Post/Author/DateTime	Post
starfire311 10-20-06, 09:11 AM	Something has always bugged me in the back of my mind about SA... it was the fact that SA should basically work like a critical, since they both work the same way, by getting a particularly good hit in on a vital area. It is always seemed to me that SA should work by augmenting criticals. I ahve no Idea if this is balanced or not, seems weak at low levels but super powerful at high levels. The idea is to replace SA progression with the following. each level gives +1 damage on crits each odd level gives +1 to confrim crits Level 3, 9, 15 gives +1 to threat range or crit multiplier, this is choosen when the ability is gained and stacks with Improved critical and Keen, and other abilities that stack with IC and keen. here is what I mean BTW at level 1 we get +1D6 damage replaced with +1 damage on a crit at level 20 we get +10D6 damage replaced with +20 damage on a crit, +10 to confirm crits, and +3 to threat range/multiplier. seems to me level 20 gets a boost while level 1 gets a nerf, since it would be easy to jsut about gaurantee that every hit would be a crit at level 20. If anyone has any suggestions or ideas about how to do this lemme know what you think.
calvinNhobbes 10-20-06, 09:20 AM	This has bothered me as well. I remember when "backstab" just doubled your damage (similar to the current critical hit). I have also tinkered with the idea of having it augment critical hits some how. Unfortunately I have not had the time to playtest anything significantly. I look forward to seeing what fruits this thread bears.
Jerks 10-20-06, 02:28 PM	Hmm, it definitely isn't overpowered. I think this is a step down in power because it relies on a good die roll (especially at first level), and it also favors builds that grab up keen rapiers above all other weapons. The nice thing now about sneak attack is that a player can pretty much reliably know when it's going to be successful or not. Your system takes some of this away. It does however have a nice internal consistency to it. I would recommend though that you can be a bit freer with the damage bonus than you have been. A +1 to damage on a crit is far less powerful than a +1d6 whenever you flank. Just as a +20 at 20th level isn't quite up to snuff with 10d6 (~35 pts on average). One quick fix to this might be to allow you bonus damage to be multiplied in with the critical hit (instead of being added after the fact). This would bring the damage potential more in line with existing Rogues and also give Rogues to vary their weapon selection a bit more. They still avoid 20/x2 weapons, but now there is more of a reason to look at the 20/x4 in addition to the 18-20/x2.
starfire311 10-20-06, 03:18 PM	Hmm, it definitely isn't overpowered. I think this is a step down in power because it relies on a good die roll (especially at first level), and it also favors builds that grab up keen rapiers above all other weapons. I agree here definatly, losing the +1d6 in exchange for the occasional +1 at 1sy level is a big nerf. Maybe it would be possible to front load it a bit more, or maybe change it to be a flat +1 damage instead of +1 on a crit... The nice thing now about sneak attack is that a player can pretty much reliably know when it's going to be successful or not. Your system takes some of this away. it does take some of it away, but at higher levels you will be pretty positive it will give you a good benefit, the problem is at low levels it will suck. It does however have a nice internal consistency to it. I would recommend though that you can be a bit freer with the damage bonus than you have been. A +1 to damage on a crit is far less powerful than a +1d6 whenever you flank. Just as a +20 at 20th level isn't quite up to snuff with 10d6 (~35 pts on average). well +20 damage on a crit, along with +10 to confirm and a +2 multiplier and +1 threat range on a keen rapier can be amazing... a 20th level rogue w/ keen rapier could be criting on a 14+ and doing x4 damage along with an extra +20 and almost always confirming with that +10 to confirm. One quick fix to this might be to allow you bonus damage to be multiplied in with the critical hit (instead of being added after the fact). This would bring the damage potential more in line with existing Rogues and also give Rogues to vary their weapon selection a bit more. They still avoid 20/x2 weapons, but now there is more of a reason to look at the 20/x4 in addition to the 18-20/x2. I had this idea also, but a rogue running around with a heavy pike/scythe just seems silly especially since they are non-proficient with it. I still think even if I multiplied the damage on a crit, rogues would still favor 2 weapons and high threat range weapons to get as many crits as possible, so maybe letting it get multiplied wont be to big a deal. But that would change the rogue above to be +60 damage on a crit, crit on 14+/x4 with a +10 to confirm.
starfire311 10-20-06, 03:22 PM	another rule I was thinking about coupling this with was my house rule for fortification... changing for to grant either a +4 or +5 bonus to AC vs confirming crits per plus(+) of the enhancement bonus... so heavy +5 would grant +20 or +25 to AC vs confirming crits.
Dex 10-21-06, 11:43 PM	Some ideas from a person who plays rogues regularly: What if you replaced it with a flat +3 damage/SA 'dice', but it is multiplied when/if you crit? An effects table like the ambush and sneak attack feats (you know the ones where you sacrifice dice for the extra effects) that you automatically get access to, but no bonus damage at all. Some kind of effects table, where, for example, the number of sneak attack dice is compared to the HD of the opponent: dice > opponent's HD - Death dice = opponent's HD - critical hit, roll to confirm dice 1-5 less than opponent's HD = hamstrung dice 6-10 less than oppoent's HD = bleeding? Or replace each die of SA with a pool of points (like 2 points/dice or something) where the rogue can draw from that pool to add to either attack roll or damage.
