Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarthHobo 10-03-07, 12:11 PM	Title says it all. What tweaks would you make to have an LA +0 hobgoblin that still has the same flavor as the current one?
DM-Scott 10-04-07, 01:13 AM	I'd leave the hobgoblin as it was an run it without a LA. Why would I do this? Well because it's not stronger than standard core races. In fact, most monstrous NPCs aren't as good as core races for a number of reasons. The hobgoblin gets the following. * +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution. * A hobgoblin’s base land speed is 30 feet. * Darkvision out to 60 feet. * +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. * Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Infernal, Giant, Orc. * Favored Class: Fighter. * Level adjustment +1. Congratulations! You have a net +4 to your ability scores. What else do you get? Standard speed, darkvision, and a +4 racial bonus to move silently checks. Seems like a pretty solid race. Let's look at a dwarf. Dwarves possess the following racial traits. * +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma. * Medium size. * A dwarf’s base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load. * Darkvision out to to 60 feet. * Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. Dwarves have a sixth sense about stonework, an innate ability that they get plenty of opportunity to practice and hone in their underground homes. * Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons. * Stability: Dwarves are exceptionally stable on their feet. A dwarf has a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground). * +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. *Not reflected in the saving throw numbers given here. * +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. *Not reflected in the saving throw numbers given here. * +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs (including half-orcs) and goblinoids (including goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears). * +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against creatures of the giant type (such as ogres, trolls, and hill giants). * +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items. * +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal. * Automatic Languages: Common, Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, Undercommon. * Favored Class: Fighter. While the hobgoblin doesn't have balanced ability scores (a net +2 instead of +0), the dwarf has it beat in many respects. The dwarf gains the same darkvision, and while is slower than the hobgoblin will never be slower (due to heavy armor) and also has the ability to preform tumble checks in medium and heavy armor (check the tumble skill description). Furthermore, the dwarf gains impressive bonuses against orcs, goblinoids, and especially giants. They also receive a racial bonus against all spells and spell like abilities, which is the vast majority of things you normally have to save against anyway. They get a +2 racial bonus against poisons (another thing you might have to save against that isn't magical), and also receive a net +4 bonus to skill checks (+2 to appraise and +2 to craft) albeit only with certain aspects of those skills. The dwarf is better set not only in most combats, but in most situations. He's less likely to be pushed around, tripped, dominated, is a tank, can't be slowed by weight, etcetera. All the hobgoblin has going for it is the net +4 to its ability scores. The hobgoblin's racial bonus to move silently is a plus, but generally will also need to be coupled with hide to be effective (though it is a nice ability). I could go deeper into it, but it's 1am right now, and I'm half asleep. In closing, LA +0 Hobgoblin, how would I do it? I'd re-write the LA to +0 and be done with it. :D (Don't even get me started on the Blue goblins from the expanded psionics handbook. :eek: ) Peace out, Game on.
Cantankerous 10-04-07, 02:18 AM	I disagree totally. In a decent tactical game the 20' movement rate of the dwarf is a HUGE limiting factor. They aren't superior to the Hobo, just different. They aren't even the equal of the Hobo. Good Dex, equal Con bonus, and the Dex adds in VERY nicely with the racial modifier to Move Silently, adding Darkvision makes them a fabulous choice for Ranger with no weaknesses at all EXCEPT for that +1 LA. Take it away and you screw a balance issue that is more far reaching than a simplistic comparison to a dwarf. So, how to get rid of the +1LA? If your DM will allow it, might be to offer to have him had recently become one eyed, with a say, -1 to all ranged attacks and to Initiative for the early levels that you could buy off later (he's adapted to it) by spending a feat slot. That should certainly bring the LA down by 1 and it adds something to the character for RP purposes. Isshia
IRememberCecil 10-04-07, 08:53 AM	I'm playing a Hobgoblin right now with +0 LA. I don't really get the feeling that he's any more powerful than the other races I've played (Humans, Dwarves and modified Half-Orcs).
