Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crashy75 02-08-05, 08:04 PM	I've been working and reworking standard d and d, lurking and posting on the wizards boards ect for quite a while. I have gotten it in my head to create a (mostly) alternate group of core classes. Why, you may be asking? Well, first and foremost just for fun. Also, I want to condense the number of core classes. I want to 'fix' the system to fit my tastes. I'm starting with an overview of each class and their rolls. I am also using a slightly modified version of 3.5. Modified rules include: Class defense bonus, armor as DR, spell point system and illiteracy. Class defense bonus: each class will now have a defense/AC bonus similar but different to the system presented in UA. Each class will gain a bonus depending upon how defensive in nature the class itself is, however, not depending on what armor proficiencies each possess. There will be three levels (at first level +0 to +2). First, i wanted a sense of advancement. If a character can learn to attack better at higher levels, why can't he learn to defend himself better? Also, it helps to stylize each class. A barbi type should be particularly aggressive having the best BAB, but should also be more reckless having a mid AC bonus. Also, i'll be avoiding the multiclass to gain an incredable AC bonus (and saves) by granting bonuses to AC/saves only to first level characters... For example, the rogue (good defense, med fort and good reflex) would recieve a +2 to AC and reflex saves and +1 to fort saves at first level only if he took the rogue as at his first character level. Armor as DR: pretty much exactly as portrayed(sp) in UA. Armor bonuses will stack with class bonus. Spell points: Probably the most radical change is the inclusion of spell points. For the moment i'm stuck on the idea of rolling spell points like HD and using the Charisma modifier. I feel that this will empower the sorcerer and give charisma a much needed boost. I'm hoping to make spell points useful to non casters, but right now IDK. This is very experamental and there is a good chance i'll just trash the whole thing, but who knows. I've read a few threads on the wizards boards that have convinced me that this could work. Well, we'll see. Illiteracy: I've decided to make literacy more rare than in standard d and d. only 3 classes will be literate. others will be exactly as the barbi- 2 skill points to become literate. 1. Barbarian: this is one of the classes i am reusing and the one that is mostly staying the same. The only change to the core class will be replacing Trap sense with something (any ideas?). Also, i'll be adding some rage feats (mostly inspired by this stanzy guy) for added customization. 2. Explorer: A skill based class that has a number of special abilities for dealing with the unknown. (also posesses explorers knowlege cuz bards are now a Prc) This is my only really 'new' class. (btw this is one of the few literate classes) 3. Rogue: mostly the same but the rogue's roll has changed. He is no longer the skill guy but is now more combat oriented. I've upped his HD to d8 but lowered his skill points to 6. He loses decipher script as a class skill (now in the realm of the explorer). He fills the roll of the street tough, the scout and even the urban ranger. 4. Psion: Mostly the same as the original. Havn't decided if he will use spell points or power points. 5. Priest: A civilized divine caster. Generally a nerf of the cleric. He'll get a low BAB, med fort save, light armor prof, low defense bonus and the ability to channel pos or neg energy (similar but weaker than the pally's ability to lay on hands) Warrior priest types will be prestige classes but easy for this guy to qualify for. 6. Shaman: a wild divine caster. very close to the druid but with a few differences. I'm using aspects of nature from UA and i'm really working on the fluff for this guy. 5. Sorcerer: Added some class abilities. He'll get 'spell secret' al la Wu Jen as well as the ability to sense magic and at 20th level he'll have an ability called creature of magic (native outsider, DR 10/Magic) One major difference is i'm weakening most spells and trying to implement a system where spells can be cast w/o augmentation but scale as they level up... so lev 1 spells will always do less dam than lev 2 and so on. 6. Soldier: Basically the fighter with some class abilities mixed in with bonus feats. I wanted to give this guy a little bit of flavor along with a boost. 7. Wizard: Not much has changed here. I'm making familiar a feat (same goes with the sorc) and i'm altering spells drastically. phew... whaddya think?
Degobah 02-08-05, 08:48 PM	Sounds cool. UA already has spell points, but if you're rolling them it won't look at all the same...giving every class spell points would give the multiclass casters a much-needed boost. For noncasters with spell points I'd recommend that a lot of use-activated magical items, rather than being freely useable, instead cost a number of spell points to activate...i.e. they draw their power from the user. E.g. a fighter wearing Boots of Speed would cross off say 5 spell points to activate them, since haste is 3rd level. We recently designed an explorer class (PrC though) for our games, it has abilities like Iron Stomach (immune to nausea), find the path 1/day (Sp) at higher levels, bonus exotic weapon proficiency, and ability to requisition funds to pay for an expedition from a patron, as well as good BAB (balanced vs. ranger).