X-Codes 10-22-06, 12:31 AM	Rogues were given Sneak Attack instead of Backstab or some sort of critical hit ability so they could deal good, consistent damage in a fight instead of just dealing a massive burst of damage and then being near-worthless. Theres other feats that combine Sneak Attack and Critical Hits: most notably Telling Blow.
calvinNhobbes 10-22-06, 11:10 AM	Rogues were given Sneak Attack instead of Backstab or some sort of critical hit ability so they could deal good, consistent damage in a fight instead of just dealing a massive burst of damage and then being near-worthless. Theres other feats that combine Sneak Attack and Critical Hits: most notably Telling Blow. Yes, we realize this is the reason from a game design point of view. However, I think you also realize that this does not make sense at all from a flavor or realism stand point. The entire point of a "sneak attack" should be to disable your opponent in one blow. We are trying to develop a house rule that is as balanced as possible that relates sneak attack to critical hits. If you have ideas that help the thread we would all love to hear them. Telling us the thread is basically pointless is counter productive and rude.
trapspringer 10-22-06, 11:58 AM	Unless he is right... At any rate, the trick here, from what you just said, is to give the rogue some sort of one hit kill move that can only be executed in situations when a cartoon character would scream "sneak attack" before whacking the antagonist on the head with a giant mallet? You could set up a special roguish ability that turns any attack against a flat-footed opponent into a critical hit. Couple that with SF311's variant (with a little tweaking) and you should be good to go.
Szatany 10-22-06, 01:23 PM	another rule I was thinking about coupling this with was my house rule for fortification... changing for to grant either a +4 or +5 bonus to AC vs confirming crits per plus(+) of the enhancement bonus... so heavy +5 would grant +20 or +25 to AC vs confirming crits. It's a very good idea. But even +5 AC against critical confirmation seems too little for +1 bonus. I'd change it so +1 bonus grants DR 10/non-critical hit instead. Simpler and more effective.
calvinNhobbes 10-22-06, 07:33 PM	Unless he is right... At any rate, the trick here, from what you just said, is to give the rogue some sort of one hit kill move that can only be executed in situations when a cartoon character would scream "sneak attack" before whacking the antagonist on the head with a giant mallet? Your immature sarcasm is also pointless and not appreciated. Grow up please. I've been working on trying to set up a variation of the generic class system. I currently have feat tree called precision attack, improved precision attack, etc. The tree has heavy dex prereqs as well as a int prereq and BAB. Each feat along the tree increases your critical threat range when denying your opponent dex or flanking. I also have a more intricate feinting tree. The combination of the two makes for some very potent offense. But like I said I haven't really tested much. Edit: I've also been thinking of how this kind of game change would work with the wound/vitality point system. I think it might work very well in that situation.
X-Codes 10-22-06, 08:17 PM	Your immature sarcasm is also pointless and not appreciated. Grow up please. Ah, I get it now. You're just angsty. Ok, I don't take offense at your previous remark in that case. If you want a knockout blow type of ambush attack then maybe you should use a feat like this: Ambush Mastery Req.: Int 15+, Weapon Focus, Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike +4d6 Benefit: Once per round, when you make a sneak attack or sudden strike with a weapon you have Weapon Focus with against a flat-footed target (not one merely denied their dexterity bonus to AC), you can give up 4 sneak attack dice to incapacitate the target. Your opponent is entitled to a Fortitude Save (DC = Damage dealt) to negate the effect. If you deal lethal damage with the attack and your opponent fails his Fortitude save, he immediately falls to -1 HP (and dying) instead of your rolled damage unless he had fewer HP before. If you deal subdual damage with the attack, your opponent takes subdual damage equal to his current HP +1 instead of your rolled damage, and does not naturally recover any subdual damage for 1d4+2 hours. Tweak it to your heart's content.
calvinNhobbes 10-22-06, 08:53 PM	Ah, I get it now. You're just angsty. Ok, I don't take offense at your previous remark in that case. Sigh, more insults. Please just leave the thread and go watch pokemon or something. :rolleyes: If you want a knockout blow type of ambush attack then maybe you should use a feat like this: Ambush Mastery Req.: Int 15+, Weapon Focus, Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike +4d6 Benefit: Once per round, when you make a sneak attack or sudden strike with a weapon you have Weapon Focus with against a flat-footed target (not one merely denied their dexterity bonus to AC), you can give up 4 sneak attack dice to incapacitate the target. Your opponent is entitled to a Fortitude Save (DC = Damage dealt) to negate the effect. If you deal lethal damage with the attack and your opponent fails his Fortitude save, he immediately falls to -1 HP (and dying) instead of your rolled damage unless he had fewer HP before. If you deal subdual damage with the attack, your opponent takes subdual damage equal to his current HP +1 instead of your rolled damage, and does not naturally recover any subdual damage for 1d4+2 hours. Tweak it to your heart's content. Given that the feat does not relate sneak attack damage to critical hits, I would say the feat is irrelevant to the thread, but thanks for the effort anway.
