Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AMGriffin 08-11-07, 12:57 AM	Hello. This is an idea's that been floating around in my head for a while. I don't really know what to say about it, it's just another way of diversifying your character's traits. Keep in mind, this is a very basic rough draft, and input would be appreciated. Sub-abilities are further divisions of the six basic ability scores into two distinct abilities. They work in a relatively simple manner. You roll ability scores as normal, and multiply your result by two. You may then divide those points into the two sub-abilities. The difference in sub-ability scores may not exceed 18. For example, Kaze the Paladin has a Dexterity score of 12. Therefore, the highest value of one sub-ability could be 16, and minimum value 8. The Sub-abilities Strength (Power and Athleticism) Power Power is a character's raw ability to exert force on their environment. A powerful character with low athleticism is most likely a hulking mountain of muscle and fat that throws their weight around to do damage. You may apply your power modifier to... -Damage Rolls -Strength Checks related to breaking down doors and such Athleticism Athleticism is a character's physical capabilities relative to their own body. Athletic characters may be scrawny or thin, but they are capable of dynamic and deft physical actions. Athletic characters with low power may be thin or lacking muscle, but what muscle they have will be well-defined and sinewy. You may apply your athleticism modifier to... -Melee attack rolls -Climb, Jump, and Swim skill checks. Other: The lifting and carrying limits of a character are still defined by their base strength ability score. Dexterity (Agility and Coordination) Agility Agility represent a character's overall reflexes and speed. Agile would be good at avoiding traps or doging blows, but agility is not a reflection of manual dexterity. Agile characters with low coordination will be fast, but perhaps clumsy and erratic in their movements. You may apply your agility modifier to... -Reflex saves -Dodge AC bonus Coordination Coordination is a character's balance, aim, and hand-eye coordination. A coordinated character will be good with delicate precise movements. Coordinated characters with low agility will have good physical control, but overall be rather sluggish. You may apply your coordination modifier to... -Ranged Attack Rolls. -Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Open lock, Ride, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, and Use rope skill checks. Constitution (Stamina and Durability) Stamina Stamina is a character's raw ability to take punishment. It is a not a reflection of a character's physical resilience, but rather how much damage they can take. Characters with high Stamina and low durability may be physically tough but get sick easily. You may apply your stamina modifier to... -Each Roll of a hit die Durability Durability is your character's ability to withstand and shrug off physical trauma. Durable characters can fight off disease or ignore physical pain effectively. Durable characters with low stamina may be out of shape and tire easily, but can resist trauma well. You may apply your durability modifier to... -Fortitude saves -Concentration checks Wisdom (Willpower and Awareness) Willpower Will power is your character's strength of mind. Characters with high will power are brave and sometimes stubborn. Strong-willed characters with low awareness are typically recklessly brave and brash. You may apply your willpower modifier to... -Will Saves Awareness Awareness is a measure of your character's common sense, perception, and intuition. Aware characters are typically quick to notice subtle changes or expression in a person that most would not catch onto. Aware characters wilth low willpower may be jittery and nervous, ever on edge and in search of danger. You may apply your Awareness modifier to... - Heal, Listen, Profession, Sense motive, spot, and Survival skill checks. Intelligence (Reason, Learning capability) Reason Reason is your character's understanding of their environment around them and a general measure of what they know. Characters with high reasoning may be well educated or simply just have a knack for remembering things they've heard. A character with reason but low learning capability will appear conventionally smart, but be somewhat thick headed and catch on slowly. You may apply your Reason modifier to... -The number of languages your character knows at the start of a game. - Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Knowledge, Search, and Spellcraft skill checks. Learning Capability As the name states, this is how well your character learns. Characters with high learning capability but low reason may appear "dumb" with simplistic vocabularies and a lack of understanding of things, but they catch on and learn quickly. You may apply your learning capability modifier to... -The number of skillpoints gained at each level. Charisma (Presence and Personality) Presence Presence is the general appearence and atmosphere of your character. Characters with good Presence scores are inclined towards a striking appearence and generally vibrance in their actions that draws other to them. Characters with high presence and low personality may be attractive, but introverted. You may apply your presence modifier to... -Disguise, Handle Animal, Perform, and Use magical device skill checks. - Reaction rolls dealing with NPCs. Personality Personality is the generally magnetism and ability to lead your character displays. Characters with good personalities make good leaders and generally can draw many people to a cause. Characters with low-presence and high personality may be rather plain in appearence, but are persuasive and have a way with words. You may apply your personality modifier to... - Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather information, and Intimidate skill checks. - Checks made to influence others. final notes So far I haven't put much thought into how this will effect class-specific abilities, but so far I'm thinking that maybe it'd just be easiest and best if the base ability score itself still is used to determine modifiers made to class-specific abilities. Any suggestions or constructive criticism is welcome :)
TheAnthroDM 08-11-07, 01:00 AM	Reasoning seems to be linked more to Wisdom.
