Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NorthSaber 03-19-04, 06:05 PM	I've been reading through Unearthed Arcana and trying to come up with a "simplified" DnD system for players who don't enjoy keeping track of hit points, spell slots, exact skill bonuses, etc. I've looked at the Injury variant (no hit points; you make Fort saves whenever you're wounded to determine severity) and really like it - it's easier to keep track of single hits than to calculate hit points after each attack. The spellpoint system appeals to me because I never liked the "spell slot system", but using spell points would also go against what I'm trying to do here - get rid of tracking points. And that's how I came up with this variant for magic (I call it Spell Strain). After casting a spell, make a Will save with a DC of 15 + spell level. On a success there's no negative effect (and remember, the spell has already succeeded). On a failure, the caster gets a non-lethal hit, as the spell strains her mind and/or body. On a failure of 10 or more, the caster becomes staggered (same as disabled) and will fall unconscious if she further strains herself. In this system (as in the Injury variant), each non-lethal or normal (lethal) hit you have taken will give a -1 penalty to this Will roll; it's much harder to concentrate on channeling magical energies if they've already burnt you recently, or if you have a bleeding gash on the side of your head. In essence, this system combines the "getting exhausted" variant with the Injury variant, and the end result ends up with the least tracking of spells cast / day that I've seen anywhere. It should be noted that this is very similar to the overchanneling rules of the Wheel of Time RPG - in that system the overchanneling is the risky option you can use once you've depleted all your "safe" normal spells per day. In both systems it is possible for a gifted caster to cast unlimited low-level spells (i.e., if the Will save would succeed even with a roll of 1, there's no need to roll). Further variations include 1 being an auto-fail and 1 being an auto-fail by 10. I prefer to use 1s and 20s as per the normal rules for saves - nothing special happens. To clarify, there would be no absolute limit to how many spells you can cast in a day. With lucky rolls, you could literally cast thousands of spells in a single day, while an unlucky roll could end your spellcasting after the first spell. (This is why I also use the Action Point variant, which can be used to improve an unlucky roll.) The only real remaining limit for casters is their list of spells known, and I guess I should mention that I'm also using the generic classes from UA (even divine casters cast all their spells spontaneously and have a limited spell list). Question: do you think it would be better to alter the Will save DC to 10 + (2x Spell Level) instead? The range would then be 10 - 28, instead of 15 - 24... This change would allow beginner casters a better chance of succeeding, and make high level spells appropriately difficult to pull off without severe strain.
RoastSlinky 03-20-04, 01:44 AM	I've been looking for an "unlimited mana" style variant, and I think this one is good concept, though I don't use the injury system. What damage would you reccomend for a normal HP system?
NorthSaber 03-20-04, 05:07 AM	(First, thanks for being the first to reply. I was worried the post was so far from the norm that it scared people away... :D ) I would recommend 1 point of subdual damage per spell level. Note though that in the above system, chance of failure increases every time you fail the Will save, and thus has a built-in security switch to prevent abuse. If you don't use the non-lethal hit system, then there would be no penalty to the Will checks, which might (or might not) unbalance the system. Not that it has been playtested yet or anything. ;) (Edit: if you use the subdual damage idea, note that 0-level spells would be "freebies", which might or might not be a bad thing. The possibility of unlimited 0-level spells is present in the system I presented, as well as in the Wheel of Time overchanneling system, so there is precedent.)
