Item Familiar: Invest Spell Confusion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Item Familiar: Invest Spell Confusion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
NukeHavoc
10-15-04, 09:31 AM I've been reading through the "Item Familiar" section of Unearthed Arcana (pg. 171) and I'm confused by the "cantrips/orisons" and "spell use" entries.

Both of these entries include the same reference:

"The familiar may cast any spell invested in it as a standard action (or longer, as defined by the spell's casting time) as long as the spell does not have an expensive material component or an XP component. The familiar need not provide any verbal or somatic components, and it need not provide any material components that cost less than 1 gp."

There are two things that I don't get here. First, why does this text show up under both "cantrips/orisons" and "spell use"? The rest of the "cantrips/orisons" entry deals specifically with casting 0 level spells based on a spell list and using a sorerers "spells per day" option. At first glance, it seems to me that this text doesn't belong there.

The other thing is this -- how does one "invest" a spell into an item familiar? The rules talk about the "Invest Spell Slots" action, which allows you to give up a higher level spell in return for a bonus lower level one. But that's just investing a slot -- it says nothing about investing a particular spell.

The "Spell Use" ability's prereq says "The item must have an invested spell slot of the appropriate spell level (see Invest Spell Spots, above) and the master must be able to cast third level spells".

Unfortunately, this just muddies the water further. Under "invest spell slot", you assign your highest level spell slot to your familiar, and get a bonus one two levels slower.

So lets say I've got a 10th level wizard with an item familiar. At 7th level, my "item familiar" became sapient, with an Intelligence of 12. At 10th level, my wizard chose the "Spell Use" ability.

So far, so good, right? But here's the thing -- the prereq says that my familiar *must* cast only the spell at a slot I've invested in it. At 10th level, that would be a 5th level spell slot.

Ah, but the rules *also* say that the item familiar must meet any of the prereq scores to cast a spell. For a 5th level spell, the item familiar *must* have an intelligence of 15 (from the 3.5 SRD: "To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.").

So it is impossible for my item familiar to cast a spell using that invested spell slot. So you think, well, gee, maybe I just have to take the "Increased Sapience" ability first, but that doesn't help matters. If I take that ability, it improves my familiar's intelligence to 16. However, when my wizard gets to 14th level, and earns another special ability for his familiar, the invested spell slot will automatically have become 7th level.

Since my familiar must cast at the invested spell level AND must meet the ability requirements, it once again won't be able to cast any spells (since its Int score will only be a 16, and it would need a 17).

Something is seriously screwed up here.

My best guess is that we're looking at a re-write of the original "Item Familiar" draft, but one that wasn't actually completed. This theory is further backed up by the fact that Table 5-12: Item Familiar Abilities begins at 1st level, but you can't even take the "Item Familiar" feat until 3rd level.

I'm guessing that in the first version of the "Item Familiar" draft, the whole "invest spells" thing was handled differently -- maybe you could assign a spell slot of any level to the item, perhaps assigning a spell along with it (i.e. I invest a 3rd level slot into my familiar, along with the ability to cast fireball). It's hard to tell, but unless I'm missing something obvious, this aspect of the item familiar is unworkable.

I checked for errata on the book, but didn't find anything. Has Dragon address this problem at all? Am I missing something blatantly obvious?

ken
Necron
10-16-04, 02:17 PM I've been reading through the "Item Familiar" section of Unearthed Arcana (pg. 171) and I'm confused by the "cantrips/orisons" and "spell use" entries.
...
I checked for errata on the book, but didn't find anything. Has Dragon address this problem at all? Am I missing something blatantly obvious?

ken

Ok, sofar I didn't read an errata, but I handle this problem like this:

- give the highest spell slot available to your familiar (familiar's control)
- receive another spell slot 2 levels lower (your control)
- if familiar uses slot it does so without attribut requirement .. more like a spell like ability usable 1/day and each day may be another spell.
- Spell has to be prepared on masters turn (the daily 1 hour for prepareing covers this).
- DC is lowest possible (like scroll or wand but you can use feats with it, like Spellfocus).
- Caster level matches the CL of the master.

simple, easy to use and not unbalancing as far as I have expierienced.

