Iron Heroes Variants... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Iron Heroes Variants... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JohnSnow
07-01-05, 06:24 PM As some of you have heard, Malhavoc Press is releasing another variant Player's Handbook in August entitled Iron Heroes. The premise is that the character is defined by his abilities, not the gear he carries. So Conan is still Conan wearing a loincloth and armed with any old sword. Cool premise IMO.

Anyway, the designer (Mike Mearls, who now works for WotC) used at least one variant from Unearthed Arcana - Reserve Points. He also implemented armor DR rules and Class Defense Bonuses. And re-wrote the magic system, part of the feat system and some of the skill system. There's also a few new mechanics.

So, I want to get people's take on these "variants." I'll summarize the ones I know of.

Armor as DR - In Iron Heroes, armor provides DR rather than adding to AC. But armor has a variable, rather than static DR. So leather is, for example DR 1d2. Obviously, we don't have all the numbers but this looks REALLY cool.

Defense Bonuses - Characters get a class bonus to Defense. Defense (rather than "AC") appears to have 2 categories, Passive and Active. I would guess that Passive Defense is the 10 + whatever else doesn't come from you. Active is anything you do to add to defense (incl. your Dex bonus). If you're flat-footed, you lose your active bonus to defense (yes, this includes your class defense bonus). :eek:

Reserve Points - This is the rule straight out of UA. While I understand it, think it's good for balance reasons, and think it's neat, I'm having trouble finding an "in-game" reason for it. Anybody else use this one can give me a suggestion, I'd like to hear it.

Feat Mastery - a re-categorizing of feats to mostly eliminate prerequisites and add some real "high-level" feats. I think this is probably the best thing EVER to happen to fighters.

Skill Groups - Each class gets a couple (or more) skill groups (2 or 3 skills per group) that encourage them to spend their skill points on skills that fit the class concept. Effectively, this makes class skills half (or 1/3) as expensive rather than making cross class skills twice as expensive. However, the bookkeeping is less tedious.

Mearls also introduces stunts and challenges to make combat more dynamic. Finally, there's a new mechanic called tokens...but I won't get into those now.

So what does everyone think of this system? I know I'm planning to check it out, and pieces of it will probably be swiped for ANY D&D game I run from here on out.

But then, I tend to prefer character power to item power...although I doubt I'm the only one.

Thoughts?
Kintara
07-01-05, 07:07 PM I think you might've seen me pimping this book a little, myself. I'm getting really excited about this book.

Defense Bonus/DR - It's always bothered me that Attack has been modeled to improve with levels, but AC is "Armor Class," and is well named, as it's mostly an indicator of equipment. I never really liked the UA variant for Defense bonuses in D&D because I just don't think it meshes well with the loot heavy, equipment bling style of character advancement that D&D represents. IH solves the "bling" problem, and just makes class defense fit.

I also like the DR as dice mechanic. DR has always bothered me because it always feels reliable, reliably difficult to overcome, or reliably minor. Making it a dice mechanic will make DR more dynamic. Also, it makes using armor as DR more compatable with low damage weapons, like daggers.

Speaking of equipment, one great thing about making equipment less of a big deal is that it makes certain tactics a lot more fun and viable. It makes Sundering a lot more worthwile, for instance. Sundering, or losing a weapon in some other way, is a very common tactic/situation in high action adventures. People are constantly losing their weapons, and improvising new ones on the fly.

Actually, one thing that I'm kind of psyched about is a system that isn't coming out in the initial book, Zones. The playtest reports always seem to rave about it, and I find the concept very appealing. I'll probably have to jury-rig something while I wait for Mastering Iron Heroes to come out.

Reserve Points - They make as much sense to me as HP do. In fact, adding the reserve mechanic makes more sense to me, as it models the idea that HP isn't simply a measure of physical damage. It also measures your endurance, ability to take a hit with out it hurting you as much, etc.. When you're losing your reserve points, you're still fresh and have enough energy to take your blows skillfully. Think of reserve points as endurance you spend in combat avoiding the worst blows. Once you run out, you start getting tired and bloody.

Ah, and now he's working at Wizards, eh? Hmm, I wonder what they're going to put him on?
JohnSnow
07-01-05, 07:56 PM Defense Bonus/DR - It's always bothered me that Attack has been modeled to improve with levels, but AC is "Armor Class," and is well named, as it's mostly an indicator of equipment. I never really liked the UA variant for Defense bonuses in D&D because I just don't think it meshes well with the loot heavy, equipment bling style of character advancement that D&D represents. IH solves the "bling" problem, and just makes class defense fit.