Cantankerous 10-04-07, 09:38 AM	it depends on other factors too. If the rest of it is Core (25 pt stat buy or equivalent), magic items limited per the DMG and so forth a +1 LA does make a very noticeable difference. If the characters are generated by rolling, and the difference in their values there is 6 to 8 pt equivalent that alone makes up for the +1. If the wealth level or the magic items handed out is ahead of the curve, that too makes the +1 LA all but disappear. In a standard game though why would anyone take any standard race for ranger over Bugbear? They are built so utterly optimally for it that you limit yourself by NOT taking one in the case of a ranger, or even a Rogue. Isshia
DM-Scott 10-04-07, 12:27 PM	In a decent tactical game the 20' movement rate of the dwarf is a HUGE limiting factor. They aren't superior to the Hobo, just different. They aren't even the equal of the Hobo. Good Dex, equal Con bonus, and the Dex adds in VERY nicely with the racial modifier to Move Silently, adding Darkvision makes them a fabulous choice for Ranger with no weaknesses at all EXCEPT for that +1 LA. Take it away and you screw a balance issue that is more far reaching than a simplistic comparison to a dwarf. The Darkvision and +4 Move silently are the only non ability score adjustment abilities that the hobgoblin gets. Their weakness is built internally by the fact they have nothing else that compares to the core races in terms of abilities (core races get bonuses to saving throws, more bonuses to skills, increased save DCs with a spell school, and more). The hobgoblin's got no ability score penalty and a bonus to dex and con. That amounts to the following. +1 Hp / Level (from con) +1 to Fortitude saves +1 to AC (limited by armor) +1 to Reflex saves +1 to Concentration Skill +1 to Hide, Move Silently, Use Rope, Escape Artist, Open Lock, Sense Motive, and Tumble. Of course any creature with a dex bonus gets most of that, and any creature that gets a con bonus gets the rest of it. They probably would indeed make good rangers and rogues, though halfings make for scarier rogues to anything vulnerable to a sneak attack. I'd say this is about on par with core races. Halfling Traits (Ex) Halflings possess the following racial traits. * +2 Dexterity, -2 Strength. * Small size. +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ¾ those of Medium characters. * A halfling’s base land speed is 20 feet. * +2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, and Move Silently checks. * +1 racial bonus on all saving throws. * +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear. This bonus stacks with the halfling’s +1 bonus on saving throws in general. * +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings. * +2 racial bonus on Listen checks. * Automatic Languages: Common, Halfling. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Orc. * Favored Class: Rogue. Notice the halfling. It's primary drawbacks are small weapons, and a 20ft speed. However small size is actually a plus for halflings more often than not. The hafling gains all the dexterity based abilities the hobgoblin gets due to his +2 dex. The halfling can actually carry more stuff than a regular adventurer if it's their size (they have 3/4ths medium carry capacity, small items weigh 1/2 normal weight), the halfling gets a size modifier to hide equal to the hobgoblin's move silently, and gets a racial bonus to climb, move silently, listen, and jump to boot (resulting in a net +1 to climb, though their speed hurts their jumping ability). Toss in the +1 to attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings, and a halfling commoner has a +3 bonus to hit with a knife or a sling. Rogues (the halfling's favored class) eat this fact up, as beginning with a 14 dex rogue (+2 to hit) now gets +5 to hit (+1 size, +1 racial, +1 dex). Thrown weapons have a range of 10ft, and you can sneak attack within 30ft. As long as you don't get grappled, you're bathing in awesome sauce. :D Deep Dwarf Deep Dwarf Traits (Ex) These traits are in addition to the hill dwarf traits, except where noted. * Racial bonus on saves against spells and spell-like abilities increases to +3. * Racial bonus on Fortitude saves against poisons increases to +3. * Darkvision out to 90 feet. * Light Sensitivity: Deep dwarves are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell. This no LA dwarf increases some of the best abilities that the dwarf already has without loosing anything, and only suffers a -1 penalty to attack rolls, search, and spot checks while in bright light or a daylight spell. Wow. Also, most races will play on their strengths. Halflings make killer rogues, good rangers, and good bards, but less impressive fighters (though surprisingly effective barbarians), and are a wonderful class for spell-casters as well (their penalties mean little to wizards for example), making a spellcaster who has a natural ability to be sneaky (at least a +5 hide and +3 move silently, assuming a starting dex of 10), a bonus to all their saving throws, +1 to attacks and AC from size (awesome for rays, touch attacks, and augments poorer BAB casters, and keeps the lightly armored guys from getting hit as often). You're right. A hobgoblin does make for a pretty good ranger, and a decent choice for most other classes (as the hobgoblin isn't really bad at anything, just better at some things), while the halfling will be a decent choice for most classes and an awesome choice for others. Dwarves own at any class as long as it isn't bard or sorcerer. In a standard game though why would anyone take any standard race for ranger over Bugbear? They are built so utterly optimally for it that you limit yourself by NOT taking one in the case of a ranger, or even a Rogue. I'm not sure what this is about. We're talking about hobgoblins, which while they are related to bugbears, are strikingly different, both in flavor and in abilities. I'd like to hear what others think about this. Peace out, Game on.
