Just don't understand how Bloodlines work [Archive] - Wizards Community

Just don't understand how Bloodlines work [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
princeofcincinnati
06-23-04, 03:18 PM Ok so this is what I know of Bloodlines and where my knowledge is lacking.
1.If you take a bloodline you get NOTHING but the bloodline bonus at that level.
2.You have to take a level of Bloodline at certain levels depending on the strength of the bloodline.
3.If the first two things are true, then how does a major bloodline work? They get something every level. When would they get skills, hit dice etc.
Kintara
06-23-04, 05:26 PM Okay, I'm going to keep this simple. You receive all the bonuses from your bloodline, in ADDITION to your class levels. It comes at the cost of having to take Bloodline levels at certain periods. Read the book again to understand what a Bloodline level gives you. Think of Bloodlines as a sort of template which you pay for at certain intervals by taking Bloodline levels.
princeofcincinnati
06-23-04, 07:17 PM ok so lets use an example to see if I got it.

Human (major celestial bloodline)

1st level Fighter ( and all the things that come with that) AND +2 sense motive checks.

2nd level Fighter (and the works) +Alertness

3rd level Bloodline (no hit points, skill points etc) But you get the +1 Wisdom.

4th level Fighter (and the works) +Protection from evil 1/day

Isnt this a little too powerful? wouldnt everyone have to be taking bloodlines to keep up? Evan with minor ones, you're at an advantage.
DM Zoc
06-23-04, 08:45 PM Actually, most people are saying that the bloodlines are very underpowered. I mean, look at everything a major bloodline gives over all of its levels, and then compare it to a +3 template.

Of course, for levels 1 and 2, you are only slightly overpowered for having a bloodline, but definitely more powerful. The only real benefit of the bloodline is that you don't pay the whole level adjustment "up front." And since there's nothing restricting you to one bloodline (just as there is nothing restricting you to one template), you could just take all of the bloodlines at major, and be fairly overpowered for levels 1 and 2; on the other hand, once you hit level 3, you won't be able to take levels for all of them, and so you'll have something like a 1200% exp penalty.

Bloodlines are actually quite powerful if you know how to use them. I won't go into that here.
Kintara
06-24-04, 12:28 AM Originally posted by DM Zoc
Bloodlines are actually quite powerful if you know how to use them. I won't go into that here. Hmm? Seems like as good a place as any. I'm curious.

Edit: Does it have to with the Bloodline levels increasing the level of class-based abilities to all other classes? I thought that was kind of nifty. It might provide an extended progression for abilities from a PrC, too.
DM Zoc
06-24-04, 01:45 AM Originally posted by Kintara
Hmm? Seems like as good a place as any. I'm curious.

Edit: Does it have to with the Bloodline levels increasing the level of class-based abilities to all other classes? I thought that was kind of nifty. It might provide an extended progression for abilities from a PrC, too.
It does, very much so. For example, a bloodline level will increase the save on a half-dragon's breath weapon (because it counts as a racial level), and also counts as a level for determining all caster levels, and determines the strength of a paladin's mount or a familiar/companion. Obviously, a Half-dragon paladin2/wiz2/druid2 with 2 bloodline levels will benefit a great deal. Depending on the reading (DM interpetation), it can also be argued that monk unarmed damage/speed/AC is improved by these.

And now where the fun begins is with rogues. Of particular interest are two class features of rogues. First of all, they get skills. The extra rogue skill points can make up for lost points due to bloodline levels. Most characters only have 4 or 5 skills anyway, so the 8 points can go to filling in for the lost level.

The real power lies in the sneak attack, though. Sneak attack is a 1st level ability which improves with class level. The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. And all other classes with this ability are worded similarly, if the don't refer exactly to this passage. Here's a build, which I used successfully as a level 5 character (and the corresponding sneak attack damage at each level).