I agree totally. And it renders hit points less "hand-wavey" in a sense. Hit points are the ability to make a hit less severe. NOT the ability to not be hit at all. In my mind, it makes describing the action easier for the DM. I even think that making natural armor add to defense (rather than providing DR) is logical, in addition to being a nice favor to DMs.;)

I also like the DR as dice mechanic. DR has always bothered me because it always feels reliable, reliably difficult to overcome, or reliably minor. Making it a dice mechanic will make DR more dynamic. Also, it makes using armor as DR more compatable with low damage weapons, like daggers.

Agreed totally. This makes armor work the way armor should. And it allows for the dagger to be slipped into armor. It's also one more area for cool feats and class abilities to contribute. On both the attack and defense sides. That's pretty neat.

Speaking of equipment, one great thing about making equipment less of a big deal is that it makes certain tactics a lot more fun and viable. It makes Sundering a lot more worthwile, for instance. Sundering, or losing a weapon in some other way, is a very common tactic/situation in high action adventures. People are constantly losing their weapons, and improvising new ones on the fly.

I love diminishing the importance of gear for all kinds of reasons. Ditching the "christmas tree effect" is a big one. What you mention above is another. I mean, isn't Conan still Conan with a borrowed sword? Isn't Maximus Decimus Meridius still a great warrior in borrowed armor and fighting with a gladiator's weapons?

I also love that Mike realized what magic ADDS to the game and is giving us new toys to play with, rather than just taking the magical toys away.

Actually, one thing that I'm kind of psyched about is a system that isn't coming out in the initial book, Zones. The playtest reports always seem to rave about it, and I find the concept very appealing. I'll probably have to jury-rig something while I wait for Mastering Iron Heroes to come out.

Yeah, I'm thrilled and fascinated by Zones too, but I didn't want to overwhelm everyone who hasn't seen all the stuff about this book like I (and obviously you) have!

From what I'm seeing, it looks like zones are being set up as areas where the PCs can trigger little effects. I read about things like chandeliers, burning pools of oil, crumbling walls, flipping over tables, yanking carpets out from under people and I just get goosebumps. This is another example of getting more toys to play with. Both as a player thinking about using them and my DM side dreaming up ways to encourage swashbuckling combat...:schemes:

Reserve Points - They make as much sense to me as HP do. In fact, adding the reserve mechanic makes more sense to me, as it models the idea that HP isn't simply a measure of physical damage. It also measures your endurance, ability to take a hit with out it hurting you as much, etc.. When you're losing your reserve points, you're still fresh and have enough energy to take your blows skillfully. Think of reserve points as endurance you spend in combat avoiding the worst blows. Once you run out, you start getting tired and bloody.

Yeah...I guess. But reserve points can take you out of a fight, and in theory you could be knocked to -1 reserve points and have the chance to either a) bleed to death, or b) recover and be right as rain a few minutes or an hour later. That's okay...but a little more disjunctive than hit points (the damage to which at least doesn't just "go away"). Especially with the Defense Bonus making hit points LESS handwavey.

See the problem?

Ah, and now he's working at Wizards, eh? Hmm, I wonder what they're going to put him on?

4e probably. :rofl:

Just kidding. If we're lucky, they'll let him do some work on things that will complement his Iron Heroes efforts. I know that there's at least SOME interest inside Wizards in similar products.

On the other hand, they could easily use the Zone stuff from Iron Heroes in some kind of "Pulp Adventure Handbook" for Eberron. I'll be interested to see what the first product is out of WotC with Mike's name on it.
Kintara
08-06-05, 11:41 PM I have it. And it is Good.
Gilean
08-07-05, 09:23 AM Would you elaborate on the zones? They seem worth the trouble. Or offer a link.
Kintara
08-07-05, 12:57 PM Would you elaborate on the zones? They seem worth the trouble. Or offer a link.Hmm, as I said, the Zone system is in Mastering Iron Heroes, but you can look at the playest reports, here (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_IL). They can probably give you a better idea than I could. He also talks about it elsewhere, but I can't remember exactly where.
Szatany
08-07-05, 04:03 PM I have read more than half of the book now and I must say its great. I'm not going to DM it thou but thats because I'm about to start WoW campaign. I will however most certainly be using some rules from IH, namely:

- new uses for skills

- knowledge as one skill with buyable areas of expertise (and I'm going to expand it to craft and perform as well)