Crashy75 02-08-05, 09:35 PM	Sounds cool. UA already has spell points, but if you're rolling them it won't look at all the same...giving every class spell points would give the multiclass casters a much-needed boost. For noncasters with spell points I'd recommend that a lot of use-activated magical items, rather than being freely useable, instead cost a number of spell points to activate...i.e. they draw their power from the user. E.g. a fighter wearing Boots of Speed would cross off say 5 spell points to activate them, since haste is 3rd level. We recently designed an explorer class (PrC though) for our games, it has abilities like Iron Stomach (immune to nausea), find the path 1/day (Sp) at higher levels, bonus exotic weapon proficiency, and ability to requisition funds to pay for an expedition from a patron, as well as good BAB (balanced vs. ranger). Hey thanx and that's a great idea (magic items requiring spell points). I think i'll have to use that one...
Astrimedes 02-09-05, 02:19 AM	Sounds pretty good overall, I also really like the spellpoints gained for every class and rolled like HP. One thing I would caution you about though: if you are nerfing spells, be sure you also nerf the corresponding psionic powers. And yeah, those spellpoints definitely need a use outside of spells if all classes get them. The idea about using them for magic items is great, but you probably need a couple other uses, also. Perhaps there could be certain combat feats that require expending spellpoints to use, so this builds in a per day limit, but lets them scale nicely and favor gish characters. You could also make these feats not function in anti-magic fields. This would be sort of neat because you could kind of create a non-multiclassed mystic knight type character. Maybe allow every character the ability to expend all his spellpoints (only if at max) to add +4 to the next die roll? This could be viewed as kind of a luck thing, and would give everyone a nice use for those spellpoints. These ideas are sort of lame, but I hope they get you thinking, because I like the sound of your system and wish you luck with it.
Necroblivion 02-09-05, 02:51 AM	Crashy, Hrmm... all this time I had no idea I was talking to Snake-eyes' Avatar... On to the meat of the subject. I think adding class defense bonuses are neat. I warn you however, that any time you up the ante with player's ability to be damaged, you will find it more challenging to challenge them. In my *cough* ambiguously futuristic earth d20 game that I run right now, I have found that if you use the modern/UA version, that characters become VERY powerful in defense. My only resource was to then give monsters the same abilities in order to be fair, although the balance still hangs in the players favor. At level 11 or so, defense bonuses outweigh armor bonuses heavily. That kind of defeats the purpose in my opinion, unless you are using the DR rules. I do, and I love it. Also, imho, try not to allow AC and Defense by any means. In fact, I would say that a character that wears armor for the DR should not get his Defense bonus, even though the UA may state otherwise. One idea I have been toying with is that characters would get a much smaller defense bonus (like +1 per 4 points of BAB). This could then be allowed to stack with armor and the like without overdoing it. Let me know what works for you! :b:
Crashy75 02-09-05, 05:51 PM	Sounds pretty good overall, I also really like the spellpoints gained for every class and rolled like HP. One thing I would caution you about though: if you are nerfing spells, be sure you also nerf the corresponding psionic powers. Absolutely!!!!!!! Perhaps there could be certain combat feats that require expending spellpoints to use, so this builds in a per day limit, but lets them scale nicely and favor gish characters. You could also make these feats not function in anti-magic fields. This would be sort of neat because you could kind of create a non-multiclassed mystic knight type character. Maybe allow every character the ability to expend all his spellpoints (only if at max) to add +4 to the next die roll? This could be viewed as kind of a luck thing, and would give everyone a nice use for those spellpoints. I like the idea of a character expending all points for certain combat actions. It would help the pure warriors but not overbalance the spellcasters (they want their points for the spellz) Crashy, Hrmm... all this time I had no idea I was talking to Snake-eyes' Avatar... Hey necro!!!! how ya been? Good to hear from u. On to the meat of the subject. I think adding class defense bonuses are neat. I warn you however, that any time you up the ante with player's ability to be damaged, you will find it more challenging to challenge them. In my *cough* ambiguously futuristic earth d20 game that I run right now, I have found that if you use the modern/UA version, that characters become VERY powerful in defense. My only resource was to then give monsters the same abilities in order to be fair, although the balance still hangs in the players favor. At level 11 or so, defense bonuses outweigh armor bonuses heavily. That kind of defeats the purpose in my opinion, unless you are using the DR rules. I do, and I love it. Also, imho, try not to allow AC and Defense by any means. In fact, I would say that a character that wears armor for the DR should not get his Defense bonus, even though the UA may state otherwise. One idea I have been toying with is that characters would get a much smaller defense bonus (like +1 per 4 points of BAB). This could then be allowed to stack with armor and the like without overdoing it. Let me know what works for you! Hey thanx for the warning. I was planning on doing something like that.. (never thought to base it on BAB...hmmm) At this time good defense grants a +1 per 3 lev, med +1 per 4 lev and good +1 per 5 levels. You get a bonus at first character level if u start up with a class with a med or good def (same goes for saves) The bonus is +0 for poor, +1 for med and +2 for good... I'm also going to do this with saves. again, good to hear from you.