FoxmanFX 10-04-07, 01:42 PM	In all reality after about level 3 that +1 LA will make NO difference. Even then, as others have pointed out, it is not hugely unbalanced vs the core races. If you wanted it to feel more like a core race you could try the following Modifications: +2 Con -2 Cha OR +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha Add more racial stuff: +1 to hit (any core race that would get a +1 to hit them) +2 bonus on survival checks (just cause - good at surviving in wild?) A weapon familiarity (all hobgoblins get Bastard sword or dual sword or somthing cool that hobgoblins often use) +2 spot and listen checks (gota stay alert or get killed) Volia - should be fairly balanced against most other races. at least it would be a +0 LA.
CCS 10-04-07, 02:54 PM	I wouldn't make any tweaks to a hobgoblin. Nor would I enforce any kind of LA. 1st of all, regardless of any "proof" offered up by the number crunchers I don't see anything over-powered compared to elves, dwarves, etc. 2nd, You ROLL for stats in my games. :) 3rd, Congrats, you've just convinced me to allow you to play a hobgoblin! Or an Orc.... Or an ____..... etc. Do you KNOW what kind of RP **** I'm going to throw at you? I think that'll more than offset any numerical bonus a +0 LA might give. :)
DM-Scott 10-04-07, 06:01 PM	Yeah. In games where the character is going to face harsh social stigmas everywhere they go (as in raw hate, NPCs automatically being unfriendly or hostile) is often enough to knock down a level adjustment a bit (especially if it's only +1 or even +2). Call it a circumstance penalty. Not for all campaigns, but if you can increase the LA for a campaign (creatures with swim speeds are +1 LA in high seas campaigns, +0 LA on mostly land) you can reverse it too. Also, while I think half orcs (and half elves) get ze shaft as far as the core races go in terms of powers and abilities (half orcs are horrible at a net -2 penalty to ability scores, and only really gain darkvision as a very nice benefit), orcs actually do make for decent warrior characters, if just from the fact you can stick a greatsword in their hands and they become a leading damage dealer. However their intelligence, wisdom and charisma penalties mean that they will not good for much else at all (having far fewer skills than other classes, and being moderately to severely incapable of anything skill related if the class has 2 or even 4 + Int modifier skill points). Though if I were to modify some of them, it'd be like this. Orc Traits (Ex) Orcs possess the following racial traits. * +4 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma. * An orc’s base land speed is 30 feet. * Darkvision out to 60 feet. * Light Sensitivity: Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell. * Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Undercommon. * Favored Class: Barbarian. A few ideas on this... -Add orc double axes treated as martial weapons. -Add +4 racial bonus against disease. -Add +4 racial bonus on Survival checks. -Add +4 racial bonus on Knowledge (Nature) checks. -Add +4 racial bonus on Intimidate checks. -Increase Darkvision to 90ft. Half these for half orcs. The fluff reasons for these being the orc's nomadic and/or tribe based culture, their hearty bodies, and the intimidate check is disguised in the fact it only comes out to a net +2 to intimidation checks (-2 from the -4 charisma penalty). The darkvision increase makes them more useful in combat and non-combat situations, and actually seems to compliment the light sensitivity drawback they have by implying that their eyes are suited for the dark. While the racial bonuses to skills are large, they are in fact masking the fact that each of those skills already suffers at least a -1 penalty from their decreased mental attributes. It results in a net +3 bonus to those skills, which they are unlikely to have many skill points to spend anyway. The case of the half orc is similar. By halving the benefits of the half orc, the net bonus becomes +2 for knowledge (nature) and +1 for the other skills. Far from overpowered, but a bit better than the joke the half orc is now. It also makes half orc druids, barbarians, and rangers more suitable as those will benefit those classes more (and just out of humor, those druid half orcs may actually rely on their actual strength versus wildshaping). I'm not sure off the top of my head what to do about the half elf just yet. Any thoughts? Peace out, Game on.
Hochiu 10-04-07, 06:15 PM	I'm going to agree with the consensus that the Hobbo could most effectively be played at a LA +0 in the event of a campaign being played outside of core rulebooks only. This reduction in level is due to the influx of more powerful races into the core D&D game, such as the Warforged as presented in the MMIII, and other, stronger races found throughout various splatbooks. Its the same way with the Aasimars and the Tieflings. I'd actually say there's really no major balancing problem in reducing the Aasimar to LA +0 in the core books, period. Their abilities do not justify such a harsh penalty for experience gain. They're on the high-end of LA +0 in that case, but still passable. The Tiefling is on the low end of LA +1 in terms of power, and can just as easily be played as a LA +0 if the other, stronger, LA +0 races are implemented.
