Post/Author/DateTime	Post
smitipogra 01-21-07, 10:46 PM	My group and I are currently playing a gestalt game and a new problem has recently come up regarding bonuses on BAB and saves. When I go up a level as, say Fighter/Rogue and can enter a prestige class (for the sake of argument, let's say the Assassin.) Would my saving throws increase? The way the wording in gestalt reads, you take the higher of the two bonuses, and if my reflex is higher than the +2 would I get the bonus? Thanks! Timmay!:D
Magrus 01-22-07, 03:18 AM	I would say...yes, based on the brokeness of the way saves stack from various classes due to multiclassing in the 3.5 system. I house ruled my games so that BAB and Saves follow progressions based on class. Meaning, if you switched from Fighter 4 to Barbarian at 5th, you wouldn't simply add a +2 to your Fort save. No, since the saves progess the same way in the Fighter class as the Barbarian class, you just shift up another level's worth in each save. It gets tricky when you deal with say a Fighter4/Wizard 1 however. Then, you would end up with the Fort and Will saves switching to Wizard progression and the Ref saves progressing as normal for a Fighter of the full character level of the character. (4/1/1 + 0/0/2). With a Fighter 4/ Wizard 5 ending up with 5/3/5 overall (Standard multiclassing rules for Fort and Will, but use of 9th level Fighter or Wizard Ref Saves= +3 instead of the 1+1= +2 bonus the standard system would use. It keeps things from getting crazy with mixing up say... Monk 1/ Wizard 5/ Enlightened Fist 5/ Eldritch Knight 1/ Abjurant Champion and ending up with saves out the ass.
FoxmanFX 01-22-07, 12:36 PM	Is that how it works? Technically yes. Is it broken - most agree that it is and use a system (similar or the same as mentioned above) to correct that.
FeceMan 01-23-07, 08:00 AM	Gestalt is inherently broken. If I take my first level as a fighter/sorcerer and then begin going wizard/sorc, I end up with +20 BAB at level 20, which is ridiculous.
FoxmanFX 01-23-07, 11:17 AM	BAB +20? Wow neat trick! How do you do that? Because sure you get at first level a BAB of +1 (better between fighter and sorcerer) but after you progress the better between wizard and sorcerer (which is the same)... So your character would have the same BAB of regular classed character Ftr 1/Sor 19....
FeceMan 01-23-07, 05:00 PM	BAB +20? Wow neat trick! How do you do that? Because sure you get at first level a BAB of +1 (better between fighter and sorcerer) but after you progress the better between wizard and sorcerer (which is the same)... So your character would have the same BAB of regular classed character Ftr 1/Sor 19.... Rules as written. Sorcerer 1: BAB +0//Fighter 1: BAB +1 Sorcerer 2: BAB +1//Wizard 1: BAB +0 Sorcerer 3: BAB +1//Wizard 2: BAB +1 See, the trick is that it says "progression." It's ridiculous, I know, but the pattern continues until level 20, at which point one has +20 BAB.
FoxmanFX 01-23-07, 05:18 PM	Ummm shouldnt work like that: Soc 1 +0 / Ftr 1 +1 = Net +1 Soc 2 +1 / Wiz 1 +1 = Net +2 (Wiz side of progression adds +0 to fighters +1) Soc 3 +1 / Wiz 2 +2 = Net +2 Soc 4 +2 / Wiz 3 +2 = Net +2 Soc 5 +2 / Wiz 4 +3 = Net +3 Soc 6 +3 / Wiz 5 +3 = Net +3 Soc 7 +3 / Wiz 6 +4 = Net +4 Soc 8 +4 / Wiz 7 +4 = Net +4 Soc 9 +4 / Wiz 8 +5 = Net +5 Soc 10 +5 / Wiz 9 +5 = Net +5 You might want to look at the Unearthed Arcana's "Fractional BAB" table to understand better how BAB and other bonuses stack/add up....
Sphyre 01-23-07, 11:05 PM	And that folks, is one of the few reasons that I use fractional BAB/Saves.
Innervation 01-23-07, 11:29 PM	Feceman's interrpretation is correct, as written; although the phrasing "better progression of the two classes" is somewhat ambiguous. But, many DMs would (and should) opt to use the HOUSERULE on the same page in conjunction with gestalt to avoid such stacking. Similar fractional saves are possible to incorporate, but the point of gestalt is to go bonkers... :-D
Sphyre 01-23-07, 11:35 PM	Feceman's interrpretation is correct, as written; although the phrasing "better progression of the two classes" is somewhat ambiguous. But, many DMs would (and should) opt to use the HOUSERULE on the same page in conjunction with gestalt to avoid such stacking. Similar fractional saves are possible to incorporate, but the point of gestalt is to go bonkers... :-D The whole book is full of houserules! It's easy to houserule a houserule. I don't know why people get so hung up on this :tongue:
FoxmanFX 01-24-07, 11:14 AM	Innervation - I would suggest go here and read this: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8535942&postcount=1 And apply #3, #4, #5 and most especially #10 to FeceMan's interruption of that rule. To me (at least), the fractional BAB system is an extension/refinement of how they intended (see above #5!) the BAB system to work... However I didn't write the book, and I'm not a WizO - so YMMV :twocents: :P
Witch 01-24-07, 11:24 AM	Gestalt is inherently broken. If I take my first level as a fighter/sorcerer and then begin going wizard/sorc, I end up with +20 BAB at level 20, which is ridiculous. And we all know that wasn't the intention, so let's not bring it up, as noone would run it like that. No, I don't mean "many people won't run it like that". I mean "noone in their right mind will run it like that".
FeceMan 01-24-07, 12:22 PM	I mean "no DM with a backbone would allow that". Fixed for ya.
Innervation 01-24-07, 07:52 PM	Sphyre, you're exactly right and that was my point: UA is full of optional house-rules; gestalt and fractional BAB are two such rules. Despite foxman's resounding condescensions, the optional rules do not require that you use any two or more in conjunction with each other. In the case of gestalt + fractional BAB, most DMs would choose to use both, but saying the rules demand that you do is simply incorrect. I DM far more than I play. If I were to run a gestalt game it would be to let the PCs' power-trip hardcore. I would even clarify to my players that without fractional BAB such characters seem to follow RAW, and would be viable if they chose to not use F-BAB. Any good DM should be able to think up reasonable challenged for their players at any power level. But as always, the most important balance concern is not player-v-DM, but player-v-player, and I'm not convinced that build is game-breaking in any way: d4 hit die, 2 high non-combat stats, only good will save, weak skills, spell failure. I assume any gestalt build would end on full or near-full BAB, anyway. Besides, the double-caster still suffers that ultimate restriction of 1 swift, 1 std, 1 move action each round. Sure, he can do a bajillion fireballs/day, but only 1/rnd, and he's not casting any higher-lvl spells sooner than his cleric//paladin friend in the party. The non-fractional BAB would only cause mild problems for players as they sort out the order of their level-ups to make sure they have a +1 in one of the two BAB columns at each level, and it steals some appeal from the full BAB-classes. Basically, as a DM, I would feel no pressure to loop the two optional rules together any more than I would force my PCs to take bloodlines and strictly adhere to taint rules. My players may ask to use the other rule for simplicity and because it *feels* wrong to stack levels that way (as they all suspiciously eye the one guy they know will try to do it) but I don't think it is as much of a concern as it has been made out to be: it's gestalt, and it's supposed to be crazy. I think that some "Ask Wizards" a ways back offered a fractional save table, or it could easily be derived for anyone who is overly concerned with the minutia of carrying the fractions and feels it will save their game :rolleyes: .