Wayside 10-22-06, 09:03 PM	I fleshed out an almost entirely new game system with a new method of critical hits, new armor system, and a ton of other interfaced elements. Anyway, the relevance it has to this thread is part of the new critical hit system are wounds. If you score a critical hit, instead of doing multiples of damage, you do a wound. Wounds do things such as hampered movement, str or dex penalties, and just about any other condition you can think of. Long story short, all precision based damage (skirmish, sneak attack, sudden strike, etc..) deals a wound equal to half the listed damage. I don't feel like listing out the full system both because its fairly long and very original, but its definetely a way to go with critical hits and precision damage if you want to toy with the concept.
Szatany 10-22-06, 09:08 PM	I fleshed out an almost entirely new game system with a new method of critical hits, new armor system, and a ton of other interfaced elements. Anyway, the relevance it has to this thread is part of the new critical hit system are wounds. If you score a critical hit, instead of doing multiples of damage, you do a wound. Wounds do things such as hampered movement, str or dex penalties, and just about any other condition you can think of. Long story short, all precision based damage (skirmish, sneak attack, sudden strike, etc..) deals a wound equal to half the listed damage. I don't feel like listing out the full system both because its fairly long and very original, but its definetely a way to go with critical hits and precision damage if you want to toy with the concept. Is there any way to read your system? On related note, does you system only changes combat, or other things like, for example, races or spellcasting? So far I like what I read ;)
X-Codes 10-22-06, 10:38 PM	Sigh, more insults. Please just leave the thread and go watch pokemon or something. :rolleyes: Pokemon is trash, the cartoon and most of the games. I watch stuff like Bleach, Trinity Blood, Cowboy Bebop... nothing thats on right now. But my favorite stuff are movies like Pulp Fiction, Fight Club, The Illusionist, and other dark stuff like that. I also find it funny that the only thing you're doing in this thread is looking at how this would affect various other variant rules and making ad hominem attacks against people and basically ignoring their contributions. I've yet to see you actually add anything to the thread yourself, while I have already brought up two very simple options to address different aspects of yours and starfire's problems with the Sneak Attack system. Given that the feat does not relate sneak attack damage to critical hits, I would say the feat is irrelevant to the thread, but thanks for the effort anway. If you actually read trapspringer's post instead of just mocking it, you might know why I posted that feat. It's actually very closely related to the current Coup-de-Grace rules in the game, basically allowing a rogue to CDG any flat-footed opponent with a significantly lower save-or-die DC. People disrespect you because you ignore their efforts and insult them for no apparant reason. In my first post, the one where you called me "counter-productive and rude" was actually me trying to point out rules already in the game that give you what you want from this houserule. The next one you made was a failed assumption trapspringer was being sarcastic. He was being a little silly, to be sure, but he was actually also trying to help this thread. This most recent one where you called me immature completely ignored another option I gave, which is a very simple solution to this problem that Rogues can't do that "Here I am, now you die!" thing they did so well back in 2e and before. Maybe it would help you to know what I think Houserules should do. They really serve two purposes: 1) close glaring, game-breaking rules loopholes so that nobody can say "the rules don't say I can't," and 2) create new guidelines to govern things that the players arguably *should* be able to do yet, for some reason, can't. They should also be as inobtrusive as possible to advoid game balance issues.
trapspringer 10-23-06, 01:01 AM	Never mind, someone already addressed that. Thanks, man.
starfire311 10-23-06, 08:56 AM	Sigh, more insults. Please just leave the thread and go watch pokemon or something. :rolleyes: please let's be civilized, and my wife absolutly loves pokemon, she gives pikachu a big hug every year at Gen Con. I watch stuff like Bleach, Trinity Blood, Cowboy Bebop... yes she also enjoys other animated shows... she really liked samurai champloo, cowboy bebop, and berserk. How the heck did this become about my wife... :emp: I fleshed out an almost entirely new game system with a new method of critical hits, new armor system, and a ton of other interfaced elements. Anyway, the relevance it has to this thread is part of the new critical hit system are wounds. If you score a critical hit, instead of doing multiples of damage, you do a wound. Wounds do things such as hampered movement, str or dex penalties, and just about any other condition you can think of. Long story short, all precision based damage (skirmish, sneak attack, sudden strike, etc..) deals a wound equal to half the listed damage. I don't feel like listing out the full system both because its fairly long and very original, but its definetely a way to go with critical hits and precision damage if you want to toy with the concept. yeah I agree a WP system is the way to go, and that is generally what I play, but I wanted to create a 'better' SA system, for a more traditional game. It's a very good idea. But even +5 AC against critical confirmation seems too little for +1 bonus. I'd change it so +1 bonus grants DR 10/non-critical hit instead. Simpler and more effective. really, if you get a +5 to your AC vs criticals, that reduces your chance of being crited by about 25%. that seems adequate for a +1 armor enhancement. But I do like your Ideas and would like to subscribe to your news letter, the only problem I can think of is that DR 10/non-critical hit would be more effective vs a long sword 1D8 19-20/x2 than a battle axe 1D8 20/x3, (this may not be a problem rather a feature depending on how you look at it though) while the bonus to AC would be equally effective against both. Ambush Mastery Req.: Int 15+, Weapon Focus, Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike +4d6 Benefit: Once per round, when you make a sneak attack or sudden strike with a weapon you have Weapon Focus with against a flat-footed target (not one merely denied their dexterity bonus to AC), you can give up 4 sneak attack dice to incapacitate the target. Your opponent is entitled to a Fortitude Save (DC = Damage dealt) to negate the effect. If you deal lethal damage with the attack and your opponent fails his Fortitude save, he immediately falls to -1 HP (and dying) instead of your rolled damage unless he had fewer HP before. If you deal subdual damage with the attack, your opponent takes subdual damage equal to his current HP +1 instead of your rolled damage, and does not naturally recover any subdual damage for 1d4+2 hours. Interesting feat, it really does not apply to the idea of having SA modify crits. Rogues were given Sneak Attack instead of Backstab or some sort of critical hit ability so they could deal good, consistent damage in a fight instead of just dealing a massive burst of damage and then being near-worthless. Duly noted, and yes I know why it was done the way it was, I just think there is a better system, and it involves integrating that damage into crits, and my idea really has nothing to do with backstab, backstab did not even enter my train of thought when coming up with the idea, I just thought there must be a more elgant way of doing SA and incorporating it into the critical hit system.