stargate525 08-11-07, 01:09 AM	Reasoning seems to be linked more to Wisdom. Not really. Reasoning would be the theory that if A does B, then C should do D. Wisdom would be guy who goes, yes, but that's not how it REALLY works.
AMGriffin 08-11-07, 01:28 AM	Yeah, I was kinda iffy on how to divide intelligence. I figured that intelligence had to symbolize understanding to some extent. Maybe I poorly described reason. By understanding of their environment I meant something similar to a mechanic knowing how a car works, but not necessarily being a good driver, if that metaphor works. Either way, does it seem relatively balanced? Anything like that? What about giving races bonuses/penalties to sub-abilities?
Kradlo 08-11-07, 01:31 AM	Sub-abilities were one of the optional rules from AD&D 2.0, from Player's Option: Skills & Powers. As offered, it was interesting, as it allowed for more varied characters. Unfortunately, certain sub-abilities were more useful than others, and so the system was open to abuse. The system you've shown, if I interpret it correctly, allows for a huge variance between the two sub-ability scores. Even if the 18 is a typo, and 8 is the correct number, that's still a pretty big difference. As has been shown, a bonus on attacks is more effective than a similar bonus on damage. So, athleticism would rank as more useful than power. With Power Attack, you've got it all. Also keep in mind that you'd have to go through almost every type of skill and ability check and make the change to the appropriate sub-ability. That's a lot of work.
AMGriffin 08-11-07, 11:22 AM	Sub-abilities were one of the optional rules from AD&D 2.0, from Player's Option: Skills & Powers. As offered, it was interesting, as it allowed for more varied characters. Unfortunately, certain sub-abilities were more useful than others, and so the system was open to abuse. Yeah, I know what you mean but ability scores themselves are unbalanced, so why wouldn't the same apply to sub-ability scores? The system you've shown, if I interpret it correctly, allows for a huge variance between the two sub-ability scores. Even if the 18 is a typo, and 8 is the correct number, that's still a pretty big difference. Yeah, the difference was eight, not eighteen. I don't think the difference is too great. If its that big of a deal you could lower it to six or four points, but that doesn't allow for as much customization. As has been shown, a bonus on attacks is more effective than a similar bonus on damage. So, athleticism would rank as more useful than power. With Power Attack, you've got it all. I disagree, I don't think you've "got it all". In fact, I don't think its really that big of a deal. Taking weapon finesse could completely negate any use of athleticism. I'm also skeptical as to this idea that damage bonuses aren't effective as attack bonuses. Also keep in mind that you'd have to go through almost every type of skill and ability check and make the change to the appropriate sub-ability. That's a lot of work. That's relatively simple, actually. The way the abilities are divided, one sub-ability handles skill checks for the most part, and its really not that much work. Most ability checks would be common sense I think, though I'll consider adding them on sometime. UPDATE After some consideration I've decided to change a ruling that lifting and carrying limits are decided by your overall base ability score. From this point on, it is the power modifer that effects your character's lifting and carrying limits.