Just my 2 cents

Necron
DrMorganes
10-16-04, 04:26 PM There are two things that I don't get here. First, why does this text show up under both "cantrips/orisons" and "spell use"? The rest of the "cantrips/orisons" entry deals specifically with casting 0 level spells based on a spell list and using a sorerers "spells per day" option. At first glance, it seems to me that this text doesn't belong there.Ah, I think I see the confusion. The "Cantrips/Orisons" special ability is entirely separate from the "Spell Use" special ability. If you grant your item familiar Cantrips/Orisons, then the familiar gains a limited spellcasting ability that is separate from its master. Essentially, the item familiar becomes a limited sorceror able to cast ONLY 0-level spells. The number of 0-level spells the familiar may cast per day is equal to that of a sorceror the same level as the master. The familiar cannot use any form of judgement to cast these spells; it must wait to be commanded by its master. Such commands may either be a free action (Staff, cast magic missile!) or a preset condition (Cast minor healing on me if I loose consciousness). Ferinstance:

Ralph the Wizard hits 10th level and selects "Cantrips" as his item familiar's special ability. Since Ralph only has Wizard class levels, the item familiar gains access to the ALL of the 0-level spells on the Wizard spell list. The familiar may cast up to 6 0-level spells per day (equal to what a 10th level sorceror may cast). Ralph still has to command the familiar to use this ability, either as a free action or by setting up a set of circumstances (c.f., Contingency).

The Spell Use option, however, is an upgrade to the Invest Spell Slots option. Rereading the description of this ability, we find the following sentence: The ring gains an additional . . . spell slot, which [the caster] can use. With that in mind, I'd say this is how Invest Spell Slot and Spell Use work:

By sacrificing a 2nd-level or higher spell slot, the item familiar (not the PC) gains a spell slot two levels lower than the invested slot. At the Invest Spell Slot stage, the caster has access to the slot in his item familiar. In other words, the familiar becomes a storage battery for a prepared spell of the appropriate level. Accessing the stored spell is a standard action for the master. I'd say the master selects the stored spell, and may change it per normal spell preparation rules. The follwing sentence under Spell Use supports this idea: If an item familiar casts an invested spell, it is as if the master cast it for purposes of spells per day and preparation.

When the familiar is granted Spell Use, it gains a limited control over the spell stored within it. The master may use a free action to command the familiar to cast its stored spell (and continue to cast a spell himself), or he may specify conditions which must be met and the familiar will cast the spell on its own (sort of like a non-expiring Contingency). Casting the spell takes as long as a standard action, or longer as noted in the spell's description.

As noted, however, the familiar's naturally gained Intelligence (or Wisdom) score limits the spell which the familiar may cast. This is not a problem until the master is able to cast 5th level spells (at 9th or 10th level). The master must then improve the familiar by selecting the Improved Spapience special ability (for pure casters, this is available around the same time the master gains 5th level spells). Wizards and Clerics find their familiars unable to cast spells for an entire level, whereas sorcerors - for once - don't get the shaft. Things work great until the master can cast 9th level spells. Since no mechanic exists for improving the familiar's abiltiy score beyond 16, the caster is left without a 9th level spell slot and a familiar that can't cast 7th level spells...