starfire311 10-23-06, 09:07 AM	OK here 2 more ideas that I had, 1) making SA only work with Rogue weapons, ala Monk/flurry. 2) redo my SA system as follows add level to damage per extra crit multiplier on a crit (ie x2 = level to damage, x3 = 2x level to damage, x4 = 3x level to damage) at 1st level and every 4 levels thereafter add +1 to confirm crits at 3rd level and every 4 levels threafter add +1 to attack rolls at 5th level and every 6 levels thereafter add +1 to threat range or multiplier. Yes this may be over the top, but if it is limited to rogue weapons, it may not be too bad.
Wayside 10-23-06, 09:22 AM	What about making it a new class feature that replaces sneak attack, and gives the following benefits. Precise strike: A precise strike requires a full-round action. You recieve a bonus to critical hit damage equal to 3+rogue level. (this bonus damage is not multiplied) You recieve a bonus to confirm critical hits equal to half your rogue level, rounded up. (ie whenever you would gain a bonus to sneak attack). And you recieve a bonus to your critical threat range equal to one-quarter your rogue level. (4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th) (This bonus is not multiplied by effects such as keen or improved critical.) So, a 1st level rogue has a +4 to crit dmg, and +1 to confirm crits. (as opposed to +1d6 sneak attack) a 12th has +15 to crit dmg, +6 to confirm crits, and +3 to threat range. (as opposed to +6d6 sneak attack) and a 20th has +23 to crit dmg, +10 to confirm crits, and +5 threat range. (as opposed to +10d6 sneak attack) The additional +3 crit damage is a nice boost for 1st level, and does really affect a 20th level that much. By limiting the character to a single attack this keeps the higher levels in check. Yes a 20th level character with a keen rapier would crit on almost any precise strike, but they are sacrificing their other 2 attacks to do so. The full-round action represents the rogue taking their time to pick out a weak point and strike it, and also provides a nice balance to such a hefty benefit.
starfire311 10-23-06, 09:36 AM	What about making it a new class feature that replaces sneak attack, and gives the following benefits. Precise strike: A precise strike requires a full-round action. You recieve a bonus to critical hit damage equal to 3+rogue level. (this bonus damage is not multiplied) You recieve a bonus to confirm critical hits equal to half your rogue level, rounded up. (ie whenever you would gain a bonus to sneak attack). And you recieve a bonus to your critical threat range equal to one-quarter your rogue level. (4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th) (This bonus is not multiplied by effects such as keen or improved critical.) So, a 1st level rogue has a +4 to crit dmg, and +1 to confirm crits. (as opposed to +1d6 sneak attack) a 12th has +15 to crit dmg, +6 to confirm crits, and +3 to threat range. (as opposed to +6d6 sneak attack) and a 20th has +23 to crit dmg, +10 to confirm crits, and +5 threat range. (as opposed to +10d6 sneak attack) The additional +3 crit damage is a nice boost for 1st level, and does really affect a 20th level that much. By limiting the character to a single attack this keeps the higher levels in check. Yes a 20th level character with a keen rapier would crit on almost any precise strike, but they are sacrificing their other 2 attacks to do so. The full-round action represents the rogue taking their time to pick out a weak point and strike it, and also provides a nice balance to such a hefty benefit. this is pretty good stuff wayside, I would like to avoid making it a full-round action because this makes it really hard to pull off, I would prefer maybe a standard action, but I still think it is better as an attack action. Reason being this rule would really encourge the use of 2 handed weapons with a high multiplier, the Scythe would become the rogues favorite weapon, I would prefer to keep the current thought process of rogues trying to get as many attacks per round to take advantage of the extra chance of damage. But the best idea is the front-loading actually, because this will make rogues not suck early on, the problem is balancing the front loading so as to not make it mandatory for all fighters to take level 1 rogue.
