Keeping the Cloistered Cleric balanced in Gestalt games [Archive] - Wizards Community

Keeping the Cloistered Cleric balanced in Gestalt games [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LordPerrinOfNeomegaDotNet
07-18-05, 06:53 AM The Cloistered Cleric variant (Unearthed Arcana page 50) trades the traditional Cleric's combat prowess (dropping it almost to the Wizard's level) to become more scholarly - more skill points, more class skills (including all Knowledges), Knowledge as a bonus domain, more knowledge-related spells, and a Bardic Knowledge copycat class feature. In effect, it makes the class more of a classical priest figure instead of the "battle priest" of traditional DnD.

Naturally, a problem arises in the Gestalt situation. By combining with a top-tier combat class (Fighter, Paladin, etc), the traditional Cleric raises his combat effectiveness by one tier. The Cloistered Cleric, on the other hand, would get to raise his combat effectiveness by two tiers, effectively getting his bonus knowledge-related stuff at no trade-off and thus making a normal Cleric pointless to play in Gestalt games.

I see three potential solutions here:

1) Ban the Cloistered Cleric from Gestalt games. I think this should be tossed out as overly restrictive.

2) Ban the Cloistered Cleric from combining with any class with full BAB, thus limiting it to other casters (quite appropriate combinations) or mid-tier combat classes like the monk and rogue (which present some very entertaining possibilities - imagine the martial artist bookworm who only studied his fighting style as a form of exercise and is astonished to one day discover he can actually kick some ass, or the "harmless old priest" whose long hours of study have lent him a working knowledge of the human(oid) anatomy that makes him much deadlier than he looks).

3) Impose spell failure on the Cloistered Cleric (but let him bypass it in light armor), as his spellcasting training did not include the normal Cleric's casting-while-armored training. If the Cloistered Cleric is really intent on mixing with a front-line combat class, he'll just have to add Dex to the list of ability scores he needs high rolls in. I don't think it would be wise to allow him to take and benefit from the Battle Caster feat from Complete Arcane - it seems like it would almost defeat the fix.

Comments?
oneday
07-18-05, 09:07 AM I really don't see the point in limiting the Cloistered Cleric in gestalt. It may be powerful, but so is every other Gestalt combination. I don't think it's going to be any more of a problem than anything else.
Aurotuli
07-18-05, 07:24 PM Do you intend to ban the wizard as well, since it has low BAB and low HD. Gestaulting it with a Fighter or a (combat) Cleric, or a Ranger, or a Paladin is just as 'unbalancing' as gestaulting a Cloistered Cleric with one of them. The Wizard has bonus feats, potentially a familiar, and numerous powerful offense spells (far more than the cleric).
Randvek
07-18-05, 10:54 PM I wouldn't ban the Cloistered Cleric for gestalt play, but if I were the DM, I would force the characters to come up with a concept that made the Cloistered Cleric work.

For example, how would a Fighter or Barbarian work with a Cloistered Cleric? Unless the Fighter just sat in and read about how to use those nifty weapons all day. And the Barbarian? Man, that's just wrong.

On the other hand, a Cloistered Cleric concept makes total sense for, say, a Monk or a Wizard.

DM call, I say. Make the players have a concept before they min/max!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LordPerrinOfNeomegaDotNet 07-18-05, 06:53 AM	The Cloistered Cleric variant (Unearthed Arcana page 50) trades the traditional Cleric's combat prowess (dropping it almost to the Wizard's level) to become more scholarly - more skill points, more class skills (including all Knowledges), Knowledge as a bonus domain, more knowledge-related spells, and a Bardic Knowledge copycat class feature. In effect, it makes the class more of a classical priest figure instead of the "battle priest" of traditional DnD. Naturally, a problem arises in the Gestalt situation. By combining with a top-tier combat class (Fighter, Paladin, etc), the traditional Cleric raises his combat effectiveness by one tier. The Cloistered Cleric, on the other hand, would get to raise his combat effectiveness by two tiers, effectively getting his bonus knowledge-related stuff at no trade-off and thus making a normal Cleric pointless to play in Gestalt games. I see three potential solutions here: 1) Ban the Cloistered Cleric from Gestalt games. I think this should be tossed out as overly restrictive. 2) Ban the Cloistered Cleric from combining with any class with full BAB, thus limiting it to other casters (quite appropriate combinations) or mid-tier combat classes like the monk and rogue (which present some very entertaining possibilities - imagine the martial artist bookworm who only studied his fighting style as a form of exercise and is astonished to one day discover he can actually kick some ass, or the "harmless old priest" whose long hours of study have lent him a working knowledge of the human(oid) anatomy that makes him much deadlier than he looks). 3) Impose spell failure on the Cloistered Cleric (but let him bypass it in light armor), as his spellcasting training did not include the normal Cleric's casting-while-armored training. If the Cloistered Cleric is really intent on mixing with a front-line combat class, he'll just have to add Dex to the list of ability scores he needs high rolls in. I don't think it would be wise to allow him to take and benefit from the Battle Caster feat from Complete Arcane - it seems like it would almost defeat the fix. Comments?
oneday 07-18-05, 09:07 AM	I really don't see the point in limiting the Cloistered Cleric in gestalt. It may be powerful, but so is every other Gestalt combination. I don't think it's going to be any more of a problem than anything else.
Aurotuli 07-18-05, 07:24 PM	Do you intend to ban the wizard as well, since it has low BAB and low HD. Gestaulting it with a Fighter or a (combat) Cleric, or a Ranger, or a Paladin is just as 'unbalancing' as gestaulting a Cloistered Cleric with one of them. The Wizard has bonus feats, potentially a familiar, and numerous powerful offense spells (far more than the cleric).
Randvek 07-18-05, 10:54 PM	I wouldn't ban the Cloistered Cleric for gestalt play, but if I were the DM, I would force the characters to come up with a concept that made the Cloistered Cleric work. For example, how would a Fighter or Barbarian work with a Cloistered Cleric? Unless the Fighter just sat in and read about how to use those nifty weapons all day. And the Barbarian? Man, that's just wrong. On the other hand, a Cloistered Cleric concept makes total sense for, say, a Monk or a Wizard. DM call, I say. Make the players have a concept before they min/max!