Xeviat-DM 02-09-05, 10:59 PM	First, Crashy, I want to say thanks for all the help and suport you've been giving my projects, so I'm going to extend the favor to you as well. Class defense bonus: each class will now have a defense/AC bonus similar but different to the system presented in UA. Each class will gain a bonus depending upon how defensive in nature the class itself is, however, not depending on what armor proficiencies each possess. There will be three levels (at first level +0 to +2). First, i wanted a sense of advancement. If a character can learn to attack better at higher levels, why can't he learn to defend himself better? Also, it helps to stylize each class. A barbi type should be particularly aggressive having the best BAB, but should also be more reckless having a mid AC bonus. Also, i'll be avoiding the multiclass to gain an incredable AC bonus (and saves) by granting bonuses to AC/saves only to first level characters... For example, the rogue (good defense, med fort and good reflex) would recieve a +2 to AC and reflex saves and +1 to fort saves at first level only if he took the rogue as at his first character level. Good idea; I've never liked the way they did it in UA; the way they did it in Modern seemed more like it was based on how defensive the class is. One method of combating excessive AC values is to double the cost of all AC items and enhancements. Armor enhancements are increased to the weapon's 2,000 x enhancement value squared, and rings of protection and amulets of natural armor's price is increased to 4,000 x enhancement value squared. This should help to reduce your ACs, but leaves the AC in the hands of the player's class, and thus makes it feel more personal. Or give AC bonuses to monsters based on monster type as Necro said. Armor as DR: pretty much exactly as portrayed(sp) in UA. Armor bonuses will stack with class bonus. Again, probably a good choice. You want to reduce the AC granted by armor, and this does it. Combine that with an increased price for armor enhancements and you're probably good to go. If you want, I can run some experiments with some of my premade characters to tell you how it looks. Spell points: Probably the most radical change is the inclusion of spell points. For the moment i'm stuck on the idea of rolling spell points like HD and using the Charisma modifier. I feel that this will empower the sorcerer and give charisma a much needed boost. I'm hoping to make spell points useful to non casters, but right now IDK. This is very experamental and there is a good chance i'll just trash the whole thing, but who knows. I've read a few threads on the wizards boards that have convinced me that this could work. Well, we'll see. You like that too hu? Don't trash it. Make feats for non-casters to learn "spells"; things like "energize weapon", limited haste, and so forth. You'll have to deal with character's caster levels though. Degobah gave a great suggestion; I feel dumb that I never thought of it. I wouldn't go so far as to make all items that replicate a spell, either through trigger or use activated or completion, cost spell points, but perhaps you may want to use this on staffs and wands. Staffs and Wands could contain spells within them, but require you to expend your own spell points to use them. Scrolls and Potions will still contain the spells, but this makes it so these items seem more, or less, magical, depending on how you look at them. Illiteracy: I've decided to make literacy more rare than in standard d and d. only 3 classes will be literate. others will be exactly as the barbi- 2 skill points to become literate. Interesting. I've never seen this suggested before, but I really like it. To make things worse, I'd consider requiring characters who aren't literate at first level to spend skill points to learn to speak and understand a language, then to read a language (probably speak/hear first, then read/write next; though I can read spanish better than I can speak or listen to it). 1. Barbarian: this is one of the classes i am reusing and the one that is mostly staying the same. The only change to the core class will be replacing Trap sense with something (any ideas?). Also, i'll be adding some rage feats (mostly inspired by this stanzy guy) for added customization. I don't think you should get rid of trap sense. Name it something different, but it helps the barbarian avoid natural traps like cave ins, quick sand, falling objects, and other things. 2. Explorer: A skill based class that has a number of special abilities for dealing with the unknown. (also posesses explorers knowlege cuz bards are now a Prc) This is my only really 'new' class. (btw this is one of the few literate classes) 3. Rogue: mostly the same but the rogue's roll has changed. He is no longer the skill guy but is now more combat oriented. I've upped his HD to d8 but lowered his skill points to 6. He loses decipher script as a class skill (now in the realm of the explorer). He fills the roll of the street tough, the scout and even the urban ranger. I'd consider using the Rogue (call them Explorer) and the Swashbuckler (call them rogue). Take away the rogue's sneak attack and add bonus feats (I have a thread floating around that details this), and do other point for point tweeks. Then decide on changes to the swashbuckler, like reducing BAB, increasing skills, adding more custom abilities, ect (I've always thought the swashbuckler should get uncanny dodge; if they already do then I'm crazy, my book isn't with me). 