calvinNhobbes 10-23-06, 09:59 AM	I also find it funny that the only thing you're doing in this thread is looking at how this would affect various other variant rules and making ad hominem attacks against people and basically ignoring their contributions. I've yet to see you actually add anything to the thread yourself, while I have already brought up two very simple options to address different aspects of yours and starfire's problems with the Sneak Attack system. Nice temper tantrum. I actually do have a post that states I use a feat tree that increases crit range, but I haven't really tested it. Who is ignoring contributions now? If you actually read trapspringer's post instead of just mocking it, you might know why I posted that feat. cartoon character would scream "sneak attack" before whacking the antagonist on the head with a giant mallet He was in fact the one who initiated the mocking. It's actually very closely related to the current Coup-de-Grace rules in the game, basically allowing a rogue to CDG any flat-footed opponent with a significantly lower save-or-die DC. The OP or myself really have no interest in such of feat or mechanic since it basically already exists within the Assassin's death attack feature. I personally have no interest in a save or die type attack. People disrespect you because you ignore their efforts and insult them for no apparant reason. In my first post, the one where you called me "counter-productive and rude" was actually me trying to point out rules already in the game that give you what you want from this houserule. Actually you were the first to disrepect and insult. We are aware of the rules and have found them lacking, illogical, and inconsistent. Telling us to cease our endeavors and go use the rules is insulting. The next one you made was a failed assumption trapspringer was being sarcastic. Wow, you have magical internet sarcasm detection that no one else has. :rolleyes: This most recent one where you called me immature completely ignored another option I gave Initiating insults is immature. Ah, I get it now. You're just angsty Actually I even thanked you for your efforts since it is a nice feat just not relevant to the discussion. Given that the feat does not relate sneak attack damage to critical hits, I would say the feat is irrelevant to the thread, but thanks for the effort anway. Maybe it would help you to know what I think Houserules should do. They really serve two purposes: 1) close glaring, game-breaking rules loopholes so that nobody can say "the rules don't say I can't," and 2) create new guidelines to govern things that the players arguably *should* be able to do yet, for some reason, can't. They should also be as inobtrusive as possible to advoid game balance issues. I'm really not that interested in your house rule philosophy, but thanks for sharing.
calvinNhobbes 10-23-06, 10:14 AM	starfire311, I also suggest you alter the way elemental burst weapons function in the game if you do make sneak attack work using critical hits. I actually use a fixed burst percentage and damage that is independent of the critical threat or multipliers of the actual weapon.
starfire311 10-23-06, 10:20 AM	starfire311, I also suggest you alter the way elemental burst weapons function in the game if you do make sneak attack work using critical hits. I actually use a fixed burst percentage and damage that is independent of the critical threat or multipliers of the actual weapon. Interesting I would like to see your system actually. I realized that burst weapons would become better with this, I was actually joking about this with my friends, that under this variant burst weapons would finally become good... every high level rogue would have a +1 keen, flaming burst, shocking burst, icy burst, acidic burst rapier.
calvinNhobbes 10-23-06, 10:52 AM	The current problem with burst weapons can easily be viewed mathematically. Example: Flaming adds 1d6 damage (3.5 average) for +1 bonus. Flaming burst adds 1d6 (3.5) for +1 bonus plus an additional 0.275 (for a 20/x2 weapon) to 1.65 (18-20/x2 weapon with improved critical or keen to up to 15-20) for +1 bonus. Even if you houserule keen and improved critical to stack you only get 2.475 extra damage. It is more worthwhile to just add another elemental damage for +1. In addition, I find it odd that a magical effect is so dependent of the weapon and only happens on a critical. Instead I take that 3.5 average of a flaming weapon and use it as a base. Example: Lesser flaming burst: 17-20, 5d6 fire damage, +2 bonus Flaming burst: 17-20, 10d6 fire damage, +3 bonus Greater flaming burst: 17-20, 15d6, +4 bonus Each of these weapons also has the +1 flaming bonus included. On a successful attack, roll another d20, on a 17-20 (or 20% chance) the weapon releases its burst effect for the damage listed. 5d6 is 17.5 average damage, but only 20% of the time for 3.5 average damage, just like the +1 flaming bonus. You can change the burst percentage as you like depending if you want the burst effect more of less common, but then change the burst damage accordingly to keep the average damage at 3.5 per +1 bonus. Example: Lesser flaming burst: 17-20, 5d6 fire damage, +2 bonus Flaming burst: 13-20, 5d6 fire damage, +3 bonus Greater flaming burst: 9-20, 5d6, +4 bonus Now they all do 5-30 fire damage but the higher bonus enchantments are more likely to release their burst on a successful hit. What this also does it make is so you can burst even when you don’t critical, and critical even if you don’t burst. If you do manage to critical AND burst on one attack if would definitely be a special rare occurrence and worth the massive damage. You can also play with other dice combinations just set the burst percentage so the average damage is as close to 3.5 as possible. Example: 17-20, 3d10 is 3.3 average, or 18-20, 4d10 is also 3.3 average, which is pretty close. EDIT: This does mean you have to roll an extra d20 each time you hit, but last time I checked players don't mind rolling dice.