- skill challenges

- ability strains

- perhaps stunts, but didn't read them yet (they sound interesting thou).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JohnSnow 07-01-05, 06:24 PM	As some of you have heard, Malhavoc Press is releasing another variant Player's Handbook in August entitled Iron Heroes. The premise is that the character is defined by his abilities, not the gear he carries. So Conan is still Conan wearing a loincloth and armed with any old sword. Cool premise IMO. Anyway, the designer (Mike Mearls, who now works for WotC) used at least one variant from Unearthed Arcana - Reserve Points. He also implemented armor DR rules and Class Defense Bonuses. And re-wrote the magic system, part of the feat system and some of the skill system. There's also a few new mechanics. So, I want to get people's take on these "variants." I'll summarize the ones I know of. Armor as DR - In Iron Heroes, armor provides DR rather than adding to AC. But armor has a variable, rather than static DR. So leather is, for example DR 1d2. Obviously, we don't have all the numbers but this looks REALLY cool. Defense Bonuses - Characters get a class bonus to Defense. Defense (rather than "AC") appears to have 2 categories, Passive and Active. I would guess that Passive Defense is the 10 + whatever else doesn't come from you. Active is anything you do to add to defense (incl. your Dex bonus). If you're flat-footed, you lose your active bonus to defense (yes, this includes your class defense bonus). :eek: Reserve Points - This is the rule straight out of UA. While I understand it, think it's good for balance reasons, and think it's neat, I'm having trouble finding an "in-game" reason for it. Anybody else use this one can give me a suggestion, I'd like to hear it. Feat Mastery - a re-categorizing of feats to mostly eliminate prerequisites and add some real "high-level" feats. I think this is probably the best thing EVER to happen to fighters. Skill Groups - Each class gets a couple (or more) skill groups (2 or 3 skills per group) that encourage them to spend their skill points on skills that fit the class concept. Effectively, this makes class skills half (or 1/3) as expensive rather than making cross class skills twice as expensive. However, the bookkeeping is less tedious. Mearls also introduces stunts and challenges to make combat more dynamic. Finally, there's a new mechanic called tokens...but I won't get into those now. So what does everyone think of this system? I know I'm planning to check it out, and pieces of it will probably be swiped for ANY D&D game I run from here on out. But then, I tend to prefer character power to item power...although I doubt I'm the only one. Thoughts?
Kintara 07-01-05, 07:07 PM	I think you might've seen me pimping this book a little, myself. I'm getting really excited about this book. Defense Bonus/DR - It's always bothered me that Attack has been modeled to improve with levels, but AC is "Armor Class," and is well named, as it's mostly an indicator of equipment. I never really liked the UA variant for Defense bonuses in D&D because I just don't think it meshes well with the loot heavy, equipment bling style of character advancement that D&D represents. IH solves the "bling" problem, and just makes class defense fit. I also like the DR as dice mechanic. DR has always bothered me because it always feels reliable, reliably difficult to overcome, or reliably minor. Making it a dice mechanic will make DR more dynamic. Also, it makes using armor as DR more compatable with low damage weapons, like daggers. Speaking of equipment, one great thing about making equipment less of a big deal is that it makes certain tactics a lot more fun and viable. It makes Sundering a lot more worthwile, for instance. Sundering, or losing a weapon in some other way, is a very common tactic/situation in high action adventures. People are constantly losing their weapons, and improvising new ones on the fly. Actually, one thing that I'm kind of psyched about is a system that isn't coming out in the initial book, Zones. The playtest reports always seem to rave about it, and I find the concept very appealing. I'll probably have to jury-rig something while I wait for Mastering Iron Heroes to come out. Reserve Points - They make as much sense to me as HP do. In fact, adding the reserve mechanic makes more sense to me, as it models the idea that HP isn't simply a measure of physical damage. It also measures your endurance, ability to take a hit with out it hurting you as much, etc.. When you're losing your reserve points, you're still fresh and have enough energy to take your blows skillfully. Think of reserve points as endurance you spend in combat avoiding the worst blows. Once you run out, you start getting tired and bloody. Ah, and now he's working at Wizards, eh? Hmm, I wonder what they're going to put him on?
