Incentive to roll all the dice [Archive] - Wizards Community

Incentive to roll all the dice [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
theotherdraxen
12-16-06, 06:27 PM So I started using the UA variant: player's roll all the dice. I was hoping this would allow me to throw in more badguys without detracting from time spent with the player's in the spot-light.

However, I'm starting to notice that Defense rolls just aren't very fun to make: there's no reward for a natural 20 and you get punished if you roll a natural 1 (enemy crits). Plus, low rolls make the player feel like their defense was so screwy that they were just left wide open for a critical.

I prefer using this rule, as it saves me time and keeps the players on their toes. However, it would be nice if something good happened on a natural 20. Any thoughts?
058
12-16-06, 08:02 PM You could implement a counter-attack rule. Natural twenties allow for the player to make an attack of opportunity.

I'm not familiar with the house rule you're talking about, but I can infer that it allows a player to make a roll (opposed, or not?) during an opponent's attack turn, rather than having a fixed armour-class, to determine if a foe hits or not.
theotherdraxen
12-16-06, 08:15 PM Enemies become stat blocks only. I simply state that they are going to attack, and players try to beat the DC to dodge out of the way.

Your suggestion sounds like a good one. Is there a rationale for only the heroes being able to make such attacks?
DrakoShade
12-16-06, 10:02 PM Treat the player rolling a 20 on the defense roll as the enemy making a critical fumble. If you want, you can rule that a critical fumble generates an AoO, in which case you'd have to do the same for when the players roll a natural 1 on an attack...
058
12-16-06, 10:26 PM The incentive is, at least for mêlée combat, that a skilled combatant will search for openings in his opponent's defence and exploit them as they appear. A natural twenty could demonstrate a lapse in one's enemy's defences or a poorly thought-ought strike, or simply an especially quick draw on the defender's part.

For ranged combat, this might not work so well. Perhaps count a natural twenty versus a ranged or magic attack as a very well-performed dodge? Maybe allow the character to take a free five-foot step during his opponent's turn, not counting away from his own?

Hm. Perhaps even allowing the player to decide whether he or she wants a counter-attack or the free five-foot step, even in mêlée, would be a good choice . . . .
theotherdraxen
12-17-06, 07:35 PM I like granting them an AoO, but I don't want to introduce critical fumbles. How can I set this up without screwing my player's over or breaking the versimilitude?
058
12-17-06, 09:16 PM Verisimilitude, surprisingly, is a word I'm not familiar with, but you can do this without screwing your players over by simply making the natural twenty an attack of opportunity and completely ignoring natural ones.

As a side-note, personally, I don't believe that critical fumbles screw with the balance at all. It's good to have something on the opposite spectrum of a twenty, and besides, some of the best times I can recall have been because of a few simultaneous natural ones. ;)
theotherdraxen
12-17-06, 10:13 PM Verisimilitude, surprisingly, is a word I'm not familiar with, but you can do this without screwing your players over by simply making the natural twenty an attack of opportunity and completely ignoring natural ones.
Versimilitude is in the DMG somewhere, IIRC. Yeah, I didn't think of that one: 'natural ones on attack don't provoke AoOs because I don't use critical fumbles". Hm...I hope one of my player's steps in here to let me (and the rest of the internet) know what they think of this.

As a side-note, personally, I don't believe that critical fumbles screw with the balance at all. It's good to have something on the opposite spectrum of a twenty, and besides, some of the best times I can recall have been because of a few simultaneous natural ones. ;)

I like 'em too, but they screw with people that get extra attacks. Two weapon fighting is bad enough as is. I use them for creatures under 5th level (you're presumably unheroic enough to screw up that royally below 5th).
058
12-18-06, 04:18 PM With two-weapon fighting or multiple attacks-per-round, you could simply limit the number of critical fumbles per round to one, no matter the number of attacks.

