_Slayer 03-15-04, 10:45 AM	I liked the Giant Paragon from Diamond throne. that actually gave me the idea to alter the DD slightly to be a Mojh paragon class. Now, I can waste 16 levels on racial classes: Mojh 3/Mojh Paragon (Dragon Disciple)10/Half Dragon Paragon 3. Wothless character? Oh yeah thumbs up :D
Naga_Slayer 03-15-04, 10:49 AM	And yes, I realize this is Unearthed Arcana, not Arcana Unearthed. I just was bringing this little tid-bit up for conversations sake.
Thannin 03-15-04, 12:16 PM	I actually have a gestalt character build that I like using paragons. Race: half elf class class lvl wizard half elf paragon 1 wizard half elf paragon 2 wizard half elf paragon 3 wizard elf paragon 1 wizard elf paragon 2 wizard elf paragon 3 wizard elemental savant 1 wizard elemental savant 2 wizard elemental savant 3 wizard elemental savant 4 so like at level 10 you could be half elf paragon 3/elf paragon 3/elemental savant 4/wizard 10. Caster level 17, Int 30+ Reason being gestalt characters advance multiple classes at a time. However, as a gestalt character it specify's no multi base class p classes like mystic theurge. But it says nothing about prestige classes that add to a spellcasting ability. It says you keep track of spells per day seperately, but however, you get all class features AS NORMAL. Class features include elemental savant and paragon spell casting increasement.
Sonofapreacherman 03-15-04, 03:12 PM	Originally posted by Thelon Fairblade SoaP! You still exist! Wow.... :DI'm still around, just manning my own web site and message boards these days. Click here (http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/the_main_page.htm) or on the link in my signature. It will lead you to the most revised versions of the invisible blade and other prestige classes, not to mention my campaign rules. Originally posted by Thelon Fairblade On topic.... Yes, spell-casting paragons require that you have levels in another class. But, the spellcasting paragons also tend to be just a little bit better than the non-spellcasters. For example, the Elf Paragon gets d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, improved elfsight, another +2 on enchantment saves, and a free Weapon Focus. Oh yeah, and 2/3 wizard spellcasting. Elf 1, Wiz 1, Elf 2, Elf 3, Wiz 2+.... All of these abilities are of great use to the Elven Wizard (an iconic archetype).True, but the elf paragon (for instance) doesn't get a wizard familiar or the Scribe Scroll feat and only learns 2 levels of wizard spellcasting over 3 levels (as you just said). These factors already take into account any advantages (in other areas) that elven paragons enjoy. Plus the good times only last 3 levels. That is the primary check and balance. Originally posted by Thelon Fairblade Dwarf Paragon, on the other hand, gets some Craft skills and improved Stonecunning.... generic minor usefulness, but applicable to any class (not just the iconic Dwarven Fighter). But you'll notice that dwarf paragons get a d10 hit dice and fighter base attack bonuses. That is the trade off. By comparison, elf paragons get wizard base attack bonuses. The spells per day levels are an integral part of what balance the spellcasting paragons. They shouldn't lose out on those abilities if they haven't previously taken levels in a spellcasting class. It should be "built in". It's not like a dwarf has to take levels as a fighter to enjoy all the benefits of their paragon class, but elves do have to take levels as a wizard in order to do the same. That's the double standard I'm talking about.
Millennium 03-16-04, 11:22 AM	It makes total sense to me. Unless you've taken the time to learn magic -a significant effort, signified by taking a level in a spellcasting class- how could you get any better at it? You can study spells all you want, but if you don't know how to use them then it doesn't matter. Further, learning magic doesn't work backward in time. If you haven't taken the time to learn magic when you get a class that might otherwise grant a benefit, you can't go back later and say that you actually were studying magic at the time.
Sonofapreacherman 03-16-04, 02:23 PM	Originally posted by Millennium It makes total sense to me. Unless you've taken the time to learn magic -a significant effort, signified by taking a level in a spellcasting class- how could you get any better at it? You can study spells all you want, but if you don't know how to use them then it doesn't matter.Then you have to make the same argument for every other paragon class. The half-orc paragon who is suddenly able to rage once per day. If he's not a barbarian yet, how did he do it? The dwarf who is suddenly able to use all weapons and wear all armor types. If he's not a fighter yet, where did all those proficiencies suddenly materialize from? The thing about these paragon classes is that their listed abilities come naturally to those races. That's the point. The wizard is a favored class for elves, the bard for gnomes, the cleric for female drow (etc.). That's why those spellcasting levels should be "built in" to their paragon levels. Not based on existing classes. Originally posted by Millennium Further, learning magic doesn't work backward in time. If you haven't taken the time to learn magic when you get a class that might otherwise grant a benefit, you can't go back later and say that you actually were studying magic at the time. And yet that is usually what happens when a multiclassing character picks up a spellcasting class after 1st level. The rule mechanics allow for it. The rationality, however, is left to individual gamers. It's always been that way, and the rules make it possible. That said, a good dungeon master will always need a previously established history or logical reason.