4. Psion: Mostly the same as the original. Havn't decided if he will use spell points or power points. This is mostly a flavor issue. How do you define magic? Is psionics inherently different from priest, shaman, sorcerer, or wizard magic? For that matter, how are those magics different from each other? Are you going to let all SP stack between classes? Since you seem to want to give non casters a SpD (spell point die), I'd suggest you just call all of it spell points, spells, casting, and what not. To deal with displays vs. components, just treat psion (and sorcerer) spell casting as spell-like abilities, but make sure they still cost SP. 5. Priest: A civilized divine caster. Generally a nerf of the cleric. He'll get a low BAB, med fort save, light armor prof, low defense bonus and the ability to channel pos or neg energy (similar but weaker than the pally's ability to lay on hands) Warrior priest types will be prestige classes but easy for this guy to qualify for. Not to toot my own horn, but you're free to use my cleric for inspiration. I consider the spirit companion ability to be worth a feat (the companion itself is a potent ability, but it comes with a drawback, so by removing the companion you're removing the drawback). So take out the companion, replace spontanious cure/inflict, remove domains entirely, and add a bonus feat progression and you're probably good for balance. 6. Shaman: a wild divine caster. very close to the druid but with a few differences. I'm using aspects of nature from UA and i'm really working on the fluff for this guy. Look into the CD or OA Shaman for inspiration. Using aspects of nature will greatly change the way your shaman feels from the druid, so that may be enough. You may want to remove the druid's animal companion and use my spirit companion, that could work really well (default the animal domain for the spirit companion abilities). 5. Sorcerer: Added some class abilities. He'll get 'spell secret' al la Wu Jen as well as the ability to sense magic and at 20th level he'll have an ability called creature of magic (native outsider, DR 10/Magic) One major difference is i'm weakening most spells and trying to implement a system where spells can be cast w/o augmentation but scale as they level up... so lev 1 spells will always do less dam than lev 2 and so on. Even though I suport Sorcerer "buff" projects, I don't think the sorcerer is especially unbalanced (I just think they need a bonus feat progression like the wizard, maybe ever 4 instead of every 5, and they'd be fine). So make sure to take away while you're adding. If you're attempting a no augmentation system, you could try flat spells like the original psionics, just set the spells at the first caster level they're obtained and leave it at that, or change spell damage to xdy+z, where Z is caster level, so the damage is less. Or even better, make spells' damage xdy+z where Z is their primary casting stat's modifier. You could do something similar to my magic system and use one mental stat for SP, one for DCs, and one for spell damage bonuses; similar to spell AC, to hit, and damage bonuses. Wow, that was off the tip of my tongue and it sounded interesting. You'd end up with a lower powered magic world, so be carefull, or you'll just see max level spells being thrown around willy nilly (which does exhaust a caster quickly in a Spell Point Die system). 6. Soldier: Basically the fighter with some class abilities mixed in with bonus feats. I wanted to give this guy a little bit of flavor along with a boost. Try this. Bonus feat every odd levels, class ability every 4 even levels. Level 4 grant +2 damage with any weapon they've focused in. Level 8 grant +2 to hit with every weapon they've focused in (doesn't stack with focus). Level 12 grant +4 to damage with any weapon they've focused in (doesn't stack with level 4); just continue this pattern. Be careful to do something to the barbarian or the soldier will out damage them. 7. Wizard: Not much has changed here. I'm making familiar a feat (same goes with the sorc) and i'm altering spells drastically. Okay, good luck. If you evenly weaken all magic, give casters an HD boost or something to balance the loss in power. phew... whaddya think? Great job. I can see you've managed to pick and choose what you like from ideas that other posters have made. When we (as in I and other posters who attempt to create new things) see others using it, we take that as the utmost compliment. Let me know what you think of my suggestions. (Necro, I may have to steal the idea I formulated off of your own; make wands and staffs require spell points to use, which would greatly reduce their cost I think).