Hochiu 10-04-07, 06:20 PM	I'm not sure off the top of my head what to do about the half elf just yet. Any thoughts? Sorry for the double post, but I felt this was necessary. This is what I do for the Half-elf: Half Elves possess the following traits: • Medium size. • A half elf's base speed is 30 ft. • Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects. • Low-light vision. • 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level. • +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. • Weapon proficiency: Half elves are automatically proficient in one of the following weapons – longsword or longbow. • Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, half elves are considered to be elves. • Favored Class: Any I think it better shows the mixture between Human and Elven lineage. It allows humans to retain their bonus feat ability which makes them playable, but doesn't nerf the Half-elf in terms of skill points (from human) or the improved ability for detection (instead of elves ability to automatically make spot checks around hidden doors).
DarthHobo 10-05-07, 11:23 AM	Sorry---maybe a little more context is in order. First off, I'M the DM, so no convincing necessary. The campaign does not feature so many overt social stigmas against goblinoids and orcs; there are nations of them on par with nations of elves or dwarves in other settings, so they are an accepted (more or less) part of the racial tapestry of the more cosmopolitan areas in which the campaign will typically take place. Therefore, orcs, goblins and hobgoblins will all be reasonable PC races. But I don't like the LA +1, and I don't think the hobgoblin really needs it. But I wanted to double check what everyone else thought.
LefferDP 10-06-07, 05:22 PM	My suggestion is just to allow LA buyoff for the Hobgoblin. It happens pretty early and means he's only a few thousand XP behind the rest of the group, but it negates the early level gain that being a hobgoblin gives. In a standard game though why would anyone take any standard race for ranger over Bugbear? They are built so utterly optimally for it that you limit yourself by NOT taking one in the case of a ranger, or even a Rogue.Isshia I dunno, 3 Humanoid levels aren't so hot.
eamon 10-08-07, 07:24 AM	Its the same way with the Aasimars and the Tieflings. I'd actually say there's really no major balancing problem in reducing the Aasimar to LA +0 in the core books, period. Hobgoblin's are not way overpowered at LA+0. They are a little strong, but nothing game breaking as long as you're running a vaguely normal game. Aasimar are definitely better than hobgoblins, however. First, they're outsiders, which is quite relevant since it makes them immune to a number of pretty nasty effects (such as hold person, dominate person, charm person, and other's I'm probably forgetting). There are effects that don't occur often in many games, but if they occur at all; you've a good advantage. Their energy resistances aren't anything to sneer at, either, though at higher levels they become insignificant. Finally, they're one of the few means of getting a charisma or wisdom bonus, which are rather relevant for a spellcasters other than the wizard. If you want these races and think an LA+1 is a bit big; you could let them take a 15% XP penalty instead. This works out as about 1/2 an LA, but means more calculation for the DM (especially since such a char will drop behind by a level occasionally, at which point they'll gain XP faster than the rest of the party to compensate but meaning the DM needs to lookup two different levels in the XP table).
runestar 10-08-07, 10:14 AM	Easiest way is to take away their 1st lv starting feat.:) If you want these races and think an LA+1 is a bit big; you could let them take a 15% XP penalty instead. I would actually advise against using xp penalties in place of LA, since that does not solve the problem LA was designed to deal with in the first place. To find out why, read Why XP Penalties Don't Work for Level Adjustment Races (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/LAvsXPpenalty.html).:)
Lecen_of_Mitran 10-08-07, 09:04 PM	Title says it all. What tweaks would you make to have an LA +0 hobgoblin that still has the same flavor as the current one? +2 str, +2 con and -2 dex, -2 cha Why? Take a look at the DDM hobgoblins: they´re are much cooler than the Monster Manual one. They are dark red, strong, ugly and has a very angry look. They look in DDM like orc´s distant cousins.