Althor Enchantor 03-17-04, 09:09 AM	I just don't see why any sorcerer in his right mind wouldn't play a Human Paragon. Extra feat, check. Choice of class skills, check. Extra skill points to throw into Knowledge skills for PrCing, check. Choice of one skill to be a permanent class skill, be it Diplomacy, Intimidate, or UMD, check. Bigger HD, check. Only lose one level of casting, check. +2 Charisma, checkity check check CHECK!
Thelon Fairblade 03-17-04, 10:06 AM	Good point, SoaP. So, might the spellcasting paragons be changed from "This ability provides no benefit if the character does not have the affected class." to "Treat the paragon as a spellcaster of the appropriate 'virtual' level if he has no levels in the class. Upon taking a level of the class, the paragon viritual levels return to the normal mechanic." But that seems a bit more effective than the half-orc's 1/day rage. (BTW, the Elf paragon's BAB is cleric, not wizard...)
adiaven 03-17-04, 11:10 AM	Originally posted by Althor Enchantor I just don't see why any sorcerer in his right mind wouldn't play a Human Paragon. Extra feat, check. Choice of class skills, check. Extra skill points to throw into Knowledge skills for PrCing, check. Choice of one skill to be a permanent class skill, be it Diplomacy, Intimidate, or UMD, check. Bigger HD, check. Only lose one level of casting, check. +2 Charisma, checkity check check CHECK! Loss of spellcasting level.. check that is the reason right there. When all you do is spell casting, delaying your progression hurts..
Adrez Nesnsid 03-17-04, 03:37 PM	A simple fix to the caster level increase dilemma is to just houserule that the spellcasting bonuses come into play retroactively whenever the character picks up the appropriate spellcasting class (i.e. just rule that they get the increased caster level from the paragon class even if they took the paragon class first)
Thelon Fairblade 03-17-04, 08:00 PM	That's pretty much what I was going to post. Re-reading the ability description, it says "these levels add to the characters levels in [the appropriate class] for determing [spell stuff]", and "If the character has no levels in [the appropriate class], this has no effect." Not "This ability is lost". So the levels lay "dormant" until the character acquires training (i.e. the base class level) to utilize the insights being such a paragon grants. For example the Half-dragon paragon's Sorcerous Blood (add paragon levels to caster level) has no effect if you have no sorcerer levels... but as soon as you do, the bonus kicks in. Other topic: No paragon class has less than d6 HD, nor less than 3/4 BAB. But several paragon classes aren't that stellar. Even the half-dragon only gains a mighty +1 to natural armor for that second level (the 3rd level ability for using breath weapon 3/day does make up for it though!). The drow paragon, on the other hand, gives the spellcasting bonus at 1st level, along with an additinoal daily use of all innate drow powers. Now that's a cherrypicking class if I ever saw one!
Sonofapreacherman 03-18-04, 12:37 AM	I thought that was odd too Thelon ... almost like "errata" odd. Every other paragon class (that earns two levels of spellcasting) does so in the 2nd and 3rd levels. The drow is the only exception. I would bump that 1st level of spellcasting up to 2nd level for sure (just to discourage poaching).
Thelon Fairblade 03-18-04, 09:38 AM	Maybe the designers figured the character had already "paid" 2 levels for the base drow race (SR, stat boosts, innate powers, etc.), sacrificing a 3rd level should be a tangible bonus?
Sonofapreacherman 03-18-04, 12:12 PM	Originally posted by Thelon Fairblade Maybe the designers figured the character had already "paid" 2 levels for the base drow race (SR, stat boosts, innate powers, etc.), sacrificing a 3rd level should be a tangible bonus? Fine. Make sense. :D
Archtyrant Terevoth 03-18-04, 12:23 PM	There's no problem with allowing spellcasting without taking a level of wizard, however they can't actually do it legally in the rules because it would be too difficult to word properly. Allowing a class to "start" progression in anything can lead to lots of compatibility problems later on, especially if someone wants to gain a level of Ur-Priest spellcasting progression for instance. You don't know what options will be open with future supplements and you certainly don't want to limit the spellcasting levels to one class, so it's better they left things as they did and let DMs decide what's reasonable, otherwise we'd have 50,000 paragon builds trying to cheese their way into PrC spellcasting progressions without the prereqs.