Crashy75 02-10-05, 07:42 PM	First, Crashy, I want to say thanks for all the help and suport you've been giving my projects, so I'm going to extend the favor to you as well. Well thank you in turn. .... One method of combating excessive AC values is to double the cost of all AC items and enhancements. Armor enhancements are increased to the weapon's 2,000 x enhancement value squared, and rings of protection and amulets of natural armor's price is increased to 4,000 x enhancement value squared. This should help to reduce your ACs, but leaves the AC in the hands of the player's class, and thus makes it feel more personal. Or give AC bonuses to monsters based on monster type as Necro said. Double the cost at least. I plan on making non potions/scrolls very rare. Again, probably a good choice. You want to reduce the AC granted by armor, and this does it. Combine that with an increased price for armor enhancements and you're probably good to go. If you want, I can run some experiments with some of my premade characters to tell you how it looks. That would be cool. You like that too hu? Don't trash it. Make feats for non-casters to learn "spells"; things like "energize weapon", limited haste, and so forth. You'll have to deal with character's caster levels though. Oh yeah that was your thread. Great stuff! Reading it again, i am more inspired then before! I'm thinking of tackling spells next, so then i'll balance feats accordingly. Degobah gave a great suggestion; I feel dumb that I never thought of it. I wouldn't go so far as to make all items that replicate a spell, either through trigger or use activated or completion, cost spell points, but perhaps you may want to use this on staffs and wands. Staffs and Wands could contain spells within them, but require you to expend your own spell points to use them. Scrolls and Potions will still contain the spells, but this makes it so these items seem more, or less, magical, depending on how you look at them. That is a great suggestion. Interesting. I've never seen this suggested before, but I really like it. To make things worse, I'd consider requiring characters who aren't literate at first level to spend skill points to learn to speak and understand a language, then to read a language (probably speak/hear first, then read/write next; though I can read spanish better than I can speak or listen to it). Yo Tambien! ;) uuummm i still can't spell corectly tho... I don't think you should get rid of trap sense. Name it something different, but it helps the barbarian avoid natural traps like cave ins, quick sand, falling objects, and other things. you think so? It just seems so...thieffy. I'd consider using the Rogue (call them Explorer) and the Swashbuckler (call them rogue). Take away the rogue's sneak attack and add bonus feats (I have a thread floating around that details this), and do other point for point tweeks. Then decide on changes to the swashbuckler, like reducing BAB, increasing skills, adding more custom abilities, ect (I've always thought the swashbuckler should get uncanny dodge; if they already do then I'm crazy, my book isn't with me). Thats a great idea! Tho i'm not sure the explorer should have all those sneaky skills... This is mostly a flavor issue. How do you define magic? Is psionics inherently different from priest, shaman, sorcerer, or wizard magic? For that matter, how are those magics different from each other? Are you going to let all SP stack between classes? Since you seem to want to give non casters a SpD (spell point die), I'd suggest you just call all of it spell points, spells, casting, and what not. To deal with displays vs. components, just treat psion (and sorcerer) spell casting as spell-like abilities, but make sure they still cost SP. I really want psionics to be a completely different apple. Other than that i'm just brainstorming... Not to toot my own horn, but you're free to use my cleric for inspiration. I consider the spirit companion ability to be worth a feat (the companion itself is a potent ability, but it comes with a drawback, so by removing the companion you're removing the drawback). So take out the companion, replace spontanious cure/inflict, remove domains entirely, and add a bonus feat progression and you're probably good for balance. Your cleric IS an inspiration! along with the rest of your stuff! Look into the CD or OA Shaman for inspiration. Using aspects of nature will greatly change the way your shaman feels from the druid, so that may be enough. You may want to remove the druid's animal companion and use my spirit companion, that could work really well (default the animal domain for the spirit companion abilities). I'll have to take another look at your sperit companion... ohh yeah i do rember... they get extra abilities depending upon the domains u select right? very creative... Even though I suport Sorcerer "buff" projects, I don't think the sorcerer is especially unbalanced (I just think they need a bonus feat progression like the wizard, maybe ever 4 instead of every 5, and they'd be fine). So make sure to take away while you're adding. If you're attempting a no augmentation system, you could try flat spells like the original psionics, just set the spells at the first caster level they're obtained and leave it at that, or change spell damage to xdy+z, where Z is caster level, so the damage is less. Or even better, make spells' damage xdy+z where Z is their primary casting stat's modifier. You could do something similar to my magic system and use one mental stat for SP, one for DCs, and one for spell damage bonuses; similar to spell AC, to hit, and damage bonuses. Wow, that was off the tip of my tongue and it sounded interesting. You'd end up with a lower powered magic world, so be carefull, or you'll just see max level spells being thrown around willy nilly (which does exhaust a caster quickly in a Spell Point Die system). Depending upon how much i nerf spells, i'll probably have to boost both the wiz and sor. Great job. I can see you've managed to pick and choose what you like from ideas that other posters have made. When we (as in I and other posters who attempt to create new things) see others using it, we take that as the utmost compliment. Let me know what you think of my suggestions. Hey thank YOu!!