[1]Fighter (sneak attack variant) +1d6
[2]Thug (sneak attack variant) +2d6
[3]Major bloodline level
[4]Rogue +3d6
[5]Major bloodline level +6d6

As you can see, the key is that sneak attack from different classes all specifically stack, and bloodline levels count as levels in all of these classes for determining how much each of these deals. Essentially, each bloodline level advances your sneak attack as though it were a number of levels equal to the number of classes you have that grant sneak attack. If you can find 10 different classes that all grant a sneak attack ability (which shouldn't be hard, given the number of classes and PrC's out there) and take 10 bloodline levels (granted also, your hit points will be bad; abuse false life/toughness-type items/feats), then you come out at level 20 with +60d6 to your sneak attack!
princeofcincinnati
06-24-04, 02:42 AM ok, but back to my original question. Am I right in my example above on how they work?
DM Zoc
06-24-04, 02:56 AM Originally posted by princeofcincinnati
ok, but back to my original question. Am I right in my example above on how they work?
You are correct. Note also that you can take the bloodline level at any point before level 3, not just as your third level.
princeofcincinnati
06-24-04, 02:59 AM Good point though I did know that. And if you dont take it at a certain level, then you incure a exp penaltyuntil you do.
Pagan priest
06-24-04, 04:38 PM No! NO! NO!

Sneak attack, monk's open hand, spells per day...none of these things improve with bloodline levels. The only things that improve are those things that have a numeric formula base on class level. In other words, the number of stunning fist attacks a monk can make. The DC to resist that stunning fist., or to resist any spell.
DM Zoc
06-25-04, 02:48 AM I knew someone would say that, so I took the liberty of digging out my books and getting quotes:Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class levels). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though - only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected. To summarize, you don't get new abilities or spells, but old abilities do continue to get better.

Now from the PHB, concerning the rogue sneak attack:The extra damage is 1d6 at ist level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Which is to say that the sneak attack is an ability which is gained at 1st level, and improves based on class level. Unless you're going to say that it's a new ability gained at every odd level, and since sneak attack always stacks, then a level 20 rogue is already doing 55d6 of sneak attack (1d6+2d6+...+10d6); I hope you're not trying to say that.

As for the monk, it gets kind of funny. It just mentions that it's all level-based corresponding to the charts, which there's precedence for with spellcasting; this leads me to believe that those abilities don't improve.
princeofcincinnati
06-25-04, 03:44 AM Ummm so was I right? Someone save us from all this :D
Kintara
06-25-04, 02:25 PM Originally posted by DM Zoc
I knew someone would say that, so I took the liberty of digging out my books and getting quotes: To summarize, you don't get new abilities or spells, but old abilities do continue to get better.

Now from the PHB, concerning the rogue sneak attack: Which is to say that the sneak attack is an ability which is gained at 1st level, and improves based on class level. Unless you're going to say that it's a new ability gained at every odd level, and since sneak attack always stacks, then a level 20 rogue is already doing 55d6 of sneak attack (1d6+2d6+...+10d6); I hope you're not trying to say that.

As for the monk, it gets kind of funny. It just mentions that it's all level-based corresponding to the charts, which there's precedence for with spellcasting; this leads me to believe that those abilities don't improve. Okay, I think the way I'd make the distinction is in the way it's layed out on the class progression. Sneak Attack follows a predictable progression, but it's not a "calculation," exactly. It's a pattern of progression.

Mostly, I'm disagreeing with you, Zoc, because I think your interpetation is too good. But I think what I said holds water.

Edit: If the description had mentioned that Sneak Attack is calculated with (1d6 * (1/2 Class Level)), then that would be different. But it doesn't mention a calculation, just a pattern.
--
Anyway, prince, I think you got it.
trapspringer
06-28-04, 12:58 AM I have heard this arguement over and over again. What it comes down to is that, by listing the ability out beside each level, the rogue 'gains' the sneak attack at the level it is listed. If it said sneak attack at level one, and then stated it increased with level in the discription, then Zoc would be correct.

They are still better than taking a template (at least until you take your final level at level 12) because you have more HP than a character with a LA equivilant to your final HD in bloodline class up until that point. And you have to survive the lower levels to get to the upper levels.

And If use correctly, they can make a deadly rogue. Les' say your a human, and want to be combat focused feat-wise. You would take feats which have no BAB requirements and which later show up in your bloodline. Like I. initiative and Dodge for the Air Ele' blood line.

A person who says that bloodlines are underpowered is probobly going to play a wizard every time, and is likely used to starting at level 10 or so.
Avalongod
01-01-05, 11:11 AM The extra damage is 1d6 at ist level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter.

