Initiative II / Casting Time [Archive] - Wizards Community

Initiative II / Casting Time [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Seldriss
08-06-05, 03:29 PM INITIATIVE II / CASTING TIME

In the same logic than the Weapon Speed Factor (Cf. other thread), it is normal to give a initiative modifier to spells.
If not, fighters would jealous of mages ;)
To simplify things, this modifier depends on the spell level.
A first level spell gives a –1 initiative penalty, -2 for a second level spell, -3 for the third, and so on... Zero level spells (cantrips and oraisons) are instant (-0).

The Metamagic feat Rapid Casting still gives the ability to cast a spell instantaneously.

However, in my system, using Spell Points, a character can also reduce his casting time by using more Spell Points. For each higher level cost of his spell, the casting time is reduced by 1. Of course, at a reduction of –4 the effects are the same than for Rapid Casting (and also the cost, +4 levels).

Furthermore, as spellcasting has not much to do with Dexterity, and the fighting actions having the option to receive the Reflex base ST (Cf. Initiative I/Weapons Speed Factor), a similar option is given to spellcasters.
They now can use their Dexterity modifier or their Will base ST, whichever the higher (not both).

Or course, they should also consider the Improved Initiative feat.
As a reminder, even if their spellcasting is longer and might be interrupted, it doesn’t mean the spell will be wasted. If they succeed a Concentration check, they can still cast the spell.

Any Comments ?
Gilean
08-07-05, 10:16 AM Does this apply to the next action the caster is taking?

All in all, these may even work with the initiative each round-variant. And constitute a very minor nerf to casters.

Also, is there a reason for the save substitution? It makes fighters act not-so-soon in combat, which seems strange.
Seldriss
08-07-05, 12:38 PM Does this apply to the next action the caster is taking?

All in all, these may even work with the initiative each round-variant. And constitute a very minor nerf to casters.

Also, is there a reason for the save substitution? It makes fighters act not-so-soon in combat, which seems strange.
The casting time applies to the current spell of the round. It delays the release of the spell, thats all.

Yes, we use the round by round initiative, to make combat more interesting.

The reason is what i just said, to make combats more interesting, less monotonous. I don't like the fixed initiative, without modifier or surprise, like: characters-monsters-characters-monsters-characters-monsters etc...

For fighting characters, they use their weapon speed factor, and their Reflex base ST or Dex modifier, whicherver the higher. Cf other thread, Initiative I/Weapons Speed Factor.
Seldriss
08-10-05, 01:34 PM Any other comment?
Gilean
08-11-05, 03:41 AM So, players first announce actions and they are resolved in the order of initiative, right? What if a mage has equipped weapons?
Seldriss
08-11-05, 08:41 PM Right.
Characters roll for initiative at each round, adding the appropriate modifiers.
For your example, as long the mage isnt fighting with his weapon, he doesnt use the speed factor.

If he is casting a spell, he is using the casting time.
d20 + [Dexmodifier] or [Will base ST] - [spell level]

If he is using a weapon, he is using the weapon speed factor.
d20 + [Dex modifier] or [Reflex base ST] - [weapon speed factor]
(Cf other thread)
Gilean
08-12-05, 07:19 AM I don't think the saving throw is appropriate. BAB is an option, if something needs to be there.
Seldriss
08-12-05, 09:26 AM I don't think the saving throw is appropriate. BAB is an option, if something needs to be there.
The problem with the BAB is that it is serving only fighting characters.
I want a balance between fighters and casters.
BAB is serving fighting classes
REF is serving rogues, bards but is logical for speed, as it is about... well... reflexes.
WILL is a big advantage for casters, as it's mental

So in short, Reflex for combat, and Will for casting/psionics...
Gilean
08-12-05, 10:18 AM Initiative should serve fighters (as in fighting classes). It is about acting fast in combat. In which fighters should be best. Roguish classes tend to have high dexterity, anyway. Mages shouldn't act as fast in combat as that isn't their specialisation.
Seldriss
08-13-05, 08:53 AM So, Gilean, you would keep the Dexterity as a modifier?

Casting Time
d20 + [Dex modifier] - [casting time]
(casting time = -1/spell level)

Combat
d20 + [Dex modifier] - [weapon speed factor]
(weapon speed factor = -1/category)
(unarmed/0, light/-1, 1hand/-2, 2hands/-3)
Gilean
08-13-05, 10:36 AM In D&D, yes. Though you could make a feat or two, like the following with better names

Reflexive reactions [Fighter]
Prerequisites: Improved initiative, wisdom 11, base reflex save +2
Benefits: Character gains half of his base reflex save as a bonus to initiative checks, up to +6.