eamon 10-09-07, 10:13 AM	Easiest way is to take away their 1st lv starting feat.:) I would actually advise against using xp penalties in place of LA, since that does not solve the problem LA was designed to deal with in the first place. To find out why, read Why XP Penalties Don't Work for Level Adjustment Races (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/LAvsXPpenalty.html).:) Yeah, I've read that link before, and those numbers just don't add up. In any case: All he's really saying is that applying an XP penalty has little impact on low levels, which is easily remedied by simply starting an LA character behind others in terms of XP. (The reason we're trying 15% XP penalty is precisely because it's more granular than an entire LA). I don't spend most of my time in levels 1-5, so I'm not too worried about the headstart an 15% XP char has there, but if you are, then by all means impose an absolute penalty to start with. Why the numbers don't add up: Mr. Reynolds adds 100XP to the nominal LA+0 race per session, and 90XP to the 10% penalty race. That's fine only if the XP-penalty race is at the same level as the unpenalized race. If somebody is behind a level, however, they gain more XP since the DMG Experience Point Awards table grants lower level characters more XP for the same challenge than higher level characters. At extremely low CR's and levels, this difference is non-existane (vs. CR 1 being upto 6th level everyone earns the same, vs. CR2 up to 4th, and all CR's of 3 and higher grant the same xp for levels upto 3rd). This difference isn't accounted for by Sean Reynolds. Since the XP table is "self-correcting" in that higher level chars gain less XP, a character which starts "too high" by a small amount (such as half a level) will be balanced fairly quickly, unless you're playing extremely low levels (1-3rd). vs. a CR 7 challenge however, a lower level grants 24% more experience on average, between levels 3 and 14. At CR13, it's 30.8% By the time you're battling CR20 beasts, that difference has risen to 36%, and seems to approach sqrt(2). Without wanting to be excessively accurate, imposing a 15% xp penalty works out to being behind by about 1/2 a level in the long run. To avoid the short-term gain in low-levels, you can also ensure the more powerful race should start about 1/2 a level lower than the rest of the party. Basically you'll have a situation in which the Xp-penalty char will be slightly less powerful half the time, and slightly more the other half - and you can't do better than that if the lowest granularity difference you're willing to make is one level. It works for me, anyhow!
eamon 10-09-07, 10:15 AM	+2 str, +2 con and -2 dex, -2 cha Why? Take a look at the DDM hobgoblins: they´re are much cooler than the Monster Manual one. They are dark red, strong, ugly and has a very angry look. They look in DDM like orc´s distant cousins. You're inventing a new race here - that's fine, but not really the question being posed, I think - MM-style hobgoblins have a dex boost, not penalty, so your race is quite significantly different, too.
Hochiu 10-09-07, 11:23 AM	Hobgoblin's are not way overpowered at LA+0. They are a little strong, but nothing game breaking as long as you're running a vaguely normal game. Aasimar are definitely better than hobgoblins, however. First, they're outsiders, which is quite relevant since it makes them immune to a number of pretty nasty effects (such as hold person, dominate person, charm person, and other's I'm probably forgetting). There are effects that don't occur often in many games, but if they occur at all; you've a good advantage. Their energy resistances aren't anything to sneer at, either, though at higher levels they become insignificant. Finally, they're one of the few means of getting a charisma or wisdom bonus, which are rather relevant for a spellcasters other than the wizard. If you want these races and think an LA+1 is a bit big; you could let them take a 15% XP penalty instead. This works out as about 1/2 an LA, but means more calculation for the DM (especially since such a char will drop behind by a level occasionally, at which point they'll gain XP faster than the rest of the party to compensate but meaning the DM needs to lookup two different levels in the XP table). Its true, but I still don't think that the Aasimar and the Tieflings deserve to take an XP dock that a LA +1 confers - particularly with the masses of higher-powered LA 0 races in supplemental books. Because by the end of the day, LA only functions to keep lower-powered games in relative balance, and serves as a stunting factor for anything above level 5.
Nadaka 10-09-07, 02:36 PM	Hobgoblins are only marginally better than a standard dwarf. To balance them with the non-dwarf ECL 0 races, just give them a -2 to charisma. But now they are weaker than dwarves, oh well.
Grod_The_Giant 10-09-07, 03:05 PM	If they character is low level, taking away the +2 to Dex would probably work. If he's middle-to-high, it probably won't matter.
Werebat 10-09-07, 04:04 PM	Title says it all. What tweaks would you make to have an LA +0 hobgoblin that still has the same flavor as the current one? I'm going to be running an Eberron game featuring orcs and goblinoids very soon. I've made a few tweaks, mostly to the hobbos. My hobgoblins: +0 LA, Favored Class Fighter, no stat mods, Darkvision 60', +4 to Move Silently checks, Toughness as a bonus feat, One bonus fighter feat (or proficiency in a martial weapon or armor type that the hobgoblin qualifies for) at 1st level. Sounds great, but again, compare to a dwarf as someone else pointed out. I can't say my version of the hob solidly beats out the human as a choice for a martial character, let alone the dwarf. - Ron ^*^