Lina_Inverse 03-20-04, 09:38 AM	i cast CLW,injury healed.continue.in addition youll never fail the save.+10will +2 for feat(its usefull now damnit) +2 for haveing it good in your PrC. +14,i take 10 on all non-combat spells. 3points of subdual?thats it?fireball does 5d6 damage innately....CLWs restores 1d8+1 subdual plus hp at lvl1. remember to tell your pcs any non-primary caster is not a viable pc.and because clerics have good fort and thus even MORE overpowered than normal that when you said primary caster you ment primary divine caster. and one smallll problem,im assumeing its no wizards and spont divines?because with prep this would get out of hand(and of course make sorcs useless):behold:
caeruleus 03-20-04, 01:28 PM	I like the basic idea, but as Lina says, a spellcaster with any sort of healing spell would seem to be unbalancing. Perhaps use a seperate source of energy than vitality? You can still give negatives to the Will saves if the spellcaster is wounded (in addition to negatives if he's got spell strain), but the spell strain would not be affected my any sort of magical healing. (As it says in UA in the section on spell points, spell that give spell points make no sense, because you either break even, loose spell points, or just get spell points for free. A similar thing would apply in your variant.) What do you think of these suggestions? As I said, I like the basic idea, and it would be cool to see it worked out. Draco Caeruleus
Masterful_Norg 03-20-04, 05:49 PM	I like the concept and the idea, though what your talking about here is the ability to use some major low level attack power and then just suddenly fizzle out. This makes casters much less reliable. Its ok when you're using the injury system for HP because everything that lives is effected by it. I prefer the recharge variant because it bars characters from over utilizing spellcasting in short amounts of time at low levels while still allowing a sorceror to cast an average of 2400 spells in a 16 hour day. Obviously you don't want to track rounds in addition to your system because that's what you were trying to get away from. I still think the idea itself is very innovative, but can't help but wonder what it does to the whole ballance of the game. I'll try it though my first feat will obviously be iron will with the plucky trait and wisdom as my second highest ability score. Divine spellcasters sure get a boost to their spells now don't they. Perhaps you should allow a spellcaster to choose the ability score that applies to their will save, so that the divine spellcasters aren't the obvious choice. I will certainly try playing with this system and tell you how it works out, because as I've said and I'll say again, its a very interesting idea and I love the way it and the Injury system seem to gel!
Tywyll 03-20-04, 06:53 PM	I like the idea, a lot. It makes me think of Ars Magica (best... magic system... evar!). However, I do agree that it puts a /lot/ of power into spell caster hands, as written. Couple of ideas: Non-spellcasters be allowed to Gestalt. Reasoning that in this world, spell casting is so potent and difficult to master, that 'normal' pursuits would be much simpler and could be doubled up. I don't know if this would /actually/ balance things or what, but it would give incentive to play non-casters alongside these powered up casters. However, you would strictly have to limit those characters to non-casters, or only allow Pure Casters to benefit from this system (ie Paladins and Rangers cast spells normally). Instead of making it be a Saving Throw, perhaps a level check, with their Con bonus added? That way, its not a casting stat so no class gets a better casting ability. If you do this, definately make the base save 10+. You could even make feats that give +2 to caster checks (perhaps a replacement for Spell Casting Prodigy). You could also have items to give bonus to casting (and +1 Caster Level Domain powers would be a double benefit). Vary the save difficulty of spells by duration: Instant and 1rnd/lvl=10+(1xSL) 1 min/lvl = 10+(2 x sl) 10 min/lvl = 10+(3 x sl) 1 hour/lvl= 10 +(4xsl... though this might be a bit much) My biggest concern with the system is healing spells and buffs. There needs to be a way to limit the number of those they could stack on people, and there needs to be a way to keep a caster from casting CLW a million times after each fight. However, I really think the idea has a /lot/ of merit. This will make
ids the bum 03-20-04, 08:12 PM	Personally, I think this is a great idea. And, in answer to the whole question about healing spells... who needs em? the heal skill should be used to help people get back into proper health. Yeah it can't do that now, but it's already underpowered and I think this would be a good way to use it. Also, I like the idea of a level check, but con still shouldn't be used because it will make some spellcasters better at the same level than others. Finally, this makes hi-level spellcasters not as broken as they inherently are even with spell points, since they are less likely to be able to cast something like delayed blast fireball five times into a creature's mouth when it's been open/closed as per the spell or something like that.
Lina_Inverse 03-20-04, 08:29 PM	casters dont use nukes,they cast save or die.no intelligent caster(you know they do use mental stats)will ever cast delayed blast fireball when a save or die is a better spell. and heal may be underpowered,but makeing it the godskill is overpowered.and removeing healing from magic...just...dumb... theres still lay on hands.and why is it a paladin/bard can cast as many spells as a bloody sorcerer under this system :rolleyes: you still havent fixed the prep problem either.
Tywyll 03-20-04, 09:05 PM	Also, I like the idea of a level check, but con still shouldn't be used because it will make some spellcasters better at the same level than others. Casters with higher stats are already better casters than others of equal levels. That's kind of silly reasoning for not using the stat as a bonus. Humm... the partial casters. That's an interesting point. However, as I suggested, you either drop partial casters all together with this system, or you make their spells work the normal fashion. Bards are interesting... perhaps increase their base casting DC?