Heh. We apply critical failures to skill-checks, as well, which is how we once ended up with the samurai and druid both hanging down a pit, anchored to the edge by the wizard with nine strength and the fighter above having no idea what had just happened. ;)
theotherdraxen
12-18-06, 05:22 PM With two-weapon fighting or multiple attacks-per-round, you could simply limit the number of critical fumbles per round to one, no matter the number of attacks.

I like it, but it still does mean that the warrior types will fumble twice as often as the spellcaster types, even if it's only one fumble that provokes one AoO against just one opponent (who may not take it anyway).
058
12-18-06, 05:40 PM Why, because casters are in ranged combat as opposed to mêlée?
theotherdraxen
12-18-06, 05:51 PM Why, because casters are in ranged combat as opposed to mêlée?

No. Because warrior-types roll more d20s than casters do.

I wish there was some way I could say the AoO thing was a 'heroes only' thing, but I don't think there is a realistic answer.
simplyscribed
12-18-06, 08:40 PM Thought: You have to roll a 1 on all your attack rolls to critically fumble? For high level characters it would rarely happen, if ever, but when it did it'd be oh-so-memorable. If you wanted them to be a little less rare, say that a 1 is a fumble as long as all other attack rolls made by the character in this turn miss.
SageBahamut
12-19-06, 01:28 AM Thought: You have to roll a 1 on all your attack rolls to critically fumble? For high level characters it would rarely happen, if ever, but when it did it'd be oh-so-memorable. If you wanted them to be a little less rare, say that a 1 is a fumble as long as all other attack rolls made by the character in this turn miss.

I like this. It's always been one of my complaints about the d20 system that a grand-master swordsman has the same 5% chance of critically botching as a first-day student. I'm sorry, but Miyamoto Musashi is not equally likely to drop a sword on his foot as Joe Manshield.

Alternatively, you could do critical botches like critical hits - include a roll to confirm. If you swing and roll a nat 1, then swing and miss, you botch. Those funky feats that improve your rolls-to-confirm help you on this roll, too. (Even though it's technically a roll to avoid confirming.)
Keterys
12-20-06, 10:55 AM Or... just don't worry about it. It can be hero only if it only applies to defense rolls. In this variant, the PCs are rolling it all... monsters never get a defense roll.

So, a 20 crits for attacks, and 'crits' for defense. It could give an AoO, stop further attacks, give the monster a penalty (-5 to attacks for 1 round, etc), make the monster fumble... all kinds of possibilities.

Only other thing I'd like cleaned up is the '1s become a critical' with extended crit ranges. I think I'd just as soon make it so they don't have extended crit ranges, and just have bigger multipliers (in this system)
theotherdraxen
12-20-06, 06:40 PM Or... just don't worry about it. It can be hero only if it only applies to defense rolls. In this variant, the PCs are rolling it all... monsters never get a defense roll.
Yeah, it's either this or I drop the system. I'll bring it up with them next chance I get (which should be soon).
So, a 20 crits for attacks, and 'crits' for defense. It could give an AoO, stop further attacks, give the monster a penalty (-5 to attacks for 1 round, etc), make the monster fumble... all kinds of possibilities.
Exactly what I was looking for. Defense Crit possibilites:
1. Provokes AoO
2. Confers 5-foot step
3. 'Clobbers' bad-guy (loses rest of attacks).
4. Fumbles bad guy (loses weapon, falls, etc.)

