(Idea) PC Attributes: Elite Array + Template bonus (with LA)? [Archive] - Wizards Community

(Idea) PC Attributes: Elite Array + Template bonus (with LA)? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thelon Fairblade
05-31-05, 09:18 AM I was thinking about running a campaign where all PCs begin with +2 LA.

However, I didn't want to penalize people who choose a core race, but neither did I want them to start with 2 extra levels.

So I was thinking: Instead of point-buy or rolling for attributes, what about this: all PCs begin with the Elite Array (just like the Iconic characters do). If they so choose, they can take the "Increased Stats" template, which does nothing but increase their ability scores, for +1 or +2 LA. (Probably call it something more like the "Hero" template or something.)

What stat boost format would be worth a +1 LA? a +2 LA?

I was thinking, for +1 LA, "+2 to all stats, or 8 points spread as desired (no more than 4 to one stat)".
For +2 LA, "+4 to all stats, or 16 points spread as desired (no more than 8 to 1 stat)

So you could see:
15,14,13,11,10,8 Drow
15,14,13,11,10,8 Lich
17,16,15,13,12,10 Dwarf Mineral Warrior (or 19,16,14,12,10,8)
19,18,17,15,14,12 Human or (23,18,16,14,12,10,8)
DrakaraGM
05-31-05, 07:49 PM ... Human or (23,18,16,14,12,10,8)
I want to be the guy with 7 stats... :D

I think this is a reasonable idea, but I am also not sure of the amount of stat increase that would be appropriate. Perhaps a little less drastic? Such as +2 to 4 ability scores for +1 LA and +4 to 4 scores for +2 LA?
Kintaran
05-31-05, 08:07 PM Just to let you know, liches are not LA +2. They are CR +2. Their LA is higher because their special abilities and undead immunities are much more relevant as PCs instead of enemies. A PC gets far more mileage out of their DR and crit immunities than an NPC lich the PCs face once.

Also, as far as the statistics increase, +2 to two or three abilities is worth somewhere around +1, and +4 to two or more about +2. Personally, I would rather take, say, Fast Healing 3 for one of the level adjustments. Savage Species, though 3.0, lists level adjustments for pretty much every under the sun. Though it lists it as a whole value, I tend to do the whole thing by fractions. For example, up to three points of Fast Healing are worth LA +1. So Fast Healing 1 is only LA +1/3, and could be combined with LA +2/3 of other stuff to make LA +1. (I really like fast healing on a PC.)
DrakaraGM
05-31-05, 08:16 PM I like that idea... So what you are saying is perhaps Thelon Fairblade should take a look at Savage Species, and using their LA adjustments as a guide, provide a list of abilities that PCs could take to get their LA rather than just adding a bunch of stat points? On the list of course would be adding stat points too, for those who just wanted more heroic versions of the standard races -- but for instance if I wanted a Dwarf with damage reduction and fast healing, I might be able to do that...if I picked values of those abilities that added up to LA +2 total. :)

I like that better than just extra ability score points -- and it can be worked into a character's ancestry or background as part of his story -- "Grandad was an X and although he didn't leave my family with much, he did pass on his ability to Y..." It would not be quite the same as a bloodline but could be similar in terms of providing players with a means of customizing their standard race characters that could get them something that that LA races don't have, though the LA races may well have more special abilities overall.
Kintaran
05-31-05, 10:17 PM Basically, yes. I have this tendency to oscillate between 'somewhat subtle' and 'blatantly obvious.'

Also, this can be used with LA +1 templates/races and beef them up a touch too. Obviously, careful DM attention needs to be paid with these, because someone with Fast Healing 3 and +4 Con is going to be nearly impossible to kill.
J Milburn
06-01-05, 01:50 PM Perhaps that would work on a world like limbo, or any very high magic world, but then there will be humans running around with all sorts of wierd abilities, it would be like x-men or something.
fawr
06-07-05, 08:43 AM Giving a monster the "elite array" increases its CR by +1, and thats changing 13,12,11,10,9,8 (15 point build) to
15,14,13,12,10,8 (25 point build).

So I think that it would be balanced for the players to add 10 points to the character they get for each +1 LA they give up (maybe as low as 7 or 8 depending on how you think LA should scale with CR in this case).

One thing I wouldn'd do is just let the players add to their stats. The point build system makes high scores cost more for a reason.

