Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edea 12-15-06, 12:32 AM	I'm sure the question has been asked many times before, so sorry for asking it again :( . I browsed the available thread titles in this subforum and only found one regarding a wizard's spell progression, so I hope there isn't an obvious duplicate for this. Spells per Day ======================================== ===================================== Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 1st 4 3 2nd 5 4 3rd 5 4 3 4th 5 5 4 5th 6 5 4 3 6th 6 5 5 4 7th 6 6 5 4 3 8th 6 6 5 5 4 9th 6 6 6 5 4 3 10th 6 6 6 5 5 4 11th 6 6 6 6 5 4 3 12th 6 6 6 6 5 5 4 13th 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 3 14th 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 4 15th 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 3 16th 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 4 17th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 3 18th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 4 19th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 20th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 Spells Known ======================================== ===================================== Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 1st 3 2 2nd 3 2 3rd 3 3 2 4th 3 3 2 5th 4 3 3 2 6th 4 4 3 2 7th 4 4 3 3 2 8th 4 4 4 3 2 9th 5 4 4 3 3 2 10th 5 5 4 4 3 2 11th 5 5 4 4 3 3 1 12th 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 13th 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 14th 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 15th 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 16th 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 17th 6 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 18th 6 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 19th 6 6 6 6 5 5 5 4 3 3 20th 6 6 6 6 5 5 5 5 4 4 Is this utterly broken? I feel that the delayed spell level acquisition is perfectly intentional for spontaneous casters as some kind of balancing mechanism (so it's not a 'snub' or anything), but assuming this is still what I wanted to do, is removing that delayed acquisition as a house rule going to break the game in some way, or is it "acceptable" to do this? I have the spirit shaman as an example, but they get to swap out retrieved spells every day (and they get better BAB, saves, skills, and class abilities), and if the "learning" of the sorcerer's spells is to be maintained, lowering the spells per day in exchange for the new progression doesn't seem appropriate.
Krusk 12-15-06, 02:51 AM	It probably wont break anything. If it does you can always say "anyone else who rolls a sorcerer cant benifit from it, and if you die you have to reroll without that benifit." But honestly it looks harmless, personally i think wizards put that in there because when playtesting the wizard looks weaker. "He has to prepare spells thats such crap when the sorcerer can just do any he knows". It was probably put in as an enticement for people to play wizards, and its too late to take it out.
CroBob 12-15-06, 04:14 AM	Too late to take it out? Wizards have three things over Sorcerers, and that is their using a one feat, quicken spell, unlimited (ONLY in theory, in reality a wizard will end up with less spells known without finding some to copy into his book, which every DM should give them the opportunity to do) known spells, and faster attainment of higher level spells. That's it. Spontaniously casting is a pretty damned good class ability. Are we fighting today? Cool... I don't need to do anything special. Dungeon delving... still don't need to do anything special, my spell-list is always optimized given the spells I have. Wizards have to pick and choose not only which spells to study, but he has to consider how frequently he might use that spell, as opposed to any other spell, before breaking camp, and even if he studies only one spell level-wide, the sorceror can still cast that spell more!
Fargren 12-15-06, 06:21 PM	Too late to take it out? Wizards have three things over Sorcerers, and that is their using a one feat, quicken spell, unlimited (ONLY in theory, in reality a wizard will end up with less spells known without finding some to copy into his book, which every DM should give them the opportunity to do) known spells, and faster attainment of higher level spells. The seocnd two are a great deal, and you totally forgot to mention extra feats.
KevinAndrewMurphy 12-15-06, 10:22 PM	It's a workable house rule. I use a few more with Sorcerers, as follows: #1 Sorcerers do not automatically get a Familiar as a starting ability. However, in exchange, they get two other feats: Spell Thematics and Eschew Materials. #2 Spells which do not have eschewable materials are struck from the Sorcerer list. #3 At 5th, 10th, 15th & 20th level, Sorcerers gain a metamagic feat.