NorthSaber 03-22-04, 03:05 AM	Thanks for the help guys! First subject - healing: Didn't occur to me - good thing I posted here. ^_^ I would tend to say that there would either be a separate spell for healing spell strain, or that it couldn't be healed magically at all (requiring rest, which was the intended effect). Second subject - endless spells: I ran some simulations and this doesn't seem to be a problem. A high level caster can eventually cast unlimited low level spells (with the wider DC variance, Will save +10 will allow unlimited 0-level spells), but most of the time the caster will be required to cast his best spells in combat, and the chances are this will result in at least a few failures, putting even the most simple spells out of the "safe range". Playtesting will prove (or disprove) this, but provided that some of the more abusive save bonus special abilities are restricted (Paladin save bonus, Mysticism domain, etc), it should remain in control. About Iron Will: I realize this, and there's two ways of looking at it. One) all spellcasters should have Iron Will, just like all Aes Sedai of the Wheel of Time series are serene, ageless, and in control of their emotions. Two) Iron Will - and perhaps the other save bonus feats - should be removed, and thus not available for abuse. This would be somewhat unfair to the other classes though. Using recharge times: I read the variant and liked it, but A) as you said I'd have to keep track of the recharge times, and B) I find the huge table of unique/exceptional recharge times very unwieldy. I want something generic. I fully intend to use the "no +2 good save bump" for multi-classing variant, which means that you can't get a higher base will save than taking straight cleric, for instance. Also my intention was to use the generic classes (sorry if I didn't mention that), which means that all casters are spontaneous casters by nature. This will also get rid of many of the unusual class abilities that are spell-like in nature (although I may append some of those to be available as feats). Fireball vs. SoD: when the enemy will automatically make the save and you know he doesn't have A) Evasion or B) fire resistance/immunity, a DB Fireball may actually be the better choice. Most of the time I agree with you though. About using a Con check/save instead: I thought about that, especially because the Injury system works on Fort saves. However, I thought that it is the strength of Will that spellcasters need, and personally I wouldn't mind seeing more wise mages. Also note that Wisdom helps you save against enemy spells - it doesn't seem a stretch to connect to your own spell strain as well. Because I'll be using the generic spellcaster variant from UA, (and unless I make additional changes to the class,) I expect everyone to make a divine caster - Wisdom will be their primary stat, it will help them avoid Spell Strain, and they get to pick any spell from the cleric, druid and sorcerer/wizard spell lists. (I'm contemplating a change to this where you could either be a "Wilder" which would work as above, a "Priest" which would limit you to cleric/druid spells but get you extra spells known, and a "Mage" which would limit you to wiz/sorc spells but also get you extra spells known. We'll see what I'd do about the casting stat though.) Please keep posting your opinions - I think we can make this work if we work together. I realize some of you won't be using the generic classes so we should probably think about possible caveats and variants for using the core classes (although removing the possibility of healing Spell Strain removes most of the problems mentioned so far). I'll go back and look at how Wheel of Time does it (I remember they use two mental stats and the bonuses stack), and see if something similar should be used here. (PS: I'm not sure if I mentioned this yet, but I'm also thinking about using Ref saves as a "Class Defense" bonus, as per the variant in UA. This way Fort would determine your effective hit points, Will would determine your effective spells/day, and Ref would determine your armor class, unless you're wearing heavier armor.) (Edit: I thought about it, and I'm going to use all three mental stats for the generic spellcasters. Wisdom helps with the Spell Strain checks; Intelligence will give additional spells known as per the "bonus spells" chart in the PHB; and Charisma will govern the spell DCs. This intentionally makes spellcasters weaker, as I think they are too powerful compared to the non-caster classes - but this is just my personal opinion.)
Lina_Inverse 03-22-04, 11:36 AM	with generic classes seems decently balenced,beyond the already noted problems. first off,if there all spont thats a BIG kick in the pants to casters.this means no one will ever learn delayed blast fireball so super fort save monsters just arent useable(and in injury they arent anyways cause they cant die ><)if every monster has a super fort save then the fighters couldnt hurt them and the casters couldnt swap spells for something that can. spell strain should be tracked seprately but if it knocks you out treat it as subdual.id like to note that any OOC will be spam casted,simply because you can take 10.dont expcet injurys to last more than 1 fight. do not offer them more spells known for sticking to the druid/cleric list or wizard since druid/cleric is a waayyyy better list.