JohnSnow 07-01-05, 07:56 PM	Defense Bonus/DR - It's always bothered me that Attack has been modeled to improve with levels, but AC is "Armor Class," and is well named, as it's mostly an indicator of equipment. I never really liked the UA variant for Defense bonuses in D&D because I just don't think it meshes well with the loot heavy, equipment bling style of character advancement that D&D represents. IH solves the "bling" problem, and just makes class defense fit. I agree totally. And it renders hit points less "hand-wavey" in a sense. Hit points are the ability to make a hit less severe. NOT the ability to not be hit at all. In my mind, it makes describing the action easier for the DM. I even think that making natural armor add to defense (rather than providing DR) is logical, in addition to being a nice favor to DMs.;) I also like the DR as dice mechanic. DR has always bothered me because it always feels reliable, reliably difficult to overcome, or reliably minor. Making it a dice mechanic will make DR more dynamic. Also, it makes using armor as DR more compatable with low damage weapons, like daggers. Agreed totally. This makes armor work the way armor should. And it allows for the dagger to be slipped into armor. It's also one more area for cool feats and class abilities to contribute. On both the attack and defense sides. That's pretty neat. Speaking of equipment, one great thing about making equipment less of a big deal is that it makes certain tactics a lot more fun and viable. It makes Sundering a lot more worthwile, for instance. Sundering, or losing a weapon in some other way, is a very common tactic/situation in high action adventures. People are constantly losing their weapons, and improvising new ones on the fly. I love diminishing the importance of gear for all kinds of reasons. Ditching the "christmas tree effect" is a big one. What you mention above is another. I mean, isn't Conan still Conan with a borrowed sword? Isn't Maximus Decimus Meridius still a great warrior in borrowed armor and fighting with a gladiator's weapons? I also love that Mike realized what magic ADDS to the game and is giving us new toys to play with, rather than just taking the magical toys away. Actually, one thing that I'm kind of psyched about is a system that isn't coming out in the initial book, Zones. The playtest reports always seem to rave about it, and I find the concept very appealing. I'll probably have to jury-rig something while I wait for Mastering Iron Heroes to come out. Yeah, I'm thrilled and fascinated by Zones too, but I didn't want to overwhelm everyone who hasn't seen all the stuff about this book like I (and obviously you) have! From what I'm seeing, it looks like zones are being set up as areas where the PCs can trigger little effects. I read about things like chandeliers, burning pools of oil, crumbling walls, flipping over tables, yanking carpets out from under people and I just get goosebumps. This is another example of getting more toys to play with. Both as a player thinking about using them and my DM side dreaming up ways to encourage swashbuckling combat...:schemes: Reserve Points - They make as much sense to me as HP do. In fact, adding the reserve mechanic makes more sense to me, as it models the idea that HP isn't simply a measure of physical damage. It also measures your endurance, ability to take a hit with out it hurting you as much, etc.. When you're losing your reserve points, you're still fresh and have enough energy to take your blows skillfully. Think of reserve points as endurance you spend in combat avoiding the worst blows. Once you run out, you start getting tired and bloody. Yeah...I guess. But reserve points can take you out of a fight, and in theory you could be knocked to -1 reserve points and have the chance to either a) bleed to death, or b) recover and be right as rain a few minutes or an hour later. That's okay...but a little more disjunctive than hit points (the damage to which at least doesn't just "go away"). Especially with the Defense Bonus making hit points LESS handwavey. See the problem? Ah, and now he's working at Wizards, eh? Hmm, I wonder what they're going to put him on? 4e probably. :rofl: Just kidding. If we're lucky, they'll let him do some work on things that will complement his Iron Heroes efforts. I know that there's at least SOME interest inside Wizards in similar products. On the other hand, they could easily use the Zone stuff from Iron Heroes in some kind of "Pulp Adventure Handbook" for Eberron. I'll be interested to see what the first product is out of WotC with Mike's name on it.
Kintara 08-06-05, 11:41 PM	I have it. And it is Good.
Gilean 08-07-05, 09:23 AM	Would you elaborate on the zones? They seem worth the trouble. Or offer a link.
Kintara 08-07-05, 12:57 PM	Would you elaborate on the zones? They seem worth the trouble. Or offer a link.Hmm, as I said, the Zone system is in Mastering Iron Heroes, but you can look at the playest reports, here (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_IL). They can probably give you a better idea than I could. He also talks about it elsewhere, but I can't remember exactly where.
Szatany 08-07-05, 04:03 PM	I have read more than half of the book now and I must say its great. I'm not going to DM it thou but thats because I'm about to start WoW campaign. I will however most certainly be using some rules from IH, namely: - new uses for skills - knowledge as one skill with buyable areas of expertise (and I'm going to expand it to craft and perform as well) - skill challenges - ability strains - perhaps stunts, but didn't read them yet (they sound interesting thou).