Edea 12-15-06, 10:59 PM	KevinAndrewMurphy, I like all three of these suggestions. A lot. In particular the removal of the expensive component/foci spells in combination with auto-Eschew Materials. Of course, Rapid Metamagic is a near-must in this variant, so I might replace the feat (incredibly potent choice) with a class feature integrated by level (so you're encouraged to continue in sorcerer instead of prestige classing)...or not, but regardless, definitely like those ideas. Ironically, kobold sorcerers can technically do something similar to my suggested house rule by RAW, so that's another reason why I wanted to look into using it. This will sound off, but one of the key strengths of a wizard is spell versatility with respect to crafting magic items; sorcerers have a much harder time making items, since they can't just go off looking for the appropriate spells somewhere else, and then simply scribe it into their spellbooks.
itwasntme 12-16-06, 02:05 AM	in my mind Wizards arnt better then Scor ... Scor arnt better then Wizards there about Even Hell look in more then just the basic books and i beleve you end up finding ways how Scor can take Metamagic Feats Ok So the Scor can do that what happined to the Wizard tho? They have bonus feats tho ... Hm k so they have more Metamagic feats they can take ... sense they added more in other books as well Point being?: It depends what books your useing and eveything to state which is better Scor or a Wizard? I Dount think it would make it Broken HOWEVER i do beleve in RP Purpose's you could argue like this "Well The Scor Powers are Inept ... how did he pick his powers? I mean so his powers are inept he chooses hell he dosnt want them anymore time to change? very well i just dount get that point .." Thats the only real arguement i could see and agree with
Ryusage 12-16-06, 11:46 AM	It's a workable house rule. I use a few more with Sorcerers, as follows: #1 Sorcerers do not automatically get a Familiar as a starting ability. However, in exchange, they get two other feats: Spell Thematics and Eschew Materials. #2 Spells which do not have eschewable materials are struck from the Sorcerer list. #3 At 5th, 10th, 15th & 20th level, Sorcerers gain a metamagic feat. What does Spell Thematics do?
Tha Sage 12-17-06, 02:41 PM	What does Spell Thematics do? Your spells have a "theme". For instance, you could choose pumpkins, and when you cast fireball it explodes and looks like a giant pumpkin. It also makes it harder to identify your spells with Spellcraft.
simplyscribed 12-21-06, 03:06 AM	#1 Sorcerers do not automatically get a Familiar as a starting ability. However, in exchange, they get two other feats: Spell Thematics and Eschew Materials. I too have houseruled this and it works very well. I don't like sorcerers manifesting widely varied powers. The idea of a character spontaneously maifesting the ability to fling fireballs, breathe underwater, fly, turn rock to mud, and make wishes... well, I don't find it at all credible. Sorcerers are specialists by design, or else they just look ridiculous. Apart from having a mechanical benefit, implementing Spell Thematics as a class feature encourages sensible spell choice rather than the pick-'n'-mix approach. Additionally, if every sorcerer has a theme, each stands out as unique. Another effect implementing themed sorcery has had in my game is to reduce the appeal of specialist wizards. For me this was a good thing (I don't see the point in picking a class that's primary ability is the capacity to pick up unlimited spells of all schools if you're then going to restrict a full 25% of that potential), but it's something to watch out for if specialist wizards are important to your game.
Abulafia 12-22-06, 01:39 PM	I think your houserule progression is just fine. I doubt you'll notice much of a difference (except for a contented silence replacing the constant whining coming from the direction of the sorcerer's player). I would note, however, that there are various existing work-arounds that sorcerers use to make up for their lack of spells -- Bloodline feats (from Dragon), the Extra Spell feat, items or PrC's that grant access to additional spells, etc. If you use your alternative progression, consider limiting or disallowing these other methods of increasing a sorcerer's spells known.
Edea 12-23-06, 01:13 AM	Yes. Adding spells to the spell list so you have the opportunity to choose them as spells known is still fine, but things like the Sand Shaper and the Exalted Arcanist (spells known out the wazoo) would have to go bye-bye.