Tywyll 03-22-04, 11:47 AM	(Edit: I thought about it, and I'm going to use all three mental stats for the generic spellcasters. Wisdom helps with the Spell Strain checks; Intelligence will give additional spells known as per the "bonus spells" chart in the PHB; and Charisma will govern the spell DCs. This intentionally makes spellcasters weaker, as I think they are too powerful compared to the non-caster classes - but this is just my personal opinion.) Interesting idea. While yes, it will make them weaker than 'standard' casters, I think it will actually go a step towards balancing them against non-casters who need Strength for hitting and damage, dex for init, ref, and dodge, and con for hit points and fort. Might not be a bad idea.
stone_dog 03-22-04, 12:40 PM	Originally posted by Tywyll (Edit: I thought about it, and I'm going to use all three mental stats for the generic spellcasters. Wisdom helps with the Spell Strain checks; Intelligence will give additional spells known as per the "bonus spells" chart in the PHB; and Charisma will govern the spell DCs. This intentionally makes spellcasters weaker, as I think they are too powerful compared to the non-caster classes - but this is just my personal opinion.) I love this idea. It sounds great for a dark/low fantasy warhammer sort of feel. Nice thought.
NorthSaber 03-22-04, 10:05 PM	Originally posted by Lina_Inverse first off,if there all spont thats a BIG kick in the pants to casters.this means no one will ever learn delayed blast fireball I haven't decided yet whether I'm going to allow PCs to choose freely from the lists or whether I'm going to limit their choices. The group that is most likely to play with these rules has not played DnD before, which allows me to get rid of some of the "holy cow" spells like Magic Missile, Fireball, Haste and Harm, among others. We'll see. spell strain should be tracked seprately but if it knocks you out treat it as subdual.id like to note that any OOC will be spam casted,simply because you can take 10.dont expcet injurys to last more than 1 fight. Why would someone be able to take 10 on a save? If we were talking about a Concentration check, I'd agree. However, for a Will save he'd have to always roll. Also note that if a caster goes unconscious because of spellcasting, she will remain so for at least an hour (unless the shorter timespan natural recovery variant is used). do not offer them more spells known for sticking to the druid/cleric list or wizard since druid/cleric is a waayyyy better list. I don't agree with you here. Although clerics in general are superior to wizards (IMO), there are many powerful spells in the wiz/sorc list that are not available to clerics or druids: Teleport, Invisibility, Identify, True Strike, Silent Image, Shield, Glitterdust, Alter Self, Haste, Fly, Stoneskin, Polymorph... the list goes on and on. Although some of those spells may be accessible through domains, I'm keeping a close eye on available domains - no "godless" clerics in my campaign.
Veton 03-22-04, 10:08 PM	It sounds good to me. However, I noticed that the DC will never go beyond 27. Once you start getting to high levels, a Will save of DC 27 won't be too hard to make. I'd suggest making it scale somehow.
Lina_Inverse 03-22-04, 10:12 PM	nor is DC11? hard to make at lvl1. oooo i like the attributes very nice.may i suggest experts getting bonus feats every odd level,this should put everyone at near balenced. haste isnt so bad now,fireball needs removeing?magic missile is good but nessasary at low levels.harm i can see being dropped.but then heal needs it too. you could nuke ALL instant kill in that place except PWK and perhaps moveing disentagrate to 8th.well circle of death/cloudkill are ok i say.
NorthSaber 03-22-04, 11:47 PM	Originally posted by Veton It sounds good to me. However, I noticed that the DC will never go beyond 27. Once you start getting to high levels, a Will save of DC 27 won't be too hard to make. I'd suggest making it scale somehow. The best base Will save bonus attainable by level 20 is +12 (as per the UA "no +2 good save bump for multi-classing" variant), which means the character would have to get some pretty hefty bonuses to reach very high saves, especially considering most casters will have to divide their attention between the three mental stats. Also, I'm leaning towards the second DC calculation method: 10 + 2x spell level. For 0 level spells the DC would then be 10, and for 9th level spells the DC would be 28. So here's the different DC calculations: SLVL OLD NEW 0 15 10 1 16 12 2 17 14 3 18 16 4 19 18 5 20 20 6 21 22 7 22 24 8 23 26 9 24 28 The second DC progression makes the spell level more important, allows low-level spells to be cast with more ease, and makes high-level spells more difficult to cast. It is unlikely any non-epic character will be able to cast 9th level spells with virtually no risk of Spell Strain. The reason why I like the second one better is that low-level casters have a better chance of succeeding with their spells. It would be quite sad for a 1st level caster (with Will save of perhaps +3 or +4) to have only a 50% chance of casting a 0-level spell without Spell Strain; with the second system his chance increases to 70%.