Wayside 10-23-06, 10:55 AM	I'm sorry, but i have some heavy critiques of your system starfire. Allowing the rogues to up their multiplier isn't a very good idea imo. A 17th level rogue with improved crit and a rapier threatens a 15-20 for x5 damage. Plus a hefty levelx4 extra damage. On the flip side a weapon that crits on a 20 for x4 doesn't balance with that at all. Improved crit for 19-20, then +3 to threat range brings it to a 16-20 for x4 damage, or it could be weighted into 19-20 x7, with a levelx6 damage boost. it just falls apart quick. Assuming no bonuses but the rogue bonus crit damage and the base weapon damage, a 20th level rogue with a rapier and improved crit feat would be doing +80 damage and doing this virtually every time he hit, allowing multiple attacks with this makes for a ver very broken system. The other problem i have with this is the attack bonus. This attack bonus actually makes a rogue have a better chance of hitting than a fighter of equal level, and that just isn't right. My suggestion if you really want this to be a blanket effect that you don't need a special action for is this: precision (replaces sneak attack class feature); may only be used with light weapons. 3+level bonus damage on a crit; (if you really want to multiply something for higher crit multiplier weapons, try multiplying the 3, 3+level for x2, 6+level for x3, and 9+level for x4) +1 to confirm critical hits at 1st level, 5th level, and every 5 levels thereafter. +1 to threat range every 6 levels.
starfire311 10-23-06, 11:30 AM	I'm sorry, but i have some heavy critiques of your system starfire. Allowing the rogues to up their multiplier isn't a very good idea imo. A 17th level rogue with improved crit and a rapier threatens a 15-20 for x5 damage. Plus a hefty levelx4 extra damage. On the flip side a weapon that crits on a 20 for x4 doesn't balance with that at all. Improved crit for 19-20, then +3 to threat range brings it to a 16-20 for x4 damage, or it could be weighted into 19-20 x7, with a levelx6 damage boost. it just falls apart quick. Assuming no bonuses but the rogue bonus crit damage and the base weapon damage, a 20th level rogue with a rapier and improved crit feat would be doing +80 damage and doing this virtually every time he hit, allowing multiple attacks with this makes for a ver very broken system. let me just start by saying you are wrong... by giving the choice you assure it will be balanced, might be over-powered, but it will be balanced, also by multiplying the crit damage it will assure it stays balanced, the question is how to handle IC/Keen one thought is to not let them stack(this keeps balance), let them stack, but add the SA mod before(this keeps it balanced, but may be over powered), or let them stack but add SA after(this hurts balance, and may or may not be overpowered) Here is why you need to give a choice for example if you only let it add +1 threat range all rogues would use x4 multiplier weapons. take a falchion vs scythe ... 18+/x2 is basically the same as 20/x4... increase both threat ranges by 1 and you get 17+/x20 which is much worse than 19+/x4, in this case not giving the choice really hurts the rapier/falchion. in the example of a 17th level rogue under my system the rapier wielder will take + multiplier each time and so a rapier will be 18+/x5, vs a scythe that could take increased threat each time for 17+/x4 these are basically even. If you do the +1 threat range every 6 levels you would end up at 18th level with rapier that is 15+/x2 or a scythe that is 18+/x4 the scythe is far far better than the rapier. The other problem i have with this is the attack bonus. This attack bonus actually makes a rogue have a better chance of hitting than a fighter of equal level, and that just isn't right. that was actually the idea when I 1st thought of it, when in the right situation the rogue would actually be better than the fighter, acutally most of the time, on par with the fighter. My suggestion if you really want this to be a blanket effect that you don't need a special action for is this: precision (replaces sneak attack class feature); may only be used with light weapons. 3+level bonus damage on a crit; (if you really want to multiply something for higher crit multiplier weapons, try multiplying the 3, 3+level for x2, 6+level for x3, and 9+level for x4) +1 to confirm critical hits at 1st level, 5th level, and every 5 levels thereafter. +1 to threat range every 6 levels. this may work very well it has 2 balancing factors, the flat bonus on a crit favors wide threat ranges while, the +1 to threat range will favor high crit multipliers. It is very close to my OP BTW, except I am of the opinion that the rogue would need a larger bonus to confirm the crits, just to really help increase the consistancy.
trapspringer 10-23-06, 11:40 AM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but he'd be doing that extra damage slightly less than one in every four attacks, right? A level 20 rogue under the current system can pull off an extra 35 dmg every time he hits. If he gets, what, three attacks a round that means he gets an extra 135 damage? If he gets three attacks a round he would only get an average of sixty extra damage. Again, maybe I missed something. Of course my take on this system would blow that all to hell, but then I don't advocate the rogue getting an enhancer to critical hit multipliers. I'd just like to see him score a critical threat with a light weapon any time his opponent is flat footed. Obviously the +1 damage/level thing should apply simply to keep his damage total up.
calvinNhobbes 10-23-06, 12:05 PM	Of course my take on this system would blow that all to hell, but then I don't advocate the rogue getting an enhancer to critical hit multipliers. I'd just like to see him score a critical threat with a light weapon any time his opponent is flat footed. Obviously the +1 damage/level thing should apply simply to keep his damage total up. I agree with trapsinger here. Messing around with multipliers (criticals or otherwise) can quickly overpower and imbalance the game. Increasing the chance of a critical by increasing the threat range and giving confirmation roll bonuses is a good model I think. The rogue would then have to find other methods to enhance his base damage to makes those criticals count (str, magic effects, etc). The good thing about this method would be the rogue would not be as ineffective against crit immune creatures since all these damage bonuses would also be effective, just not the actual critical.
