Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Knucklehead 10-24-04, 06:02 PM	Disclaimer: I posted this on the Skills and Feats board, but it didn't get the feedback. Let's see how it does over here :D A DM of mine called me the other night after discovering an alternate rule for Knowledge checks. Click Here (http://www.giantitp.com/Func0019.html) to read the details. Essentially, by taking ranks in Knowledge skills you can gain numerical benefits in the form of a Competence bonus. You can gain a minimal boost (+1 or +2) to attack rolls, AC, spell DC's, saves, etc. You can attempt a Knowledge check to give yourself an advantage in a situation. You may attempt one such check per day for each Knowledge skill in which you have ranks. A basic check (DC 20) gains you a +1 competence bonus to AC, attack rolls, damage rolls, or the save DCs of your spells against one particular opponent , or a +2 competence bonus to one saving throw against a particular effect (a certain wizard's spells, poison, or to avoid traps, for example), or a +2 competence bonus to one skill check to accomplish a particular task. A DC (30) check increases these bonuses to +2/+4/+4 respectively. You must specify the opponent, effect or task upon making the check, and the bonuses last until the conditions are met or a day passes, whichever comes first. You must describe how your knowledge produces these results; a knowledge skill which is incompatible with a particular result increases the check DC by +10, at the DM’s discretion. If you fail the Knowledge check, you may not attempt to gain an advantage through that Knowledge skill for the rest of the day, though you may still use a different Knowledge skill. I bring this up to get peoples opinions on the balance of this variant. Please read the expanded definitions and explanation using the above link and give me you thoughts.
Sucineri 10-24-04, 06:52 PM	Sorry to say, but personally I think that rule sucks. A party is facing off against a band of orcs. The party wizard targets the orcs with a fireball, and really wants the orc shaman to be affected. She first makes a Knowledge (arcana) check, gets a 22, and declares her understanding of the arcane mysteries to be so thorough as to increase the saving throw DC on her fireball by one, for the shaman only. If you make an area of affect spell more powerful for JUST one person..it would make it more powerful overall to everyone in the area of affect. Now if it was a single target spell, then MAYBE I can believe it..but only once. Boris the Brave raises his sword and begins to stalk towards the party, plate mail clinking heavily. Rosa the bard knows that the Brave family is an old and chivalrous line, and has a duty to protect women. She uses that to her advantage, unbinding her long hair and taunting, "You wouldn't hit a girl, would you?" as she tries to stab him with her rapier. Boris is thrown off by her taunts, and fights poorly. (Rosa makes a successful Knowledge (nobility and royalty) check, and gains a +1 AC bonus versus Boris). If they are against hurting women..then you wouldn't get an AC bonus..he just wouldn't hit you if you revealed you were a woman. Maybe it will give you a surprise round against him during the combat..but not an AC bonus, that's just stupid. The fighter is up next, and he first makes his Knowledge (geography) check. He gets a 20 as well, and declares he is using the slope of the ground to add momentum to his charge. He gets a +1 to attack the orc he singles out for his charge, lopping the orc's head off. If anything that should give you a +1 to damage and give the ENEMY a +1 bonus to attack since you are so wildly out of control running downhill at someone. Marco squints around the ruined great hall and comments to his fellow adventurers, "You know, that support pillar there doesn't actually support anything. And it's not decorated. I wonder why it's there?" A quick search later and the nimble halfling has found a secret tunnel hidden behind the pillar. (Marco makes a successful Knowledge (architecture and engineering) check, and receives a +2 bonus to his Search check to find the secret door). You know that the support pillar is fake sure..but that doesn't mean you get more of a search around it compared to other pillars..you just know it's fake, and should start searching there if anything. Hedda growls as she sees the enemy wizard preparing to cast. Her sorcerous companion shouts, "It's another fireball!" "Get down!" Hedda calls back, and her companions begin diving for cover. Hedda recognizes the tall grass to her left as not being flat land, but a recessed divot common to plains. She rolls into the sheltered hollow just as the fireball bursts overhead, safe from the flames. (Hedda makes a successful Knowledge (geography) check, and receives a +2 bonus to Reflex saves against area spells). So you are making a move action when it isn't your turn? When did this start happening? Finally, the party cleric decides to just bash one of the remaining orcs with his mace. He knows the undead-infested tomb is just up ahead, and he wants to save his situational advantage for when he really needs to turn some of them. Umm..metagame much? These rules are just incredibly stupid and not realistic when dealing within this game.