I'd suggest the following possible fixes.
Increase the familiar's abiltiy scores by 1. Instead of 10, 10, and 12, a sapient familiar has ability scores of 11, 11, and 13. Improved Sapience results in scores of 15, 15, and 17. Since +1 to the item familiar's scores has no effect on game mechanics in terms of ability bonuses, and since there is no mechanic outside of Improved Sapience to boost item familiar's ability scores, I'd say this option is closer to the stepped power progression implied by the rules.
Leave the abiltiy scores as they are, but allow the master to use metamagic effects to boost lower-level spells into the familiar's spell slot. This limits the item familiar's spell casting ability to 6th-level spells, but gives the master more flexibility in opting which spell to invest. Having an Enlarged, Maximized fireball on hand is always handy... ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NukeHavoc 10-15-04, 09:31 AM	I've been reading through the "Item Familiar" section of Unearthed Arcana (pg. 171) and I'm confused by the "cantrips/orisons" and "spell use" entries. Both of these entries include the same reference: "The familiar may cast any spell invested in it as a standard action (or longer, as defined by the spell's casting time) as long as the spell does not have an expensive material component or an XP component. The familiar need not provide any verbal or somatic components, and it need not provide any material components that cost less than 1 gp." There are two things that I don't get here. First, why does this text show up under both "cantrips/orisons" and "spell use"? The rest of the "cantrips/orisons" entry deals specifically with casting 0 level spells based on a spell list and using a sorerers "spells per day" option. At first glance, it seems to me that this text doesn't belong there. The other thing is this -- how does one "invest" a spell into an item familiar? The rules talk about the "Invest Spell Slots" action, which allows you to give up a higher level spell in return for a bonus lower level one. But that's just investing a slot -- it says nothing about investing a particular spell. The "Spell Use" ability's prereq says "The item must have an invested spell slot of the appropriate spell level (see Invest Spell Spots, above) and the master must be able to cast third level spells". Unfortunately, this just muddies the water further. Under "invest spell slot", you assign your highest level spell slot to your familiar, and get a bonus one two levels slower. So lets say I've got a 10th level wizard with an item familiar. At 7th level, my "item familiar" became sapient, with an Intelligence of 12. At 10th level, my wizard chose the "Spell Use" ability. So far, so good, right? But here's the thing -- the prereq says that my familiar must cast only the spell at a slot I've invested in it. At 10th level, that would be a 5th level spell slot. Ah, but the rules also say that the item familiar must meet any of the prereq scores to cast a spell. For a 5th level spell, the item familiar must have an intelligence of 15 (from the 3.5 SRD: "To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level."). So it is impossible for my item familiar to cast a spell using that invested spell slot. So you think, well, gee, maybe I just have to take the "Increased Sapience" ability first, but that doesn't help matters. If I take that ability, it improves my familiar's intelligence to 16. However, when my wizard gets to 14th level, and earns another special ability for his familiar, the invested spell slot will automatically have become 7th level. Since my familiar must cast at the invested spell level AND must meet the ability requirements, it once again won't be able to cast any spells (since its Int score will only be a 16, and it would need a 17). Something is seriously screwed up here. My best guess is that we're looking at a re-write of the original "Item Familiar" draft, but one that wasn't actually completed. This theory is further backed up by the fact that Table 5-12: Item Familiar Abilities begins at 1st level, but you can't even take the "Item Familiar" feat until 3rd level. I'm guessing that in the first version of the "Item Familiar" draft, the whole "invest spells" thing was handled differently -- maybe you could assign a spell slot of any level to the item, perhaps assigning a spell along with it (i.e. I invest a 3rd level slot into my familiar, along with the ability to cast fireball). It's hard to tell, but unless I'm missing something obvious, this aspect of the item familiar is unworkable. I checked for errata on the book, but didn't find anything. Has Dragon address this problem at all? Am I missing something blatantly obvious? ken