Alternativly you could give them a medium bloodline without the missed levels, and that would compensate them (and give their characters flavor).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thelon Fairblade 05-31-05, 09:18 AM	I was thinking about running a campaign where all PCs begin with +2 LA. However, I didn't want to penalize people who choose a core race, but neither did I want them to start with 2 extra levels. So I was thinking: Instead of point-buy or rolling for attributes, what about this: all PCs begin with the Elite Array (just like the Iconic characters do). If they so choose, they can take the "Increased Stats" template, which does nothing but increase their ability scores, for +1 or +2 LA. (Probably call it something more like the "Hero" template or something.) What stat boost format would be worth a +1 LA? a +2 LA? I was thinking, for +1 LA, "+2 to all stats, or 8 points spread as desired (no more than 4 to one stat)". For +2 LA, "+4 to all stats, or 16 points spread as desired (no more than 8 to 1 stat) So you could see: 15,14,13,11,10,8 Drow 15,14,13,11,10,8 Lich 17,16,15,13,12,10 Dwarf Mineral Warrior (or 19,16,14,12,10,8) 19,18,17,15,14,12 Human or (23,18,16,14,12,10,8)
DrakaraGM 05-31-05, 07:49 PM	... Human or (23,18,16,14,12,10,8) I want to be the guy with 7 stats... :D I think this is a reasonable idea, but I am also not sure of the amount of stat increase that would be appropriate. Perhaps a little less drastic? Such as +2 to 4 ability scores for +1 LA and +4 to 4 scores for +2 LA?
Kintaran 05-31-05, 08:07 PM	Just to let you know, liches are not LA +2. They are CR +2. Their LA is higher because their special abilities and undead immunities are much more relevant as PCs instead of enemies. A PC gets far more mileage out of their DR and crit immunities than an NPC lich the PCs face once. Also, as far as the statistics increase, +2 to two or three abilities is worth somewhere around +1, and +4 to two or more about +2. Personally, I would rather take, say, Fast Healing 3 for one of the level adjustments. Savage Species, though 3.0, lists level adjustments for pretty much every under the sun. Though it lists it as a whole value, I tend to do the whole thing by fractions. For example, up to three points of Fast Healing are worth LA +1. So Fast Healing 1 is only LA +1/3, and could be combined with LA +2/3 of other stuff to make LA +1. (I really like fast healing on a PC.)
DrakaraGM 05-31-05, 08:16 PM	I like that idea... So what you are saying is perhaps Thelon Fairblade should take a look at Savage Species, and using their LA adjustments as a guide, provide a list of abilities that PCs could take to get their LA rather than just adding a bunch of stat points? On the list of course would be adding stat points too, for those who just wanted more heroic versions of the standard races -- but for instance if I wanted a Dwarf with damage reduction and fast healing, I might be able to do that...if I picked values of those abilities that added up to LA +2 total. :) I like that better than just extra ability score points -- and it can be worked into a character's ancestry or background as part of his story -- "Grandad was an X and although he didn't leave my family with much, he did pass on his ability to Y..." It would not be quite the same as a bloodline but could be similar in terms of providing players with a means of customizing their standard race characters that could get them something that that LA races don't have, though the LA races may well have more special abilities overall.
Kintaran 05-31-05, 10:17 PM	Basically, yes. I have this tendency to oscillate between 'somewhat subtle' and 'blatantly obvious.' Also, this can be used with LA +1 templates/races and beef them up a touch too. Obviously, careful DM attention needs to be paid with these, because someone with Fast Healing 3 and +4 Con is going to be nearly impossible to kill.
J Milburn 06-01-05, 01:50 PM	Perhaps that would work on a world like limbo, or any very high magic world, but then there will be humans running around with all sorts of wierd abilities, it would be like x-men or something.
fawr 06-07-05, 08:43 AM	Giving a monster the "elite array" increases its CR by +1, and thats changing 13,12,11,10,9,8 (15 point build) to 15,14,13,12,10,8 (25 point build). So I think that it would be balanced for the players to add 10 points to the character they get for each +1 LA they give up (maybe as low as 7 or 8 depending on how you think LA should scale with CR in this case). One thing I wouldn'd do is just let the players add to their stats. The point build system makes high scores cost more for a reason. Alternativly you could give them a medium bloodline without the missed levels, and that would compensate them (and give their characters flavor).