Wayside 10-23-06, 12:22 PM	let me just start by saying you are wrong... by giving the choice you assure it will be balanced, might be over-powered, but it will be balanced, also by multiplying the crit damage it will assure it stays balanced, the question is how to handle IC/Keen one thought is to not let them stack(this keeps balance), let them stack, but add the SA mod before(this keeps it balanced, but may be over powered), or let them stack but add SA after(this hurts balance, and may or may not be overpowered) So you in all honesty don't see a problem with a lvl 20 rogue having a higher attack bonus than a fighter, threatening a critical hit 75% of the time he attacks, and doing a massive bonus of +80 damage. I give up on you if you honestly don't see that as a problem.
calvinNhobbes 10-23-06, 04:51 PM	Here is the feat tree I mentioned earlier. It is based off the idea that 1d6 sneak attack damage is approximately worth a feat (see feat rogue variant or fighter sneak attack variant) and improved critical is a feat (note: that improved critical is not supposed to be used with these feats). In addition, crippling, wounding, and sickening attack are based off the rogue special ability (also approximately worth a feat), and other similar feats (although I can't recall where I saw them). Note: Improved versions of crippling, wounding, and sickening attack can also be made with the appropriate increase in prereqs. I just didn't feel like typing more. Like I said, I haven't tested it at all, but the idea is to just increase the possibility of a critical and then add special effects like ability damage or combat conditions. Note: Yes I realize a rogue can't get +16 BAB until epic, but these feats are meant for a generic class system. Precision Attack Prereq: Int 13, Dex 13, proficiency with the weapon. Benefit: Choose piercing, slashing or bludgeoning. When attacking a target that is denied their Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not) or when flanking the target, your critical threat range is doubled when using the chosen damage type. Special: This bonus stacks with other effects that double critical threat range. Improved Precision Attack Prereq: Int 13, Dex 15, BAB +4, proficiency with the weapon, Precision Attack with damage type. Benefit: When attacking a target that is denied their Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not) or when flanking the target, your critical threat range is doubled when using the chosen damage type. Special: This bonus stacks with other effects that double critical threat range. Greater Precision Attack Prereq: Int 13, Dex 17, BAB +8, proficiency with the weapon, Precision Attack with damage type, Improved Precision Attack with damage type. Benefit: When attacking a target that is denied their Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not) or when flanking the target, your critical threat range is doubled when using the chosen damage type. Special: This bonus stacks with other effects that double critical threat range. Superior Precision Attack Prereq: Int 13, Dex 19, BAB +12, proficiency with the weapon, Precision Attack with damage type, Improved Precision Attack with damage type, Greater Precision Attack with damage type. Benefit: When attacking a target that is denied their Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not) or when flanking the target, your critical threat range is doubled when using the chosen damage type. Special: This bonus stacks with other effects that double critical threat range. Perfect Precision Attack Prereq: Int 13, Dex 21, BAB +16, proficiency with the weapon, Precision Attack with damage type, Improved Precision Attack with damage type, Greater Precision Attack with damage type, Superior Precision Attack with damage type. Benefit: When attacking a target that is denied their Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not) or when flanking the target, your critical threat range is doubled when using the chosen damage type. Special: This bonus stacks with other effects that double critical threat range. Crippling Attack Prereq: Int 13, Dex 13, BAB +2, proficiency with the weapon, Precision Attack with damage type. Benefit: On a successful critical hit with the chosen damage type, you also deal 1 point of strength damage and 1 point of dexterity damage. Wounding Attack Prereq: Int 13, Dex 13, BAB +2, proficiency with the weapon, Precision Attack with damage type. Benefit: On a successful critical hit with the chosen damage type, you also deal 1 point of constitution damage. Sickening Attack Prereq: Int 13, Dex 13, BAB +2, proficiency with the weapon, Precision Attack with damage type. Benefit: On a successful critical hit with the chosen damage type, the target becomes sickened (takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks) for 1 round.