Knucklehead 10-24-04, 07:04 PM	That is two nays so far. One guy on the Skills and Feats board said the same thing. I'm inclined to agree, but I don't know if it's just to disagree with the person who brought it up or if it really is munchkiny. That's the reason I posted. You make valid points. Anyone else want to weigh in?
Kiri Sittori 10-25-04, 10:28 AM	I think the RAW opened up a can of worms that REALLY wasn't necessary, when they decided that K:Religion granted the +2 to turn undead. (I felt that this was akin to K:Arcane granting +2 to SR checks, K:Architecture and Engineering giving +2 to hit with Siege Engines, or K:Nature granting +2 to attack rolls when ambushing in natural surroundings, but only on the ambush round. Only better.) Thus I must grant a +1 to "This might not be a good idea."
Nedlum 10-25-04, 01:31 PM	Right. Because if there's one ability that is overpowered as it is, it's Turn Undead. And if there's one skill that no cleric would take ranks in without an incentive, it's Knowledge: Religion.
Melpomene 10-25-04, 01:59 PM	Personally, my own house rule with knowledge checks is allowing you to tell the stats of monsters. Relitive HP, modes of attack, weaknesses, location/organization, racial skills/abilities, etc. are obtained through a check. Each knowledge coresponds to a different type of monster. (...and then I allow any ranger with a favoured enemy to take that knowledge type, and add FE bonus to checks). This allows the knowledge to be useful, but in by letting you know stuff. ...and, *if* I were using knowledge to increase combat effectiveness, I would go with an improved threat range. But, I don't.
Finarin Panjoro 10-27-04, 09:41 AM	In 3.5 knowledge does tell you about monsters so that's not really a house rule. My own house rule for knowledge skills is that they provide an additional +1 synergy bonus for every additional 5 ranks you have. So 10 ranks of Knowledge (local) provides a +3 synergy bonus to Gather Information and so on. But I would not allow knowledge checks to affect attack rolls, Save DCs, etc. There are plenty of other ways to affect those rolls and would place more power in the classes with more skill points.
Knucklehead 10-27-04, 10:06 AM	My own house rule for knowledge skills is that they provide an additional +1 synergy bonus for every additional 5 ranks you have. So 10 ranks of Knowledge (local) provides a +3 synergy bonus to Gather Information and so on. That's a great house rule!
Saiph 10-27-04, 03:21 PM	How I'd deal with each situation without resorting to combat stat bonuses: The female bard: She now know's the guy doesn't like to hit women (or rather thinks highly of them, defers to them, whatever). Give a +2 circumstance bonus on diplomacy (or related) skills. This isn't a combat effect. The knowledge skill gives the character an insight into the target. I'd give a similar bonus if a rogue figured out when a guard shift change was, and wanted to pose as the new guard. They'd get a +2 to skill checks to pull that off. Wizard vs orcs: Nope, ain't gonna work. Perhaps if he knew a lot about orcs, he'd be able to tweak the spell to make orcs more vulnerable. But I wouldn't allow that either. If he knew enough about orcs (using the appropriate knowledge skill) I might give him a clue as to the sort of spells orcs would be unprepared for, if any. Or perhaps remind them that they aren't likely to have high wisdom saves. Knowledge geography and the fighter: Nope. I'd remind him about high ground bonuses. That's it. Hedda and the divot: I'd point out to her the divot. She can then hide in it and get the cover bonus to saves if she wants. Then again, she's basically stationary in the divot if she wants to keep it. Knowledge geography, in general I'd allow to help cut travel times, or determine a shortcut or route to cut off the enemy. It's more about knowing "Serantine is located on the Greenlake river, and is the seat of power for the local lord, and a major source of the kingdoms wheat", not: You recognize a hole over there. That'd be geology. Marco and the pillar: Just fine, except I wouldn't give a bonus to search checks. They now know where to look (without a spot or search! that's good on it's own) and can take 20 searching it. If that doesn't find it, they're outa luck. I'd allow these as often per session as it requires. Since they merely suggest possible tactics. Another example: Knowledge geography: Perhaps the character recognizes a formation ripe for avalanches or land-slides. With a little work he may be able to set about rigging it to trigger and cut off an enemy's advance, retreat, or isolate them for an ambush. Or maybe it tells the player he really shouldn't be yelling and setting off dynamite right there.