First strike [Fighter]
Prerequisites: Improved initiative, quick draw, dexterity 13, BAB +4
Benefits: Character gains one fourth of his base attack bonus as a bonus to initiative checks, up to +5.

And, if desired, epic version thereof.
Dunelord
08-13-05, 11:32 AM This means they have to pick there action at the start of each round?
Seldriss
08-13-05, 05:43 PM In D&D, yes. Though you could make a feat or two, like the following with better names

Reflexive reactions [Fighter]
Prerequisites: Improved initiative, wisdom 11, base reflex save +2
Benefits: Character gains half of his base reflex save as a bonus to initiative checks, up to +6.

First strike [Fighter]
Prerequisites: Improved initiative, quick draw, dexterity 13, BAB +4
Benefits: Character gains one fourth of his base attack bonus as a bonus to initiative checks, up to +5.

And, if desired, epic version thereof.
Very good suggestions, Gilean, thank you.
As a matter of fact, i was also considering to add something like that, let's say a Initiative Mastery, or Greater Improved Initiative...
Well, you kind of made it for me ;)
Seldriss
08-13-05, 05:44 PM This means they have to pick there action at the start of each round?
Yes, Dunelord, in my group, we roll for initiative at each round.
And we declare intentions of action/reactions before the round starts.
Dunelord
08-14-05, 05:44 AM Yes, Dunelord, in my group, we roll for initiative at each round.
And we declare intentions of action/reactions before the round starts.

