LA adjustment for being gestalt [Archive] - Wizards Community

LA adjustment for being gestalt [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
OmegaFrost
09-06-06, 07:28 PM Me and a few friends of mine are wanting to make the gestalt rules as something optional so that not everyone in a campaign has to select it or go without it. So we though the most logical approach would be to give it a level adjustment to balance it against non-gestalt classes. I personally was thinking a +3 LA since gestalt can be considered their level +2 against some monsters (setting minimum LA +2) and I thought that adding one more made it into the realm of not a definitley easy dicision. So what do you guys think.
scienceman47
09-07-06, 12:56 AM The laws of gestalt.

1. There are no racial hit die in gestalt. Racial hit die do not gestalt correctly, so avoid situations where its necessary.

2. Gestalt characters are not twice as powerful as other characters. This is because they still get only one action, nobody is actually more durable than a barbarian of the same level, and nobody is actually more skilled than a rogue could be at that same level. Money for stuff is split, and feats are split.

3. Everything is gestalt. You can have anyone not gestalt in a gestalt campain, and the enemy NPC's need to be gestalt as well even if they only have one PC class level. The balance simply does'nt translate to LA.

For example, a lvl one gestalt with +2 LA would die a bloody death at the hands of CR3 creatures. At later levels a 18 barbarian wizard would probably slaughter an equivalent 20th level wizard.

The benefits of gestalt are as such that you really need to make everything gestalt to keep the world in balance. Thats how it is. Besides, how in story terms do you explain gestalt characters and non gestalt characters?
Vengeblade
09-11-06, 05:28 AM I agree that the players all need to be gestalt, there is no other way to keep it balanced. But not all NPC/monsters need to be. I run a gestalt campaign where gestalt are just about 15% of the population, they are just "gifted". I've found that it doesn't imbalance anything and makes for wonderful stories.

But all the players need to be gestalt, there is no other way to balance it.
cameron1
09-11-06, 08:17 AM Not to be completely contrary to the guys above (their posts are normally quite solid) but I would and do allow it. I am of course very fond of the old 2E system of multiclassing and Gestalt is very reminiscent of it. So what I did for my characters was very simple: you need 50% more XP to level. Meaning that in order to reach level 2, you need 1500 XP, level 3, 4500 XP, etc. This ultimately results in a character that is 16th level when others would be 20th, which in most cases is balanced.

This of course, is only my notion on the matter and is subject to criticism and ridicule.
runestar
09-11-06, 08:39 AM Closest thing to a gestalt cleric/wizard is a wiz3/cleric3/MT10, so that suggests a LA of +3...:P
infideli
09-11-06, 08:36 PM I am of course very fond of the old 2E system of multiclassing and Gestalt is very reminiscent of it. So what I did for my characters was very simple: you need 50% more XP to level. Meaning that in order to reach level 2, you need 1500 XP, level 3, 4500 XP, etc. This ultimately results in a character that is 16th level when others would be 20th, which in most cases is balanced.

This of course, is only my notion on the matter and is subject to criticism and ridicule.

I started on 2e and I currently run a "gestalt" campaign. I made a chart to compare a GES PC with regular PCs just to do the challenges and rewards a little more quickly. The LA (levl adjustment) is not flat and linear. The higher the GES level, the greater the difference to regular PCs.

I do not think it is worth the trouble to mix GES and regular characters. If a character does not want to plat GES, just add fighter abilities to him or rogue abilities for free... "Your wizard gets uber skill points as a rogue and better HD" or "Your cleric knows the ways of battle" or for the fighter, the backstab is handy... maybe a barbarian rage or ranger skills? It's pretty hard to complain about and there is little additional tracking in anycase.

If you do mix PC types... let it be known that you WILL be making adjustments on the fly. A too easy victory will net the GES guy far fewer XP, or the regular guys might level from 3rd to 5th to balance the out in power... or more likely, the GES might just get 1/2 xp between 3rd and 4th level... they're special.

Just make sure that they know it is a WORk IN PROGRESS and ad hoc changes will be made for "balance".