Anyone got any more?
Only other thing I'd like cleaned up is the '1s become a critical' with extended crit ranges. I think I'd just as soon make it so they don't have extended crit ranges, and just have bigger multipliers (in this system)

Might I ask why?
Keterys
12-20-06, 06:59 PM Mostly I'm just not a big fan of figuring out 'So, I rolled a 4... does he have improved crit... and it's a longsword, okay... so that's... okay, yeah, possible threat' for hitting yourself :) It's okay, but frankly I think that some players get crit a lot less cause of it and it's more in the theme of the new rule to trigger on 1s :)

It's not exactly a big deal or anything.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
theotherdraxen 12-16-06, 06:27 PM	So I started using the UA variant: player's roll all the dice. I was hoping this would allow me to throw in more badguys without detracting from time spent with the player's in the spot-light. However, I'm starting to notice that Defense rolls just aren't very fun to make: there's no reward for a natural 20 and you get punished if you roll a natural 1 (enemy crits). Plus, low rolls make the player feel like their defense was so screwy that they were just left wide open for a critical. I prefer using this rule, as it saves me time and keeps the players on their toes. However, it would be nice if something good happened on a natural 20. Any thoughts?
058 12-16-06, 08:02 PM	You could implement a counter-attack rule. Natural twenties allow for the player to make an attack of opportunity. I'm not familiar with the house rule you're talking about, but I can infer that it allows a player to make a roll (opposed, or not?) during an opponent's attack turn, rather than having a fixed armour-class, to determine if a foe hits or not.
theotherdraxen 12-16-06, 08:15 PM	Enemies become stat blocks only. I simply state that they are going to attack, and players try to beat the DC to dodge out of the way. Your suggestion sounds like a good one. Is there a rationale for only the heroes being able to make such attacks?
DrakoShade 12-16-06, 10:02 PM	Treat the player rolling a 20 on the defense roll as the enemy making a critical fumble. If you want, you can rule that a critical fumble generates an AoO, in which case you'd have to do the same for when the players roll a natural 1 on an attack...
058 12-16-06, 10:26 PM	The incentive is, at least for mêlée combat, that a skilled combatant will search for openings in his opponent's defence and exploit them as they appear. A natural twenty could demonstrate a lapse in one's enemy's defences or a poorly thought-ought strike, or simply an especially quick draw on the defender's part. For ranged combat, this might not work so well. Perhaps count a natural twenty versus a ranged or magic attack as a very well-performed dodge? Maybe allow the character to take a free five-foot step during his opponent's turn, not counting away from his own? Hm. Perhaps even allowing the player to decide whether he or she wants a counter-attack or the free five-foot step, even in mêlée, would be a good choice . . . .
theotherdraxen 12-17-06, 07:35 PM	I like granting them an AoO, but I don't want to introduce critical fumbles. How can I set this up without screwing my player's over or breaking the versimilitude?
058 12-17-06, 09:16 PM	Verisimilitude, surprisingly, is a word I'm not familiar with, but you can do this without screwing your players over by simply making the natural twenty an attack of opportunity and completely ignoring natural ones. As a side-note, personally, I don't believe that critical fumbles screw with the balance at all. It's good to have something on the opposite spectrum of a twenty, and besides, some of the best times I can recall have been because of a few simultaneous natural ones. ;)
theotherdraxen 12-17-06, 10:13 PM	Verisimilitude, surprisingly, is a word I'm not familiar with, but you can do this without screwing your players over by simply making the natural twenty an attack of opportunity and completely ignoring natural ones. Versimilitude is in the DMG somewhere, IIRC. Yeah, I didn't think of that one: 'natural ones on attack don't provoke AoOs because I don't use critical fumbles". Hm...I hope one of my player's steps in here to let me (and the rest of the internet) know what they think of this. As a side-note, personally, I don't believe that critical fumbles screw with the balance at all. It's good to have something on the opposite spectrum of a twenty, and besides, some of the best times I can recall have been because of a few simultaneous natural ones. ;) I like 'em too, but they screw with people that get extra attacks. Two weapon fighting is bad enough as is. I use them for creatures under 5th level (you're presumably unheroic enough to screw up that royally below 5th).