Yabanjin 08-11-07, 12:43 PM	You might go to wiki and check out the work of a Howard Gardner on the different types of intelligence. Regardless of its real world veracity, it might give you some ideas.
nonsi 08-12-07, 10:08 AM	Several problems I found, if one tries to corelate to reality: 1. Athleticism is so loosely tied to strength it has to be completely separated. Most leading athletes are nowhere near the strongest 20% of the population. I believe a separate ability called "Agility" would better describe one's Athleticism - and you don't have to be dexterous to excel in long/high jumps or in climbing - you just have to be strong enough compared to your physique. 2. I fail to see how your CON division describes two different aspects. Also, since the characters are intensely active most of their lives, there shouldn't be any issue with the "blood chemistry" aspect of their health. 3. Your WIS division is the least intuitive of all (to me). I know several people who are incredibly perceptive, but are totally feebleminded idiots. 4. As for CHA............. Hitler was plain simple UGLY - and yet he was extremely chrismatic. Here's an ability rearangement I made not too long ago: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13096435&postcount=36 see if it makes sense to you.
BigGus 08-13-07, 02:18 PM	I like this idea, I'd been thinking about a very similar system myself, as the 6 ability scores just don't seem enough to describe a human being (or whatever). The ones that really got me thinking about it were Charisma (appearance and personality are completely seperate concepts, and their effects diverge as often as they converge) and Dexterity (whole-body agility and fine-coordination manual dexterity often don't correspond - not in me they don't, anyway). I finally decided against such a system because I decided it would make an already complicated system even more labyrinthine, and because of the endless hours it would take to convert each and every monster to this system. Having said that, if you can be bothered to do it, kudos to you. One comment I'd make is that the maximum difference between the two halves of an ability should only be 4 (or at most 6); I think to make it 8 or more makes the system too abusable by allowing characters to select only the sub-abilities which are most useful for their class.
BigGus 08-13-07, 02:23 PM	One other thing; how would this work with magic? Would you keep generalised ability scores to base bonus spells, spell DCs etc. on?
Sphyre 08-14-07, 11:21 PM	Wisdom (Willpower and Awareness) Willpower Will power is your character's strength of mind. Characters with high will power are brave and sometimes stubborn. Strong-willed characters with low awareness are typically recklessly brave and brash. You may apply your willpower modifier to... -Will Saves Awareness Awareness is a measure of your character's common sense, perception, and intuition. Aware characters are typically quick to notice subtle changes or expression in a person that most would not catch onto. Aware characters wilth low willpower may be jittery and nervous, ever on edge and in search of danger. You may apply your Awareness modifier to... - Heal, Listen, Profession, Sense motive, spot, and Survival skill checks. I'm a fighter. I rolled a 12 on my wisdom. I'm going to make sure I can make my will saves. Instead of getting a +1 to will saves, I'm going to get a +3 for having a 16 willpower, and instead of +1 to listen, sense motive, spot (the most likely a fighter would use) i'll have a -1. Intelligence (Reason, Learning capability) Reason Reason is your character's understanding of their environment around them and a general measure of what they know. Characters with high reasoning may be well educated or simply just have a knack for remembering things they've heard. A character with reason but low learning capability will appear conventionally smart, but be somewhat thick headed and catch on slowly. You may apply your Reason modifier to... -The number of languages your character knows at the start of a game. - Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Knowledge, Search, and Spellcraft skill checks. Learning Capability As the name states, this is how well your character learns. Characters with high learning capability but low reason may appear "dumb" with simplistic vocabularies and a lack of understanding of things, but they catch on and learn quickly. You may apply your learning capability modifier to... -The number of skillpoints gained at each level So, I rolled a 12 for int, I think I'll be a good learner, but not a very good Reasoner to get more skill points. Not that the concept is bad, but it's pretty easy to abuse if you get to control the sub-abilities scores.