I admit that this whole bloodline thing is worded kinda crappy. However, I do not believe that bloodline levels count toward sneak attack damage. These additions to sneak attack damage are added at specific rogue levels, not class levels in a generic sense. I don't think that the UA writers meant to imply that bloodline levels stack with rogue levels in this sense. IMHO.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
princeofcincinnati 06-23-04, 03:18 PM	Ok so this is what I know of Bloodlines and where my knowledge is lacking. 1.If you take a bloodline you get NOTHING but the bloodline bonus at that level. 2.You have to take a level of Bloodline at certain levels depending on the strength of the bloodline. 3.If the first two things are true, then how does a major bloodline work? They get something every level. When would they get skills, hit dice etc.
Kintara 06-23-04, 05:26 PM	Okay, I'm going to keep this simple. You receive all the bonuses from your bloodline, in ADDITION to your class levels. It comes at the cost of having to take Bloodline levels at certain periods. Read the book again to understand what a Bloodline level gives you. Think of Bloodlines as a sort of template which you pay for at certain intervals by taking Bloodline levels.
princeofcincinnati 06-23-04, 07:17 PM	ok so lets use an example to see if I got it. Human (major celestial bloodline) 1st level Fighter ( and all the things that come with that) AND +2 sense motive checks. 2nd level Fighter (and the works) +Alertness 3rd level Bloodline (no hit points, skill points etc) But you get the +1 Wisdom. 4th level Fighter (and the works) +Protection from evil 1/day Isnt this a little too powerful? wouldnt everyone have to be taking bloodlines to keep up? Evan with minor ones, you're at an advantage.
DM Zoc 06-23-04, 08:45 PM	Actually, most people are saying that the bloodlines are very underpowered. I mean, look at everything a major bloodline gives over all of its levels, and then compare it to a +3 template. Of course, for levels 1 and 2, you are only slightly overpowered for having a bloodline, but definitely more powerful. The only real benefit of the bloodline is that you don't pay the whole level adjustment "up front." And since there's nothing restricting you to one bloodline (just as there is nothing restricting you to one template), you could just take all of the bloodlines at major, and be fairly overpowered for levels 1 and 2; on the other hand, once you hit level 3, you won't be able to take levels for all of them, and so you'll have something like a 1200% exp penalty. Bloodlines are actually quite powerful if you know how to use them. I won't go into that here.
Kintara 06-24-04, 12:28 AM	Originally posted by DM Zoc Bloodlines are actually quite powerful if you know how to use them. I won't go into that here. Hmm? Seems like as good a place as any. I'm curious. Edit: Does it have to with the Bloodline levels increasing the level of class-based abilities to all other classes? I thought that was kind of nifty. It might provide an extended progression for abilities from a PrC, too.
DM Zoc 06-24-04, 01:45 AM	Originally posted by Kintara Hmm? Seems like as good a place as any. I'm curious. Edit: Does it have to with the Bloodline levels increasing the level of class-based abilities to all other classes? I thought that was kind of nifty. It might provide an extended progression for abilities from a PrC, too. It does, very much so. For example, a bloodline level will increase the save on a half-dragon's breath weapon (because it counts as a racial level), and also counts as a level for determining all caster levels, and determines the strength of a paladin's mount or a familiar/companion. Obviously, a Half-dragon paladin2/wiz2/druid2 with 2 bloodline levels will benefit a great deal. Depending on the reading (DM interpetation), it can also be argued that monk unarmed damage/speed/AC is improved by these. And now where the fun begins is with rogues. Of particular interest are two class features of rogues. First of all, they get skills. The extra rogue skill points can make up for lost points due to bloodline levels. Most characters only have 4 or 5 skills anyway, so the 8 points can go to filling in for the lost level. The real power lies in the sneak attack, though. Sneak attack is a 1st level ability which improves with class level. The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. And all other classes with this ability are worded similarly, if the don't refer exactly to this passage. Here's a build, which I used successfully as a level 5 character (and the corresponding sneak attack damage at each level). [1]Fighter (sneak attack variant) +1d6 [2]Thug (sneak attack variant) +2d6 [3]Major bloodline level [4]Rogue +3d6 [5]Major bloodline level +6d6 As you can see, the key is that sneak attack from different classes all specifically stack, and bloodline levels count as levels in all of these classes for determining how much each of these deals. Essentially, each bloodline level advances your sneak attack as though it were a number of levels equal to the number of classes you have that grant sneak attack. If you can find 10 different classes that all grant a sneak attack ability (which shouldn't be hard, given the number of classes and PrC's out there) and take 10 bloodline levels (granted also, your hit points will be bad; abuse false life/toughness-type items/feats), then you come out at level 20 with +60d6 to your sneak attack!