starfire311 10-23-06, 06:12 PM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but he'd be doing that extra damage slightly less than one in every four attacks, right? A level 20 rogue under the current system can pull off an extra 35 dmg every time he hits. If he gets, what, three attacks a round that means he gets an extra 135 damage? If he gets three attacks a round he would only get an average of sixty extra damage. Again, maybe I missed something. ok I havent run the numbers yet, but I guess now is as good a time as any for simplicty I will use a level 20 rogue, that has an 18 strength, and a +5 rapier with no abilities, and assuming that he has a 50% chance to hit with 1 attack. Case 1 Standard Rogue when SAing has 1D6+9+10D6 damage crit 18+/x2 average damage is 27.2 per SA Full attack(3attacks) is 39.5 Case 2 OP Rogue(loses 10D6 SA, gains +20 damage on a crit, +10 to confirm crits, +3 crit range) when SAing has 1D6+9+(20 on a crit), Crit 15+/x2, +10 confirm Average Damage is 15.5 per SA Full attack(3 attacks) is 31.5 Case 3 OP Rogue(loses 10D6 SA, gains +20 damage on a crit, +10 to confirm crits, +3 crit multiplier) when SAing has 1D6+9+(20 on a crit), Crit 18+/x5, +10 confirm Average Damage is 16.2 per SA Full attack(3 attacks) is 33.1 Case 4 my latest Rogue(loses 10D6 SA, gains +20 damage on a crit(that gets multiplied), +10 to confirm crits, +3 crit multiplier, +5 attack) when SAing has +5 to hit, 1D6+9+(80 on a crit), Crit 18+/x5, +10 confirm Average Damage is 27.9 per SA Full attack(3 attacks) is 61.7 Case 5 Waysides Rogue(loses 10D6 SA, gains +23 damage on a crit, +5 to confirm crits, +3 crit range) when SAing has , 1D6+9+(23 on a crit), Crit 15+/x2, +5 confirm Average Damage is 14.2 per SA Full attack(3 attacks) is 26.0 Case 6 Combo mine and Waysides Rogue(loses 10D6 SA, gains +23 damage on a crit, +5 to confirm crits, +5 attack rolls +3 crit range) when SAing has , +5 attack 1D6+9+(23 on a crit), Crit 15+/x2, +5 confirm Average Damage is 19.5 per SA Full attack(3 attacks) is 42.2 So you in all honesty don't see a problem with a lvl 20 rogue having a higher attack bonus than a fighter, threatening a critical hit 75% of the time he attacks, and doing a massive bonus of +80 damage. I give up on you if you honestly don't see that as a problem. How a fighter performs was irrelevant to the analysis I was putting forth, I conceded that this might be overpowered, but just because something looks overpowered doesn't always mean it is, and fighter by no means should be the measuring sick for comparissons of relative power, fighter is woefully underpowered. Feel free to give up, I am sorry if I somehow offended you.
rydi123 10-23-06, 06:17 PM	didn't read full thread, so if someone already posted this, just ignore me. Lifted this from KOTOR- Critical Strike - Melee/Lightsaber only, no requirements When used, you take a -5 penalty to your DEFENSE, you get a doubled Critical Hit chance, and a chance to stun your opponent for 6 seconds (DC = Level + STR MOD). > Improved Critical Strike - Level 4 Same as above, but with a tripled Critical Hit chance. > Master Critical Strike - Level 8 Same as above, but with a quadrupled Critical Hit chance.
Wayside 10-23-06, 07:15 PM	I'd also like to point out my suggested replacement for sneak attack doesn't require the target to be flat-footed or without dex. My suggestion is just a benefit that the rogue always gets. Not needing to spend a special action to do, or be under the conditions of sneak attack. This is where part of our miscommunication came in because i thought your method was the same. But you must admit that with a +4 keen rapier instead of a +5 rapier, your model for that option is still grossly overpowered. and on a side note my comparison to a fighter was just intended as a comparison to a full bab class.
trapspringer 10-23-06, 07:37 PM	didn't read full thread, so if someone already posted this, just ignore me. Lifted this from KOTOR- ... Which also uses sneak attack.
starfire311 10-24-06, 08:56 AM	I'd also like to point out my suggested replacement for sneak attack doesn't require the target to be flat-footed or without dex. My suggestion is just a benefit that the rogue always gets. Not needing to spend a special action to do, or be under the conditions of sneak attack. This is where part of our miscommunication came in because i thought your method was the same. yes I misunderstood a bit, my idea is that this would only apply in the same circumstances SA currently applies.... But you must admit that with a +4 keen rapier instead of a +5 rapier, your model for that option is still grossly overpowered. and on a side note my comparison to a fighter was just intended as a comparison to a full bab class. That is why I posted the question is how to handle IC/Keen one thought is to not let them stack(this keeps balance), let them stack, but add the SA mod before(this keeps it balanced, but may be over powered), or let them stack but add SA after(this hurts balance, and may or may not be overpowered) I am still leaning toward letting IC/keen stack.. but it may become too good, I need to actually playtest it some before making a decision.
rydi123 10-24-06, 10:32 AM	I am still leaning toward letting IC/keen stack.. but it may become too good, I need to actually playtest it some before making a decision. i've played using that rule on several occassions, and assuming you are playing at standard and above power level (with core only, or base classes only being in the low end of power) it works out just fine. Crits, as they are, are a fun but ultimately undependable aspect of the game that don't do much on average. with the stacking, you get characters that use crits tactically, but they generally aren't more powerful than any other focused builds, especially since half the monsters in the game are uncrittable.