So what happens when your action no longer makes sence? Just for exsample, Will the Wizard is going to cast Magic Missle on the Orc. Andy the Archer is going to take a shot with his bow, and goes first. Andy gets a crit, and the Orc is dead (not just at negatives). What happens to Will?
Seldriss
08-15-05, 10:15 AM Then he can change his actions, which becomes a reaction.
But he might belayed accordingly.
And it makes sense.
Sometimes you start to do something, and before you are done, your action is not necessary anymore, or doesn't apply.
Same for sports, a ball is coming to you, and you plan to throw it back to someone else. Well, the ball might be intercepted before it arrives to you, or the person you planned to throw the ball might be unreachable when you get it.
Planning to make an action doesn't mean you will accomplish it.
If circumstances change, then your actions might change too.
That's why i am talking about actions (have to be declared) and reactions (can be improvised, depending on others actions, but coming later).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Seldriss 08-06-05, 03:29 PM	INITIATIVE II / CASTING TIME In the same logic than the Weapon Speed Factor (Cf. other thread), it is normal to give a initiative modifier to spells. If not, fighters would jealous of mages ;) To simplify things, this modifier depends on the spell level. A first level spell gives a –1 initiative penalty, -2 for a second level spell, -3 for the third, and so on... Zero level spells (cantrips and oraisons) are instant (-0). The Metamagic feat Rapid Casting still gives the ability to cast a spell instantaneously. However, in my system, using Spell Points, a character can also reduce his casting time by using more Spell Points. For each higher level cost of his spell, the casting time is reduced by 1. Of course, at a reduction of –4 the effects are the same than for Rapid Casting (and also the cost, +4 levels). Furthermore, as spellcasting has not much to do with Dexterity, and the fighting actions having the option to receive the Reflex base ST (Cf. Initiative I/Weapons Speed Factor), a similar option is given to spellcasters. They now can use their Dexterity modifier or their Will base ST, whichever the higher (not both). Or course, they should also consider the Improved Initiative feat. As a reminder, even if their spellcasting is longer and might be interrupted, it doesn’t mean the spell will be wasted. If they succeed a Concentration check, they can still cast the spell. Any Comments ?
Gilean 08-07-05, 10:16 AM	Does this apply to the next action the caster is taking? All in all, these may even work with the initiative each round-variant. And constitute a very minor nerf to casters. Also, is there a reason for the save substitution? It makes fighters act not-so-soon in combat, which seems strange.
Seldriss 08-07-05, 12:38 PM	Does this apply to the next action the caster is taking? All in all, these may even work with the initiative each round-variant. And constitute a very minor nerf to casters. Also, is there a reason for the save substitution? It makes fighters act not-so-soon in combat, which seems strange. The casting time applies to the current spell of the round. It delays the release of the spell, thats all. Yes, we use the round by round initiative, to make combat more interesting. The reason is what i just said, to make combats more interesting, less monotonous. I don't like the fixed initiative, without modifier or surprise, like: characters-monsters-characters-monsters-characters-monsters etc... For fighting characters, they use their weapon speed factor, and their Reflex base ST or Dex modifier, whicherver the higher. Cf other thread, Initiative I/Weapons Speed Factor.
Seldriss 08-10-05, 01:34 PM	Any other comment?
Gilean 08-11-05, 03:41 AM	So, players first announce actions and they are resolved in the order of initiative, right? What if a mage has equipped weapons?
Seldriss 08-11-05, 08:41 PM	Right. Characters roll for initiative at each round, adding the appropriate modifiers. For your example, as long the mage isnt fighting with his weapon, he doesnt use the speed factor. If he is casting a spell, he is using the casting time. d20 + [Dexmodifier] or [Will base ST] - [spell level] If he is using a weapon, he is using the weapon speed factor. d20 + [Dex modifier] or [Reflex base ST] - [weapon speed factor] (Cf other thread)
Gilean 08-12-05, 07:19 AM	I don't think the saving throw is appropriate. BAB is an option, if something needs to be there.
Seldriss 08-12-05, 09:26 AM	I don't think the saving throw is appropriate. BAB is an option, if something needs to be there. The problem with the BAB is that it is serving only fighting characters. I want a balance between fighters and casters. BAB is serving fighting classes REF is serving rogues, bards but is logical for speed, as it is about... well... reflexes. WILL is a big advantage for casters, as it's mental So in short, Reflex for combat, and Will for casting/psionics...
Gilean 08-12-05, 10:18 AM	Initiative should serve fighters (as in fighting classes). It is about acting fast in combat. In which fighters should be best. Roguish classes tend to have high dexterity, anyway. Mages shouldn't act as fast in combat as that isn't their specialisation.
Seldriss 08-13-05, 08:53 AM	So, Gilean, you would keep the Dexterity as a modifier? Casting Time d20 + [Dex modifier] - [casting time] (casting time = -1/spell level) Combat d20 + [Dex modifier] - [weapon speed factor] (weapon speed factor = -1/category) (unarmed/0, light/-1, 1hand/-2, 2hands/-3)
Gilean 08-13-05, 10:36 AM	In D&D, yes. Though you could make a feat or two, like the following with better names Reflexive reactions [Fighter] Prerequisites: Improved initiative, wisdom 11, base reflex save +2 Benefits: Character gains half of his base reflex save as a bonus to initiative checks, up to +6. First strike [Fighter] Prerequisites: Improved initiative, quick draw, dexterity 13, BAB +4 Benefits: Character gains one fourth of his base attack bonus as a bonus to initiative checks, up to +5. And, if desired, epic version thereof.
Dunelord 08-13-05, 11:32 AM	This means they have to pick there action at the start of each round?
Seldriss 08-13-05, 05:43 PM	In D&D, yes. Though you could make a feat or two, like the following with better names Reflexive reactions [Fighter] Prerequisites: Improved initiative, wisdom 11, base reflex save +2 Benefits: Character gains half of his base reflex save as a bonus to initiative checks, up to +6. First strike [Fighter] Prerequisites: Improved initiative, quick draw, dexterity 13, BAB +4 Benefits: Character gains one fourth of his base attack bonus as a bonus to initiative checks, up to +5. And, if desired, epic version thereof. Very good suggestions, Gilean, thank you. As a matter of fact, i was also considering to add something like that, let's say a Initiative Mastery, or Greater Improved Initiative... Well, you kind of made it for me ;)
Seldriss 08-13-05, 05:44 PM	This means they have to pick there action at the start of each round? Yes, Dunelord, in my group, we roll for initiative at each round. And we declare intentions of action/reactions before the round starts.
Dunelord 08-14-05, 05:44 AM	Yes, Dunelord, in my group, we roll for initiative at each round. And we declare intentions of action/reactions before the round starts. So what happens when your action no longer makes sence? Just for exsample, Will the Wizard is going to cast Magic Missle on the Orc. Andy the Archer is going to take a shot with his bow, and goes first. Andy gets a crit, and the Orc is dead (not just at negatives). What happens to Will?
Seldriss 08-15-05, 10:15 AM	Then he can change his actions, which becomes a reaction. But he might belayed accordingly. And it makes sense. Sometimes you start to do something, and before you are done, your action is not necessary anymore, or doesn't apply. Same for sports, a ball is coming to you, and you plan to throw it back to someone else. Well, the ball might be intercepted before it arrives to you, or the person you planned to throw the ball might be unreachable when you get it. Planning to make an action doesn't mean you will accomplish it. If circumstances change, then your actions might change too. That's why i am talking about actions (have to be declared) and reactions (can be improvised, depending on others actions, but coming later).