princeofcincinnati 06-24-04, 02:42 AM	ok, but back to my original question. Am I right in my example above on how they work?
DM Zoc 06-24-04, 02:56 AM	Originally posted by princeofcincinnati ok, but back to my original question. Am I right in my example above on how they work? You are correct. Note also that you can take the bloodline level at any point before level 3, not just as your third level.
princeofcincinnati 06-24-04, 02:59 AM	Good point though I did know that. And if you dont take it at a certain level, then you incure a exp penaltyuntil you do.
Pagan priest 06-24-04, 04:38 PM	No! NO! NO! Sneak attack, monk's open hand, spells per day...none of these things improve with bloodline levels. The only things that improve are those things that have a numeric formula base on class level. In other words, the number of stunning fist attacks a monk can make. The DC to resist that stunning fist., or to resist any spell.
DM Zoc 06-25-04, 02:48 AM	I knew someone would say that, so I took the liberty of digging out my books and getting quotes:Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class levels). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though - only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected. To summarize, you don't get new abilities or spells, but old abilities do continue to get better. Now from the PHB, concerning the rogue sneak attack:The extra damage is 1d6 at ist level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Which is to say that the sneak attack is an ability which is gained at 1st level, and improves based on class level. Unless you're going to say that it's a new ability gained at every odd level, and since sneak attack always stacks, then a level 20 rogue is already doing 55d6 of sneak attack (1d6+2d6+...+10d6); I hope you're not trying to say that. As for the monk, it gets kind of funny. It just mentions that it's all level-based corresponding to the charts, which there's precedence for with spellcasting; this leads me to believe that those abilities don't improve.
princeofcincinnati 06-25-04, 03:44 AM	Ummm so was I right? Someone save us from all this :D
Kintara 06-25-04, 02:25 PM	Originally posted by DM Zoc I knew someone would say that, so I took the liberty of digging out my books and getting quotes: To summarize, you don't get new abilities or spells, but old abilities do continue to get better. Now from the PHB, concerning the rogue sneak attack: Which is to say that the sneak attack is an ability which is gained at 1st level, and improves based on class level. Unless you're going to say that it's a new ability gained at every odd level, and since sneak attack always stacks, then a level 20 rogue is already doing 55d6 of sneak attack (1d6+2d6+...+10d6); I hope you're not trying to say that. As for the monk, it gets kind of funny. It just mentions that it's all level-based corresponding to the charts, which there's precedence for with spellcasting; this leads me to believe that those abilities don't improve. Okay, I think the way I'd make the distinction is in the way it's layed out on the class progression. Sneak Attack follows a predictable progression, but it's not a "calculation," exactly. It's a pattern of progression. Mostly, I'm disagreeing with you, Zoc, because I think your interpetation is too good. But I think what I said holds water. Edit: If the description had mentioned that Sneak Attack is calculated with (1d6 * (1/2 Class Level)), then that would be different. But it doesn't mention a calculation, just a pattern. -- Anyway, prince, I think you got it.
trapspringer 06-28-04, 12:58 AM	I have heard this arguement over and over again. What it comes down to is that, by listing the ability out beside each level, the rogue 'gains' the sneak attack at the level it is listed. If it said sneak attack at level one, and then stated it increased with level in the discription, then Zoc would be correct. They are still better than taking a template (at least until you take your final level at level 12) because you have more HP than a character with a LA equivilant to your final HD in bloodline class up until that point. And you have to survive the lower levels to get to the upper levels. And If use correctly, they can make a deadly rogue. Les' say your a human, and want to be combat focused feat-wise. You would take feats which have no BAB requirements and which later show up in your bloodline. Like I. initiative and Dodge for the Air Ele' blood line. A person who says that bloodlines are underpowered is probobly going to play a wizard every time, and is likely used to starting at level 10 or so.
Avalongod 01-01-05, 11:11 AM	The extra damage is 1d6 at ist level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. I admit that this whole bloodline thing is worded kinda crappy. However, I do not believe that bloodline levels count toward sneak attack damage. These additions to sneak attack damage are added at specific rogue levels, not class levels in a generic sense. I don't think that the UA writers meant to imply that bloodline levels stack with rogue levels in this sense. IMHO.