Veton 03-23-04, 10:58 AM	Originally posted by NorthSaber The best base Will save bonus attainable by level 20 is +12 (as per the UA "no +2 good save bump for multi-classing" variant), which means the character would have to get some pretty hefty bonuses to reach very high saves, especially considering most casters will have to divide their attention between the three mental stats. Well, I actually meant DC 23, I did my math wrong. But my point was that the Injury system scales with levels because you can do more damage at higher levels, but the DC will never go up for this system.
NorthSaber 03-23-04, 02:56 PM	Originally posted by Veton Well, I actually meant DC 23, I did my math wrong. But my point was that the Injury system scales with levels because you can do more damage at higher levels, but the DC will never go up for this system. That's true... I'm just thinking out loud here but what if the save DC was 10 + caster level + spell level? For spells with variable effects (such as Fireball) or variable durations (such as Shield) the caster could choose what caster level they use, up to a maximum of their actual caster level. (Spells that don't vary sufficiently with caster level would always be cast at full caster level.) For example, a 10th level wizard could cast a Fireball at full 10d6 and full range, but the DC would be 10 + 10 + 3 = 23. If he didn't care so much for the power, he could cast it at caster level 5, which would reduce the damage to 5d6 but also reduce the DC to 18. Benefits: - more flexibility for casters - high end save DCs would get high enough to be really challenging (20th level caster with 9th level spell would have DC 39) Disadvantages: - all DCs will be higher with this system Perhaps the formula should be 5 + caster level + spell level... Here are the DCs assuming minimum possible caster level for a sorcerer: SLVL OLD NEW LATEST 0 15 10 6 1 16 12 7 2 17 14 11 3 18 16 14 4 19 18 17 5 20 20 20 6 21 22 23 7 22 24 26 8 23 26 29 9 24 28 32 The DCs at the lower end are really easy, but only when the minimum caster level is used. Note that a 20th level caster who wanted to cast Shield with a duration of 20 minutes would still have a save DC of 5 + 20 + 1 = 26. The DCs pivot at 5th level spells - as in the systems before - making higher level spells difficult to cast. However, now a character that hasn't tweaked his Will save might get into trouble at high levels. A 18th level sorcerer who gains access to 9th level spells would face a Spell Strain DC of 32, and would only gain a +12 base Will save bonus. Even with a +5 Cloak of Resistance, he'd need a Wisdom of 18 to have a 50% chance of making the save. Then again, that would only give him a Spell Strain "non-lethal hit" - the spell would still succeed. And considering the amount of gold (and the use of Owl's Wisdom), the above set-up would actually be fairly standard. What do you guys think? DC 5 + clvl + slvl?
AstroBryGuy 03-23-04, 03:40 PM	Originally posted by NorthSaber That's true... I'm just thinking out loud here but what if the save DC was 10 + caster level + spell level? For spells with variable effects (such as Fireball) or variable durations (such as Shield) the caster could choose what caster level they use, up to a maximum of their actual caster level. (Spells that don't vary sufficiently with caster level would always be cast at full caster level.) A slight problem: If you require that the full caster level be used for spells without caster level-variable effects, then the Strain DC for those spells goes up 1 per caster level, but Will save does not go up that fast. Therefore, spells without caster level-based effects are harder for higher level casters to cast without Strain than for lower-level casters.