G
Szatany
09-11-06, 09:34 PM Me and a few friends of mine are wanting to make the gestalt rules as something optional so that not everyone in a campaign has to select it or go without it. So we though the most logical approach would be to give it a level adjustment to balance it against non-gestalt classes. I personally was thinking a +3 LA since gestalt can be considered their level +2 against some monsters (setting minimum LA +2) and I thought that adding one more made it into the realm of not a definitley easy dicision. So what do you guys think.
Flat LA will never work, because the character will either be unplayable at lowest levels or too powerful at end ones. In one of my games I allowed gestalts among normal characters and it looked like this:
Gestalted class levels LA
1-5 +1
6-10 +2
11-15 +3
16-20 +4
etc.
When a player was leveling at 6th, 11th etc. he was gaining extra +1 LA that he had to take instead of taking next level. That system worked pretty well (although gestalted druid/wizard was very powerful at 18th level, but this could be attributed to components classes themselves).
Thane26425
09-12-06, 06:29 PM Not to be completely contrary to the guys above (their posts are normally quite solid) but I would and do allow it. I am of course very fond of the old 2E system of multiclassing and Gestalt is very reminiscent of it. So what I did for my characters was very simple: you need 50% more XP to level. Meaning that in order to reach level 2, you need 1500 XP, level 3, 4500 XP, etc. This ultimately results in a character that is 16th level when others would be 20th, which in most cases is balanced.

This of course, is only my notion on the matter and is subject to criticism and ridicule.

This is also how I handled gestalt and for the same reasons, though I used the 50% as a penalty to Xp rather than reworking the charts, but the result was the same. This also allows for some character to gestalt and others not without unbalancing the game, just like 2E multiclassing did. If the gestalt wanted to catch up, I just ran them through a solo adventure or two to make up for it.
strenoth
09-13-06, 10:02 AM actually, a 50% penalty is MORE epensive than a 50% XP required. a 50% penalty doubles the amount fo XP required. 2000 XP turns into 1000 XP.

if you want to mimic needing 50% more XP, you use a 33% or 1/3 penalty.

1500 XP times 1/3 = 500, 1500 - 500 = 1000 XP
Thane26425
09-13-06, 02:37 PM actually, a 50% penalty is MORE epensive than a 50% XP required. a 50% penalty doubles the amount fo XP required. 2000 XP turns into 1000 XP.

if you want to mimic needing 50% more XP, you use a 33% or 1/3 penalty.

1500 XP times 1/3 = 500, 1500 - 500 = 1000 XP

Ok, I see your point. Even so, it was never a real difficulty for our teams, particularly since I would run solo adventures for them from time to time.
OgreMonk
09-13-06, 10:06 PM We have only recently begun to play with the gestalt rules, so others may find my opinion to be a bit off.
I add +1 LA for each 3 levels. I also give max hp of the lower hd class plus half of the higher hd, then add the Con mod. They get a little more hp than normal gestalt, but I find it makes their hp match their powers and no one gets :censored: for bad hp rolls. This little house rule has saved my inexperienced butt from tpk on more than a few occasions.
Jerks
09-14-06, 06:50 PM It can be difficult balancing gestalt with regular characters but I don't think it's impossible. A 33% reduction in XP seems like it might be a fair way go. I'd also add in that if the game starts at 1st level that the gestalt characters start off at Apprentice level as found in he DMG.

Also remember this penalty if starting at higher than 1st level. Award the players starting XP instead of everyone starting at a set level.
Thane26425
09-14-06, 07:15 PM It can be difficult balancing gestalt with regular characters but I don't think it's impossible. A 33% reduction in XP seems like it might be a fair way go. I'd also add in that if the game starts at 1st level that the gestalt characters start off at Apprentice level as found in he DMG.

Also remember this penalty if starting at higher than 1st level. Award the players starting XP instead of everyone starting at a set level.