dragoncc 02-13-05, 09:48 PM	Class defense bonus & Armor as DR Been alot of talk about these lately - gonna have to give them a thought I guess. Spell points: Probably the most radical change is the inclusion of spell points. For the moment i'm stuck on the idea of rolling spell points like HD and using the Charisma modifier. I feel that this will empower the sorcerer and give charisma a much needed boost. I'm hoping to make spell points useful to non casters, but right now IDK. This is very experamental and there is a good chance i'll just trash the whole thing, but who knows. I've read a few threads on the wizards boards that have convinced me that this could work. Well, we'll see. I use this type of "randomized" spell point system & I love it. With each rolling a # of d4's (depending on class) + a number of spellpoints equal to the spellcasting ability modifier each level. You get a greater sense of variability with the spellcasters this way without getting too complicated IMO. Illiteracy: I've decided to make literacy more rare than in standard d and d. only 3 classes will be literate. others will be exactly as the barbi- 2 skill points to become literate. Hmm, it's definitely different approach you've got going here. I never really thought about it, but it really seems like it should be more of a cultural/social thing than a class choice, but not sure how to best implement that. Your solution is probably more accurate than the core system, though, for the most part. Which one other than explorer & wizard? 1. Barbarian: this is one of the classes i am reusing and the one that is mostly staying the same. The only change to the core class will be replacing Trap sense with something (any ideas?). Also, i'll be adding some rage feats (mostly inspired by this stanzy guy) for added customization. I use modified Szatany's Ultimate barbarian & it works great (made most of my classes more modular & less dependant on PrCs. Maybe make a choice between trap sense & another ability? 2. Explorer: A skill based class that has a number of special abilities for dealing with the unknown. (also posesses explorers knowlege cuz bards are now a Prc) This is my only really 'new' class. (btw this is one of the few literate classes) Is it posted around here somewhere? I have an explorer path in my version of the ultimate rogue that sounds similar. Gave him the bardic lore (since I don't have bards) 3. Rogue: mostly the same but the rogue's roll has changed. He is no longer the skill guy but is now more combat oriented. I've upped his HD to d8 but lowered his skill points to 6. He loses decipher script as a class skill (now in the realm of the explorer). He fills the roll of the street tough, the scout and even the urban ranger. So, the explorer is more rogish (sp?) & this guy is more brute. As long as both are covered, it doesn't matter what they're called I guess. 4. Psion: Mostly the same as the original. Havn't decided if he will use spell points or power points. Haven't gotten to psions in my revamping, but from what I've seen around here, I'd probably stick with PP. 5. Priest: A civilized divine caster. Generally a nerf of the cleric. He'll get a low BAB, med fort save, light armor prof, low defense bonus and the ability to channel pos or neg energy (similar but weaker than the pally's ability to lay on hands) Warrior priest types will be prestige classes but easy for this guy to qualify for. Covered both bases, so that's good, but I went with a healer, antihealer, cleric (divine channeler), & fighting cleric (crusader conversion from 2e with limited divine casting up to 6th level) as base classes. Just felt that the divine archetypes needed a full representation, but I'm trying to make them all into one elegant class to no avail -- yet. Are you going to tweak the healing/inflicting spells since you're using spellpoints? (I have an interesting variant if you're interested.) 6. Shaman: a wild divine caster. very close to the druid but with a few differences. I'm using aspects of nature from UA and i'm really working on the fluff for this guy. Sounds good, so no Druid then? Not into covering the spirit realm with the shaman though? 