NorthSaber 03-23-04, 06:10 PM	Originally posted by AstroBryGuy A slight problem: If you require that the full caster level be used for spells without caster level-variable effects, then the Strain DC for those spells goes up 1 per caster level, but Will save does not go up that fast. Therefore, spells without caster level-based effects are harder for higher level casters to cast without Strain than for lower-level casters. But if full clvl isn't required, spellcasters will always cast them at minimum clvl. Most spells would always be cast at full clvl due to increased damage, SR check, area effect, range, etc. Only when the spellcaster already has considerable Spell Strain (or when facing inferior foes) would she use a lower clvl spell voluntarily. I guess a simplification would be to use the DCs in the chart above as hard DCs that don't scale after 9th level spells have been reached. Incidentally, I never plan to run or play in an epic-level DnD game, so to me those high level DCs don't matter so much. Still, it would be nice to come up with an "Unlimited Mana" system for DnD that works for all levels of play. Edit: something you said AstroBryGuy sparked an idea. Most spellcasters gain a new spell level once every 2 character levels (starting at level 3 for most, but at level 4 for generic spellcasters and sorcerers), and the good save progression (Will for spellcasters) also goes up by one every 2 character levels. However, higher level characters consistently get better stats, enhancement spells and magical items to boost their saves. So, do we want the difficulty of casting the best spells be the same or should it become easier later on? In other words, should it be just as hard for an 18th level sorcerer to cast a 9th level spell as a 4th level sorcerer to cast a 2nd level spell? If you answer yes, then the DC has to go up faster than the Will save. Due to the above items (better stats, enhancement spells, magic items), higher level characters have relatively higher saves. If you answer no, then a smooth, non-scaling DC system is fine. Here are the three proposed DC systems combined with base Will saves and reasonable total Will saves: SLVL OLD NEW LATEST WILL TOTAL 0 15 10 6 2 3 1 16 12 7 2 3 2 17 14 11 4 6 3 18 16 14 5 8 4 19 18 17 6 10 5 20 20 20 7 12 6 21 22 23 8 14 7 22 24 26 9 16 8 23 26 29 10 18 9 24 28 32 11 20 So for an 18th level caster, I'm assuming a total of +9 additional bonuses to the Will save, such as level-based Wisdom increases, Owl's Wisdom, Iron Will, Cloak of Resistance, etc. As we can see, the total will save bonus will always be behind the Spell Strain DC regardless of which DC system we use. However, the "old" DC system favors high level casters quite heavily, while the "latest" DC system places the favor in the low level casters' side. At this point we have to ask ourselves, do we want to make casting those 9th level spells easy because the spellcaster already has such amazing skill and power, or do we want to make casting them difficult to maintain campaign balance and keep those spells mysterious and dangerous to attempt?
Etiquette_Gnome 04-12-04, 01:30 AM	because this is a worthy concept to be on the first page for at least a day... :bump:
Masterful_Norg 04-12-04, 05:05 AM	For the answer to your question, North Saber, I believe a DC of 32 is too high for a 9th level spell. If failure on a spell strain save by 10 or more did not cause one to fall unconscious emediately and only gave another hit then the spell save DC 32 would be perfect. That would establish a minimum of 10 spells at least and no chance of an unconscious spellcaster after the first round. 1st level wizard-"I cast prestidigitation..." DM-"You are completely exhausted and without another step fall into a vulnerable unconscious state." Fighter-"The rogue gets to carry him this time." This could supplement the recharge magic variant in this way. You must wait a number of rounds equal to the amount by which you failed a spell strain save before you can cast any spell again.
Thane of Eurmal 04-13-04, 03:35 AM	Great thread. Reminds me of my old spell point system in High School! Two thoughts: 1. In our campaign, when rolling anything but Attacks, a '1' counts as -5 and a '20' counts as 25. This allows a character a chance to do something herioc (but not impossible), and gives a chance to mess up even a pretty easy job. But if the DC is 10 and you have a +15, it's automatic. Use this for your Spell Check system and you have, with the New table, a need for +15 Will save to cast for free. 2. Use Strength damage, like GURPS does. If you fail the Spell Check, take (Spell Level) in Strength damage (minimum 1), recoverable at 1 point per hour. If you miss by 10 or more, also take 1 Constitution damage (normal - comes back in a day). This makes the damage much more serious, and with the first point, makes casting a limited proposition. If you increase the Spell Check DC by amount of Strength damage taken, the caster slowly wears down (or quickly, with high-level spells). And probably can't use Lesser Restoration to help out, since, by that point, they'll be missing the Spell Check for LR too. There'd be a much bigger market for Potions of Lesser Restoration, though... :D <- Timmy, seller of Potions