I've taken the apprentice route many times and never had a problem. That is probably a good way to justify a gestalt character actually. I've also run characters as cohorts to higher level NPCs, the apprentices adventuring with their mentors for a while. This works well if you have a lot of low-level adventures you want to play since the PCs will only get half the XP and treasure for being cohorts, but they also have the protections of a higher level character being with them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OmegaFrost 09-06-06, 07:28 PM	Me and a few friends of mine are wanting to make the gestalt rules as something optional so that not everyone in a campaign has to select it or go without it. So we though the most logical approach would be to give it a level adjustment to balance it against non-gestalt classes. I personally was thinking a +3 LA since gestalt can be considered their level +2 against some monsters (setting minimum LA +2) and I thought that adding one more made it into the realm of not a definitley easy dicision. So what do you guys think.
scienceman47 09-07-06, 12:56 AM	The laws of gestalt. 1. There are no racial hit die in gestalt. Racial hit die do not gestalt correctly, so avoid situations where its necessary. 2. Gestalt characters are not twice as powerful as other characters. This is because they still get only one action, nobody is actually more durable than a barbarian of the same level, and nobody is actually more skilled than a rogue could be at that same level. Money for stuff is split, and feats are split. 3. Everything is gestalt. You can have anyone not gestalt in a gestalt campain, and the enemy NPC's need to be gestalt as well even if they only have one PC class level. The balance simply does'nt translate to LA. For example, a lvl one gestalt with +2 LA would die a bloody death at the hands of CR3 creatures. At later levels a 18 barbarian wizard would probably slaughter an equivalent 20th level wizard. The benefits of gestalt are as such that you really need to make everything gestalt to keep the world in balance. Thats how it is. Besides, how in story terms do you explain gestalt characters and non gestalt characters?
Vengeblade 09-11-06, 05:28 AM	I agree that the players all need to be gestalt, there is no other way to keep it balanced. But not all NPC/monsters need to be. I run a gestalt campaign where gestalt are just about 15% of the population, they are just "gifted". I've found that it doesn't imbalance anything and makes for wonderful stories. But all the players need to be gestalt, there is no other way to balance it.
cameron1 09-11-06, 08:17 AM	Not to be completely contrary to the guys above (their posts are normally quite solid) but I would and do allow it. I am of course very fond of the old 2E system of multiclassing and Gestalt is very reminiscent of it. So what I did for my characters was very simple: you need 50% more XP to level. Meaning that in order to reach level 2, you need 1500 XP, level 3, 4500 XP, etc. This ultimately results in a character that is 16th level when others would be 20th, which in most cases is balanced. This of course, is only my notion on the matter and is subject to criticism and ridicule.
runestar 09-11-06, 08:39 AM	Closest thing to a gestalt cleric/wizard is a wiz3/cleric3/MT10, so that suggests a LA of +3...:P
infideli 09-11-06, 08:36 PM	I am of course very fond of the old 2E system of multiclassing and Gestalt is very reminiscent of it. So what I did for my characters was very simple: you need 50% more XP to level. Meaning that in order to reach level 2, you need 1500 XP, level 3, 4500 XP, etc. This ultimately results in a character that is 16th level when others would be 20th, which in most cases is balanced. This of course, is only my notion on the matter and is subject to criticism and ridicule. I started on 2e and I currently run a "gestalt" campaign. I made a chart to compare a GES PC with regular PCs just to do the challenges and rewards a little more quickly. The LA (levl adjustment) is not flat and linear. The higher the GES level, the greater the difference to regular PCs. I do not think it is worth the trouble to mix GES and regular characters. If a character does not want to plat GES, just add fighter abilities to him or rogue abilities for free... "Your wizard gets uber skill points as a rogue and better HD" or "Your cleric knows the ways of battle" or for the fighter, the backstab is handy... maybe a barbarian rage or ranger skills? It's pretty hard to complain about and there is little additional tracking in anycase. If you do mix PC types... let it be known that you WILL be making adjustments on the fly. A too easy victory will net the GES guy far fewer XP, or the regular guys might level from 3rd to 5th to balance the out in power... or more likely, the GES might just get 1/2 xp between 3rd and 4th level... they're special. Just make sure that they know it is a WORk IN PROGRESS and ad hoc changes will be made for "balance". G