5. Sorcerer: Added some class abilities. He'll get 'spell secret' al la Wu Jen as well as the ability to sense magic and at 20th level he'll have an ability called creature of magic (native outsider, DR 10/Magic) One major difference is i'm weakening most spells and trying to implement a system where spells can be cast w/o augmentation but scale as they level up... so lev 1 spells will always do less dam than lev 2 and so on. Whew, scaling spells sound great, but alot of work. I like the addition of SA's, especially sense magic, but not too keen on the outsider bit (that's just me though). I do think the sorcerer ( & all other classes for that matter) needs a good high level ability to "give up" when taking PrCs. 6. Soldier: Basically the fighter with some class abilities mixed in with bonus feats. I wanted to give this guy a little bit of flavor along with a boost. Again, great idea. I gave choosable SA's (ala PHB rogue) to give the class a bit of direction without going PrC. 7. Wizard: Not much has changed here. I'm making familiar a feat (same goes with the sorc) and i'm altering spells drastically. I like what Szatany did here again with the specialists mainly, but I'm tweaking that one a bit more as well. I'm redoing the crafting rules to eliminate the feats & go with a skill/spell system & tweaking the metamagic feats to use spellpoints is fun (some I use a flat spellpoint conversion for the higher level & some use spellpoint costs that scale for the effect). But since II eliminated the IC feats, I've got to come up with a list of Special, Wizard only feats to replace them :( Spells are definitely something to consider with all spellcasters. That will really tell the story on them IMO. I like lots of options myself & am trying to wade through everything I can get my hands on before I start tackling them to try to get a little bit of everything & just the right amount overall so that the players have a lot of choices & don't just take the same spells everytime. What issues are you addressing with this drastic overhaul? phew... whaddya think? Looks like you're coming along nicely, but with spells & feats ahead of you, it'll be a while before you're satisfied, if you're anything like me :D
Korimyr the Rat 02-13-05, 10:02 PM	If you're using Armor as DR and Class Defense Bonus, I'd recommend removing the AC portion of armor, so that Class Defense makes you harder to hit and armor just gives you DR, a la Star Wars. I would also recommend, as Xeviat-DM does, strongly limiting/nerfing AC-granting magic in your world. As for avoiding the level-dip issue, use fractional progression with the Defense bonus. I've set three levels of Class Defense Bonus, matching up with Good, Poor, and Medium saving throws.
Crashy75 02-14-05, 08:02 PM	accidently unsubscribed to the thread!!!!!!! hopefull this will put me back on!!!
Crashy75 02-14-05, 11:25 PM	Regarding class defense and Armor as DR: Been alot of talk about these lately - gonna have to give them a thought I guess. Yeah, i've been pondering it for a while. I feel it makes sense that armor would simply absorb or reduce the damage from hits as well as deflecting them. And i just like class defense. I use this type of "randomized" spell point system & I love it. With each rolling a # of d4's (depending on class) + a number of spellpoints equal to the spellcasting ability modifier each level. You get a greater sense of variability with the spellcasters this way without getting too complicated IMO. That's an interesting system. A good thing about that is that casters will almost always have a median spell point range. Do u give non-spellcasters spell points (or the equivilant)? If so, what ability mod do u use for them? I like charisma because it gives it more importance (and boosts the sorc at the same time). Regarding literacy: Hmm, it's definitely different approach you've got going here. I never really thought about it, but it really seems like it should be more of a cultural/social thing than a class choice, but not sure how to best implement that. Your solution is probably more accurate than the core system, though, for the most part. Which one other than explorer & wizard? It is interesting you mention that. I'm also playing around with a 'background' type of thing where one gets certain bonuses depending upon where they come from (or even their social status in certain regons) It would also determine favored class (or give a small list to choose from). One city that is known for it's emphasis on education gives it's residence literacy regardless of class. I use modified Szatany's Ultimate barbarian & it works great (made most of my classes more modular & less dependant on PrCs. Maybe make a choice between trap sense & another ability? Yeah, i want to make frenzy and the yell ability rage feats. Basically, if u have the feat u can make a yell or enter a frenzy (no frenzy/rage combos tho) I'm in the air about trap sense. XDM has showed me how it works for the barbi ( for ex vs an avalanche(sp) Is it posted around here somewhere? I have an explorer path in my version of the ultimate rogue that sounds similar. Gave him the bardic lore (since I don't have bards) I agree with no bards as a core class. too specific IMO. So, the explorer is more rogish (sp?) & this guy is more brute. As long as both are covered, it doesn't matter what they're called I guess. hhhmmmm maybe i'll call him a brute.?. Haven't