Necron 10-16-04, 02:17 PM	I've been reading through the "Item Familiar" section of Unearthed Arcana (pg. 171) and I'm confused by the "cantrips/orisons" and "spell use" entries. ... I checked for errata on the book, but didn't find anything. Has Dragon address this problem at all? Am I missing something blatantly obvious? ken Ok, sofar I didn't read an errata, but I handle this problem like this: - give the highest spell slot available to your familiar (familiar's control) - receive another spell slot 2 levels lower (your control) - if familiar uses slot it does so without attribut requirement .. more like a spell like ability usable 1/day and each day may be another spell. - Spell has to be prepared on masters turn (the daily 1 hour for prepareing covers this). - DC is lowest possible (like scroll or wand but you can use feats with it, like Spellfocus). - Caster level matches the CL of the master. simple, easy to use and not unbalancing as far as I have expierienced. Just my 2 cents Necron
DrMorganes 10-16-04, 04:26 PM	There are two things that I don't get here. First, why does this text show up under both "cantrips/orisons" and "spell use"? The rest of the "cantrips/orisons" entry deals specifically with casting 0 level spells based on a spell list and using a sorerers "spells per day" option. At first glance, it seems to me that this text doesn't belong there.Ah, I think I see the confusion. The "Cantrips/Orisons" special ability is entirely separate from the "Spell Use" special ability. If you grant your item familiar Cantrips/Orisons, then the familiar gains a limited spellcasting ability that is separate from its master. Essentially, the item familiar becomes a limited sorceror able to cast ONLY 0-level spells. The number of 0-level spells the familiar may cast per day is equal to that of a sorceror the same level as the master. The familiar cannot use any form of judgement to cast these spells; it must wait to be commanded by its master. Such commands may either be a free action (Staff, cast magic missile!) or a preset condition (Cast minor healing on me if I loose consciousness). Ferinstance: Ralph the Wizard hits 10th level and selects "Cantrips" as his item familiar's special ability. Since Ralph only has Wizard class levels, the item familiar gains access to the ALL of the 0-level spells on the Wizard spell list. The familiar may cast up to 6 0-level spells per day (equal to what a 10th level sorceror may cast). Ralph still has to command the familiar to use this ability, either as a free action or by setting up a set of circumstances (c.f., Contingency). The Spell Use option, however, is an upgrade to the Invest Spell Slots option. Rereading the description of this ability, we find the following sentence: The ring gains an additional . . . spell slot, which [the caster] can use. With that in mind, I'd say this is how Invest Spell Slot and Spell Use work: By sacrificing a 2nd-level or higher spell slot, the item familiar (not the PC) gains a spell slot two levels lower than the invested slot. At the Invest Spell Slot stage, the caster has access to the slot in his item familiar. In other words, the familiar becomes a storage battery for a prepared spell of the appropriate level. Accessing the stored spell is a standard action for the master. I'd say the master selects the stored spell, and may change it per normal spell preparation rules. The follwing sentence under Spell Use supports this idea: If an item familiar casts an invested spell, it is as if the master cast it for purposes of spells per day and preparation. When the familiar is granted Spell Use, it gains a limited control over the spell stored within it. The master may use a free action to command the familiar to cast its stored spell (and continue to cast a spell himself), or he may specify conditions which must be met and the familiar will cast the spell on its own (sort of like a non-expiring Contingency). Casting the spell takes as long as a standard action, or longer as noted in the spell's description. As noted, however, the familiar's naturally gained Intelligence (or Wisdom) score limits the spell which the familiar may cast. This is not a problem until the master is able to cast 5th level spells (at 9th or 10th level). The master must then improve the familiar by selecting the Improved Spapience special ability (for pure casters, this is available around the same time the master gains 5th level spells). Wizards and Clerics find their familiars unable to cast spells for an entire level, whereas sorcerors - for once - don't get the shaft. Things work great until the master can cast 9th level spells. Since no mechanic exists for improving the familiar's abiltiy score beyond 16, the caster is left without a 9th level spell slot and a familiar that can't cast 7th level spells... I'd suggest the following possible fixes. Increase the familiar's abiltiy scores by 1. Instead of 10, 10, and 12, a sapient familiar has ability scores of 11, 11, and 13. Improved Sapience results in scores of 15, 15, and 17. Since +1 to the item familiar's scores has no effect on game mechanics in terms of ability bonuses, and since there is no mechanic outside of Improved Sapience to boost item familiar's ability scores, I'd say this option is closer to the stepped power progression implied by the rules. Leave the abiltiy scores as they are, but allow the master to use metamagic effects to boost lower-level spells into the familiar's spell slot. This limits the item familiar's spell casting ability to 6th-level spells, but gives the master more flexibility in opting which spell to invest. Having an Enlarged, Maximized fireball on hand is always handy... ;)