Szatany 09-11-06, 09:34 PM	Me and a few friends of mine are wanting to make the gestalt rules as something optional so that not everyone in a campaign has to select it or go without it. So we though the most logical approach would be to give it a level adjustment to balance it against non-gestalt classes. I personally was thinking a +3 LA since gestalt can be considered their level +2 against some monsters (setting minimum LA +2) and I thought that adding one more made it into the realm of not a definitley easy dicision. So what do you guys think. Flat LA will never work, because the character will either be unplayable at lowest levels or too powerful at end ones. In one of my games I allowed gestalts among normal characters and it looked like this: Gestalted class levels LA 1-5 +1 6-10 +2 11-15 +3 16-20 +4 etc. When a player was leveling at 6th, 11th etc. he was gaining extra +1 LA that he had to take instead of taking next level. That system worked pretty well (although gestalted druid/wizard was very powerful at 18th level, but this could be attributed to components classes themselves).
Thane26425 09-12-06, 06:29 PM	Not to be completely contrary to the guys above (their posts are normally quite solid) but I would and do allow it. I am of course very fond of the old 2E system of multiclassing and Gestalt is very reminiscent of it. So what I did for my characters was very simple: you need 50% more XP to level. Meaning that in order to reach level 2, you need 1500 XP, level 3, 4500 XP, etc. This ultimately results in a character that is 16th level when others would be 20th, which in most cases is balanced. This of course, is only my notion on the matter and is subject to criticism and ridicule. This is also how I handled gestalt and for the same reasons, though I used the 50% as a penalty to Xp rather than reworking the charts, but the result was the same. This also allows for some character to gestalt and others not without unbalancing the game, just like 2E multiclassing did. If the gestalt wanted to catch up, I just ran them through a solo adventure or two to make up for it.
strenoth 09-13-06, 10:02 AM	actually, a 50% penalty is MORE epensive than a 50% XP required. a 50% penalty doubles the amount fo XP required. 2000 XP turns into 1000 XP. if you want to mimic needing 50% more XP, you use a 33% or 1/3 penalty. 1500 XP times 1/3 = 500, 1500 - 500 = 1000 XP
Thane26425 09-13-06, 02:37 PM	actually, a 50% penalty is MORE epensive than a 50% XP required. a 50% penalty doubles the amount fo XP required. 2000 XP turns into 1000 XP. if you want to mimic needing 50% more XP, you use a 33% or 1/3 penalty. 1500 XP times 1/3 = 500, 1500 - 500 = 1000 XP Ok, I see your point. Even so, it was never a real difficulty for our teams, particularly since I would run solo adventures for them from time to time.
OgreMonk 09-13-06, 10:06 PM	We have only recently begun to play with the gestalt rules, so others may find my opinion to be a bit off. I add +1 LA for each 3 levels. I also give max hp of the lower hd class plus half of the higher hd, then add the Con mod. They get a little more hp than normal gestalt, but I find it makes their hp match their powers and no one gets :censored: for bad hp rolls. This little house rule has saved my inexperienced butt from tpk on more than a few occasions.
Jerks 09-14-06, 06:50 PM	It can be difficult balancing gestalt with regular characters but I don't think it's impossible. A 33% reduction in XP seems like it might be a fair way go. I'd also add in that if the game starts at 1st level that the gestalt characters start off at Apprentice level as found in he DMG. Also remember this penalty if starting at higher than 1st level. Award the players starting XP instead of everyone starting at a set level.
Thane26425 09-14-06, 07:15 PM	It can be difficult balancing gestalt with regular characters but I don't think it's impossible. A 33% reduction in XP seems like it might be a fair way go. I'd also add in that if the game starts at 1st level that the gestalt characters start off at Apprentice level as found in he DMG. Also remember this penalty if starting at higher than 1st level. Award the players starting XP instead of everyone starting at a set level. I've taken the apprentice route many times and never had a problem. That is probably a good way to justify a gestalt character actually. I've also run characters as cohorts to higher level NPCs, the apprentices adventuring with their mentors for a while. This works well if you have a lot of low-level adventures you want to play since the PCs will only get half the XP and treasure for being cohorts, but they also have the protections of a higher level character being with them.