058 12-18-06, 04:18 PM	With two-weapon fighting or multiple attacks-per-round, you could simply limit the number of critical fumbles per round to one, no matter the number of attacks. Heh. We apply critical failures to skill-checks, as well, which is how we once ended up with the samurai and druid both hanging down a pit, anchored to the edge by the wizard with nine strength and the fighter above having no idea what had just happened. ;)
theotherdraxen 12-18-06, 05:22 PM	With two-weapon fighting or multiple attacks-per-round, you could simply limit the number of critical fumbles per round to one, no matter the number of attacks. I like it, but it still does mean that the warrior types will fumble twice as often as the spellcaster types, even if it's only one fumble that provokes one AoO against just one opponent (who may not take it anyway).
058 12-18-06, 05:40 PM	Why, because casters are in ranged combat as opposed to mêlée?
theotherdraxen 12-18-06, 05:51 PM	Why, because casters are in ranged combat as opposed to mêlée? No. Because warrior-types roll more d20s than casters do. I wish there was some way I could say the AoO thing was a 'heroes only' thing, but I don't think there is a realistic answer.
simplyscribed 12-18-06, 08:40 PM	Thought: You have to roll a 1 on all your attack rolls to critically fumble? For high level characters it would rarely happen, if ever, but when it did it'd be oh-so-memorable. If you wanted them to be a little less rare, say that a 1 is a fumble as long as all other attack rolls made by the character in this turn miss.
SageBahamut 12-19-06, 01:28 AM	Thought: You have to roll a 1 on all your attack rolls to critically fumble? For high level characters it would rarely happen, if ever, but when it did it'd be oh-so-memorable. If you wanted them to be a little less rare, say that a 1 is a fumble as long as all other attack rolls made by the character in this turn miss. I like this. It's always been one of my complaints about the d20 system that a grand-master swordsman has the same 5% chance of critically botching as a first-day student. I'm sorry, but Miyamoto Musashi is not equally likely to drop a sword on his foot as Joe Manshield. Alternatively, you could do critical botches like critical hits - include a roll to confirm. If you swing and roll a nat 1, then swing and miss, you botch. Those funky feats that improve your rolls-to-confirm help you on this roll, too. (Even though it's technically a roll to avoid confirming.)
Keterys 12-20-06, 10:55 AM	Or... just don't worry about it. It can be hero only if it only applies to defense rolls. In this variant, the PCs are rolling it all... monsters never get a defense roll. So, a 20 crits for attacks, and 'crits' for defense. It could give an AoO, stop further attacks, give the monster a penalty (-5 to attacks for 1 round, etc), make the monster fumble... all kinds of possibilities. Only other thing I'd like cleaned up is the '1s become a critical' with extended crit ranges. I think I'd just as soon make it so they don't have extended crit ranges, and just have bigger multipliers (in this system)
theotherdraxen 12-20-06, 06:40 PM	Or... just don't worry about it. It can be hero only if it only applies to defense rolls. In this variant, the PCs are rolling it all... monsters never get a defense roll. Yeah, it's either this or I drop the system. I'll bring it up with them next chance I get (which should be soon). So, a 20 crits for attacks, and 'crits' for defense. It could give an AoO, stop further attacks, give the monster a penalty (-5 to attacks for 1 round, etc), make the monster fumble... all kinds of possibilities. Exactly what I was looking for. Defense Crit possibilites: 1. Provokes AoO 2. Confers 5-foot step 3. 'Clobbers' bad-guy (loses rest of attacks). 4. Fumbles bad guy (loses weapon, falls, etc.) Anyone got any more? Only other thing I'd like cleaned up is the '1s become a critical' with extended crit ranges. I think I'd just as soon make it so they don't have extended crit ranges, and just have bigger multipliers (in this system) Might I ask why?
Keterys 12-20-06, 06:59 PM	Mostly I'm just not a big fan of figuring out 'So, I rolled a 4... does he have improved crit... and it's a longsword, okay... so that's... okay, yeah, possible threat' for hitting yourself :) It's okay, but frankly I think that some players get crit a lot less cause of it and it's more in the theme of the new rule to trigger on 1s :) It's not exactly a big deal or anything.