gotten to psions in my revamping, but from what I've seen around here, I'd probably stick with PP. Aggreed. I have to say i really like psionics as is. re: cleric/priest types Covered both bases, so that's good, but I went with a healer, antihealer, cleric (divine channeler), & fighting cleric (crusader conversion from 2e with limited divine casting up to 6th level) as base classes. Just felt that the divine archetypes needed a full representation, but I'm trying to make them all into one elegant class to no avail -- yet. Are you going to tweak the healing/inflicting spells since you're using spellpoints? (I have an interesting variant if you're interested.) Well, one of my goals was to reduce the number of core classes, but i may add a templar type core class. Oh and regarding the altered spells, Consider me interested!!! Re: Druid/shaman Sounds good, so no Druid then? Not into covering the spirit realm with the shaman though? I'm hoping if i do it right, this class will cover both. we'll see. Whew, scaling spells sound great, but alot of work. I like the addition of SA's, especially sense magic, but not too keen on the outsider bit (that's just me though). I do think the sorcerer ( & all other classes for that matter) needs a good high level ability to "give up" when taking PrCs. Re: Scaling dam Here's what i have so far: 0 lev spells 1d3 dam, with some exceptions (for ex: keeping that spell (forget name) that does 1d6 to undead. 1st lev: 1d4 (+1/lev) Max 1d4 +5 2nd: 1d4/lev Max 5d4 3rd: 1d4 +1/lev max 5d4+5 4th: 1d6/lev Max 8d6 5th: 1d6+1/lev Max 8d6+8 6th: 1d8/lev Max 10d8 7th: 1d8+1/lev Max 10d8+10 8th: 1d10/lev max 15d10 9th 1d12/lev max 15d12 There will be exceptions of course especially spells that only damage certain creatures will generally do more dam and death spells will do con dam on a failed save and hp dam on a successful save. (still working on the details tho) Agreed about the sorc. Again, great idea. I gave choosable SA's (ala PHB rogue) to give the class a bit of direction without going PrC. SA's? Special attacks? Oh and i'm really leaning towards szantany on this one. ... I'm redoing the crafting rules to eliminate the feats & go with a skill/spell system & tweaking the metamagic feats to use spellpoints is fun (some I use a flat spellpoint conversion for the higher level & some use spellpoint costs that scale for the effect). But since II eliminated the IC feats, I've got to come up with a list of Special, Wizard only feats to replace them :( I'd like to see this. Do u have them posted somewhere? Spells are definitely something to consider with all spellcasters. That will really tell the story on them IMO. I like lots of options myself & am trying to wade through everything I can get my hands on before I start tackling them to try to get a little bit of everything & just the right amount overall so that the players have a lot of choices & don't just take the same spells everytime. What issues are you addressing with this drastic overhaul? Well, first there is the scaling of damage. Also, some spells are kind of weird to my thinking (like invisibility- how does the spell 'know' i'm attacking somebody? Why does it care?- i'm keeping the improved versions but eliminating the lesser versions. Also, i'm altering the detect alignment spells to only detect creatures with the alignment sub-types (justification; they can only detect 'supernatural good/evil ect. Mortals aura's are too weak. even priests). PC's are gonna have to use sense motive if they want to figure a mundane NPC out. Of course, if the resident tavern owner registers as supernatural evil, the PC's can be sure he's more than he seems... Looks like you're coming along nicely, but with spells & feats ahead of you, it'll be a while before you're satisfied, if you're anything like me :D Yeah, it's unlikely i'll ever be satisfied! ;) If you're using Armor as DR and Class Defense Bonus, I'd recommend removing the AC portion of armor, so that Class Defense makes you harder to hit and armor just gives you DR, a la Star Wars. I would also recommend, as Xeviat-DM does, strongly limiting/nerfing AC-granting magic in your world. As for avoiding the level-dip issue, use fractional progression with the Defense bonus. I've set three levels of Class Defense Bonus, matching up with Good, Poor, and Medium saving throws. Hmmm.... I am tempted to go the SW route but i really think that armor could be useful in defecting blows as well as absorbing them. For example, i plan for light lether armor to simply have +1AC (no dr) though there is the possibility that pC's AC will skyrocket... I'm hoping for a happy medium. Also, i want even a good class defense bonus to be less than a good save Perhaps max (at lev 20) of +9 for a good one (in order to use the UA version as is)